Hi everyone. I'm a first time poster who discovered MB and these forums last week. I was going to call this post "Confessions of a WS" because I am the WS in this case, guilty of an EA with a woman I met online a few months ago. I've been married for four years (I'm 28) and there have been intimacy problems in my marriage since the beginning. I'm not using this to justify what I've done, only to help you understand the nature of the new "relationship" I've developed. At any rate, I met someone who was in the process of ending a bad marriage, we confided in each other (when will men and women learn to stop doing that?)and developed an intense emotional attachment in the process, something I recognized happening and chose to gratify instead of running away. It was a mistake I knew I was making and one I've known I was making all along, despite the guilt, the shame, and the ruin it's made of me.<P>D-day was two weeks ago, and my wife, God bless her, understood why it happened. She's made wonderful efforts to help get us back on track that I haven't genuinely reciprocated until I discovered MB last week. No contact began a couple of days ago, and I'm enduring pretty heavy withdrawl right now (around 45 hours and counting) and I guess that's why I'm posting-to seek advice from all of you wonderful people on lifting the Fog.<P>The Fog is a powerful thing. I really didn't know I was in it until I started lurking here and reading (compulsively) the posts people have made on these forums. The Fog, by its nature, makes the OP infallible, and I managed to convince myself that the "one" for me wasn't the woman who pledged her life to me, but some faceless stranger a thousand miles away who was wonderful enough to not run away from a married man when he was too weak and stupid to run away himself. The Fog makes me believe the things that she said to me ("You and I are meant to be together, it's fate", "The problems you have in your marriage can't be fixed", "I blame your wife for everything", "Why settle for less than you deserve?" "You're afraid of losing me", "I have no doubt that we'll be together") because everything she says to me comes through a filter that stops me from being objective. All of this stuff is a crock, isn't it. Forgive how dense I am, please. I'm fighting through all of the garbage that other WS's have described so much better than me. You are all more objective than I can be right now. Please tell me what these things really mean.<P>I want to say a blanket "thank you" to the MB community. You know, for weeks I've been asking God for clarity, for someone to talk to about all of this and my footsteps were led here. It's saved my marriage and, very likely, my life. An extra special thanks to SKM, whose posts have made me understand that I had myself convinced, like so many others, that my situation was unique and that I was the one in a million person who had truly "connected" and would be happy in the end. If you ever read this, SKM, I'd like you to know I've taken your advice about actively pursuing those "loving feelings" to heart. I too sat there for months waiting for an epiphany that would suddenly restore all feelings for my wife and make me myself again. It doesn't happen that way. Thanks for helping me understand what it takes.<P>Hmmmm ... 46 hours now and counting? Small steps. I think I've spent 30 of those hours reading these posts and I intend to spend the rest of my day doing it, too. Thanks all of you for wisdom, insight, and compassion. MB is the answer to anyone who thinks the Internet can't be put to good use.

Oh, I wish my H would read this. I am the BS. It is so nice to read posts from the WSs who have come to the decision of "working on their marriages". My H said for 6 months that he was working on ours, then just 3 weeks ago told me he had only pretended so that when he went back to OW I would think he had tried and it "just didn't work out". I guess he thought I was the one in the fog.<P>Anyway -- Best wishes to you and your wife. Stay with this forum. You can gain a lot of valuable advise and many friends who completely understand what you're going through.<P>sun

Clarity? - first, consider changing your name to Clarity!!! I think you're well on the way to the right way. I wish i could get someone like you to talk to my wife.<P>Good Luck!<P>WAT

Welcome,<P>Have you read the 4 rules that the Harleys list for recovery? And the emotional needs checklist?<P>I think some wayword spouses have said that when they stoped being selfish and trying to get their needs met, and instead started to give to their spouses it helped the feelings of love return. Can you talk to your wife about following those rules and maybe consider phone counseling with the Harleys for a visit or two to set up a plan?<BR>Lora

Welcome, I agree with what everyone else has said. Since the majority at MB are BSs, we get lots of empathy, support, and encouragement here. We all go through a period of obsession with the A where we want to read everything and learn everything we can. But for a WS, it takes courage and willingness to look at yourself, something all of us have to do to rebuild our lives and our marriages, as well as risking condemnation for what you've done. All of us BSs love to have a WS's viewpoint on things to help make sense of our own feelings and situations. Thanks so much for being here.

Clarity, you are definitely on the way ... allow your brain to do the thinking and not your heart right now. Your words show a level of understanding that we all wish our WS's would come to.<P>Please, keep reading and keep posting. And read books, too! One I always like to recommend is "The Five Love Languages" and another is "Divorce Busting" in addition, of course, to Dr. Harley's "Surviving and Affair," "His Needs/Her Needs" and others.<P>Welcome...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

GOOD FOR YOU !!!!! <P>Prayer really helps! Do this twice a day. Sit next to your wife (the one who is devoted to you) ...... <P>.... hold hands..... and pray together OUT LOUD. Take turns speaking. I didn't want to do this at first ..... but my WS insisted ..... so, I begrudginly agreed to pray with him....<P>All I can say is WOW! We got soooo close to God and to each other that way..... 5 years has passed.... we still hold hands and pray aloud twice a day.<P>THAT'S my prescription for you ... to blow the crap outta the fog....... a soulful togetherness between you, your wife, and your God!<P>Best of luck!<P>------------------<BR>~*~*Yesterday~*~*<BR>all my problems seemed so far away~*<p>[This message has been edited by Yesterday (edited March 11, 2001).]

Clarity -<P>Take the "?" off your name. If you are at the point where you are at least "trying" to do things to meet your wife's needs, that's half the battle. <P>Yesterday, my H and I took a long ride in our truck. I don't get to ride in the truck too much - because it's a stick and well, I can't drive it. H wants to teach me - but I don't think I'm ready for that, yet . Anyway, we were just riding along and I unhooked my seat belt and slid over next to him. It felt so good to just sit in the darn truck with him. He was helping me move furniture to my brother - so he was doing something for me. It wasn't that he was helping me, but we were just joking and laughing - having a good time. And I told him, "I love you, I mean it. I just really love you." You should have seen the smile come across his face.<P>It's amazing the way I felt - not just yesterday - but the way I've been feeling for several months now. But it seems like there are some days - when you just are more in-tune with the way you feel. A year ago, I didn't know if I could ever "love" my H again. And, yesterday, I was about ready to cry tears of joy, just from riding in a smelly old truck with him.<P>Once you start to separate yourself from the A, from the OP - things will get a lot easier. At the time, I never thought it would help, but it has. If you have any questions, or just need to talk to someone who has been there - please feel free to post me. Sometimes, I just breeze through some of the threads without really paying attention - cause I want to help everyone, but sometimes, I don't think I have such hot advice. But I do know where the WS has been, and I have tasted the possibilities - that it can work out. So, if you ever need encouragement, let me know. Or you can do a search on my username - both here and in the recovery forum - and you can see that I probably went through the exact same things you are right now.<P>46 hours (of no contact, I assume). For me, I literally had to take it one minute at a time until I reached an hour. One hour at a time, until I reached a day, One day at a time, until I reached a week; One week at a time, until I reached a month; One month at a time, until I reached one year - and I'll be there soon. Just take small steps, make small goals - and treat yourself and your wife to something special when you reach those small goals.<P>Your wife sounds like a very special person - just like my H. You need to work as a team to get through this, but more importantly, rely on God to guide you. Take care, and I'm glad something I may have said might have helped you in some way. <BR>

Thanks so much to all of you for accepting and supporting me. I've read each of your replies probably a dozen times in the last day or so, every time I've almost cracked and needed something to keep me "level."<P>God bless you, SKM, for posting when you did. I was here at work, distraught (withdrawl) and scrambled back here to find that you had posted to me and your words put my legs beneath me a little bit again. I'm at something like 66 hours now. It has, at times, been sheer hell. It will be sheer hell again, probably very soon, and I'll run back here again, read a bit, and try to face the world again. I'm trying to find the real flaws in the OW right now, something I think will help the fog lift for me. The last time we talked she said the we needed time apart so I could figure out what I wanted, and she had been talking to someone else online for the last month and planned to meet him soon and, most likely, to sleep with him because she wasn't going to sit there and wait for me, even though this guy isn't half the person I am. My response? I understand. That seems fair. She made it sound like she was doing me a favor by giving me "space" but this weekend I've been trying to figure out what she was really saying. Was this information really just a power play to get me to make up my mind? Was she really just manipulating me? Honestly, I can't decide. I'm in the Fog and I can't think straight. Please tell me this woman is playing me.<P>Good news: yesterday, in the midst of my withdrawl hell, I watched my wife fall down the stairs. That's not good news in itself, but all thoughts were erased from my mind and I was so scared for her and protective of her that I started shaking and I ran to her and held her. Must be love! <P>I'm fighting, folks, really. Some day I hope, like SKM, that I can recover and maybe provide the WS perspective for all of you. At this point I'm no one to give advice, but I anticipate the day when I can be. Thanks so very much for listening, not judging, and helping. I'm going to need all of you.

You are a strong person! Congratulations for making the decision to do the right thing. I know you don't feel so strong now, but you are getting through it. You have even found a relief valve (this forum) to take some of the strain and pressure of you so your W doesn't have to see or deal with all of it. You have a lot to be proud of.<P>As for trying to see the OW in another light. We Bss could be a real help there. Seriously though, OW's actions do sound manipulative. She's telling you she's going to go meet some other man and have sex with him if you don't behave. This certainly does not sound like "true love"!!!<P>You hang in there and post every time you get the "shakes" and we'll help talk you through it.

Clarity -<P>Keep coming back here to read versus thinking of the OW. I will be here as long as you wnat!! <P>For me, when I had thoughts of the OM - when I felt lik eI just had to call him, just to see how he was doing, I would physically go for a walk, buy a soda, buy a candy bar for my H, take the stairs to the bottom of the building and walked all the way to the top of the building (14 floors - that'll take your mind off the OP and onto your aching bones!) Do anything to physically remove yourself from the temptation of calling the OP. The thoughts may still be there, but at least you have no physical means of contacting her. Believe me, it sounds silly, but it does work. It's like being on a diet - you really think you need that chocolate bar, but you don't - do some situps instead.<P>Also, you mentioned about your wife falling downt he stairs - first, I hope she is okay, but secondly, that's when I would really start to "come out of it." At the place you are now - I was there, too. At the time, I imagined wha I would do if my H were no longer in my life. We don't have any kids - so if we were to get divorced - for all intents and purposes, we probably wouldn't have any contact with each other. I know we would both profess to "trying to remain friends," but in reality, I know the pain would be too great for my H and for me.<P>So, whenever I thought about leaving my H for the OM - or continuing the A - I basically thought about my H "not being there." I know it sounds morbid, but I actually pictured my H as being dead - how would I feel, how would my life be. At the time - even during the height of the A - if the OM were to die - I would have been sad. But, if my H would have died, I would have been absolutely devastated. And, those kinds of thoughts - what would I do whitout my H - well, those are the kinds of thoughts that helped me to refocus on him. <P>My H is unequivocally my best friend. So, when I pictured my life without him I couldn't even begin to imagine how I would start each day, who I would kiss each night, who would put up with me - I mean the OM was nice enough (and that's subject to speculation) but he is not half the man my H is. The OM - well, I couldn't trust him as far as I could throw him - after all he was messing around with a married woman - So untrustworthy. Secondly, the OM was younger than me, and pretty immature. He thought women existed to serve his needs (yes, I was being played. I wanted to believe that he truly loved me, that we were meant to be together, but it's just not the case. He was a nice - again open to speculation - but I doubt he would have been the kind of guy I would have married had I been single.)<P>So, keep focusing ont hose negative traits of the OP. If you can't think of any - I'm sure you will eventually. I also thought of what the perfect H would be like. I started listing all the traits that I thought the perfect H would possess - and you know what - my H already possessed most of those, and the other traits that I listed - well, those can be learned. I know I can't change anyone, but my H already possessed the things that can't be changed - we only had to work on things like spending time together, etc. . . The OM - well, he never evan came close. For me, trust has always been a big issue with me (believe it or not) - so when it came right down to it - I couldn't trust the OM either.<P>The OM used to tell me all the time about the "big plans" he had for the weekend. It was like he was either trying to make me jealous - or he was trying to make himself out to be this all-popular, all-desireable stud muffin. So, I never knew if he was telling me the truth - or was just using it to manipulate me - who knows, and I really don't care right now.<P>So, think about these things. What do you want/need in a wife? And then rank those characteristics by importance - and you'll probably find that your wife already possesses those and the OW - well, she's just talk. I meand, she's unknown. . . Your wife has already proven that she is willing to stick by you - in good times and in bad - how would this OW react if she were in the same situation? You probably don't know - so, some traits - your wife may already have demonstrated (known factors) and the OW hasn't (unknown) - so why give up on the known "winner" for a long shot?<P>It's not like you're comparing the OW to your wife, and if there are any BSs reading - thinking this is ridiculous - it's just a tactic I used to separate myself fromt he "addiction like" state of being in the fog/coming through withdrawl. Because the affair is a fantasy - you have to look at things in real terms - try to project in the future, and then I realized that I already had everything that I wanted with my H.<P>Clarity - If you feel like you need to email someone - email me skm_mb@hotmail.com. I can be your emergency fallback. Really, when I first started on this website, another WS reached out to me, and it actually made going through no contact easier. We actually made a pact with each other to no contact the OM for 1 year - and so far, I have been true to that. (I know, sound kind of ironic that I can keep a promise to a friend, but broke a vow with my H - I can't explain it, but it did help).<P>So, whatever you're feeling right now, promise me you won't contact the OW for 2 months. If you can stay away from the OW for at least two months - I think your perspective will change - it won't seem like an emergency and you'll even begin to feel like the feelings are beginning to fade. It's taken me a long time to stop thinking about the OM - but after two months of absolutely no contact - I really did begin to develop a new perspective.<P>Clarity - look at what the OW is saying she isn't going to "sit around and wait for you." She has either (1) moved on already or (2) hasn't fallen for you as deeply as you thought. Now is the time that you HAVE to pull out of this. Get control of yourself and pull the plane back up out of that downward spiral. The OW has already given you the answer - she's not willing to wait, you're not worth it to her. Your wife, in the meantime, is willing to try and reconcile the worst possible thing that could happen in a marriage. Now, I ask you, who is worth your effort - the OW or your wife? You can do this. . .

Clarity, I can't add much to the advice you got from SKM, but I can say that everything she says seems to be true for my H who is not quite at the same place you are, but trying to break it off with OW. His pain over losing her is difficult for me to bear, but MB has helped me so much through this. <P>My H still lives with OW. The weekend before last they got in a fight about him seeing me. They were at a bar and she threatened to go home with someone else. He told her ok, but she didn't go. <P>Last Thursday night he picked a fight with her causing her to leave momentarily in anger and then he left and went to a motel. I met him there and he was totally distraught. The next day he went back to get his stuff while she was gone, but she was also distraught and got her H to drive her all over town to find my H, and finally found him back at home. I knew something was up when he didn't return or call and for the first time ever, I went to their house and found them together in the bath tub. My H's first response was to yell at me for intruding. Then he jumped up, got dressed, and tried to drive away from both of us, but OW threw herself into the back of his pick-up naked from the waist down. When she got out of the truck, OW tried to hug me but I pushed her away. What does she want? Absolution? <P>After everything calmed down we talked. OW was trying to get my H to make a commitment one way or the other, but he wouldn't. BTW, OW had the truck keys and threatened to flush them down the toilet if he left. <P>I finally left. When I thought later about what had been said, I believed H was trying to tell her gently that he had to go. Unfortunately the message was more like I was an obligation and he loved her but knew their relationship would never work. <P>I called him later to tell him I trusted him and knew it was hard for him and to take his time, but try to let me know what was happening. Well I didn't hear from him for 24 hours and was seriously doubting myself and him when he showed up at my house yesterday afternoon. He'd made another failed attempt to leave the night before and has another plan for today. OW barely lets him out of her sight. <P>Despite all of her crazy behavior (appears so to me anyway) and the fact that he's 48 and she's 22, married with a 3 y.o. D, very overweight (50 pounds larger than he is and he's a big guy) and unattractive (not just my opinion) he still feels in love with her.<P>From what he says though, I think the same things worked for him as for you and SKM. He told me early on that although he didn't mind being separated from me right now, he couldn't imagine not growing old with me and couldn't imagine life without me. <P>When he was here during his aborted escape, OW called looking for him and started crying to me about her hurt. I'm normally pretty self-contained (maybe too much so) but I just lost it and yelled at her that her hurt did not even come close to the hurt she and my H had caused me. I hung up and continued yelling at my H for a minute, but then ran out of the room to make myself stop. He came out, avoiding me, so I ran back in the bedroom and just sobbed for about 20 minutes. He came back and comforted me and apologized for all the hurt he caused (and continues to cause) me.<P>Even though you don't feel ready to give advice, it helps to read what you're going through and what SKM went through to keep a perspective on my H's behavior. Otherwise, it seems so hurtful that I have a hard time not getting angry or wanting to hurt him back. Thanks<P>P.S. I just got a call from work (we own a business together) and an emergency came up, which is foiling the break-up plan for today...oh well, I've hung on this long...

Dear Clarity,<P>You are a brave person and have given you and your spouse the chance for a good recovery. I am glad you have come here to share your feelings and work on restoring your marriage. Many of your statements are similar to what my H was said and is saying. It is difficult to know how to help my H since the constant struggle in his soul is pulling him away from his family. <P>Please do not stop posting here. This board is made up of members from the entire spectrum of this issue. Much has been learned by all who come here. There are probably many more that are just reading the posts and not commenting yet, so your words have reached a vast audience. I do not mean to embarress you, your experience is of great benefit to the BS's like myself. It is good to see that there is hope for those lost in the 'fog' of their A.<P>Your minutes will turn into hours, days, weeks, months and soon you will be able to look back to see the continued progress. This will aid in your recovery and minimize the pain you and yours are currently feeling. My H has said he is trying to find something bad in the OW to make him stop wanting her. While I would like him to find that bad thing, I realize that H must want the good thing more than just finding the bad. My H has made excuses for all the bad things he did find out about the OW (bad temper, foul mouth, jealous of our son, threatening communication to his family, playing him on his emotions by threatening to go out with other men to make him come running back to her, etc.), so I know that this in itself is not enough. I am at a loss on how to help him further so I have turned to the posts of members on this board and often sent him their messages. It has helped somewhat. <P>My H is basically a kind and gentle man. It hurts me so to see him in such a distraught state. There is little I can do at this point since he keeps wanting a divorce because he considers himself a 'bad husband and bad father'. Irregardless of how much support we try to give him, his guilt keeps pushing him away from us and he feels too weak to fight it. But I have not given up all hope, I am just very tired and weak from having to be the one enduring all this pain and still keep the family running. Everyday is a struggle for all the BS's also. The pain suffered here is shared by all in different degrees. Even our children, family and friends are suffering. God is also hurt at heart seeing the breakup of another family. <P>So please, keep posting and I wish you well on your recovery. <P>L.<BR>

You asked for perspective on OW. OK, I'll give you some.<P>She sounds like a tramp. Too harsh?<P>OK...she is getting a divorce. Undoubtedly all her H's fault...right? Do you believe that? I would almost bet money she was unfaithful in her marriage. In any event, if he is not a drunk or physically abusive, she at least shares the blame for the failure of her marriage.<P>And exactly how likely is it that she's marriage as a sacred commitment "as long as we both shall live" thing? I would guess it is closer to a "as long as we have tingly feelings" thing.<P>Even if she is the innocent in her marriage, which I do not believe, do you think a person of moral character would try to entice a married man to leave his family?<P>And she doesn't seem to value her own body much. Is it acceptable to you that she would sleep with "half a man" because she is tired of waiting? Sorry, in my book that's plain trampy.<P>And honestly, who do you think is her first priority. If you answer "I am" you would be wrong. Her first priority is herself. Big Time.<P>Now what kind of person is your wife. You don't specify your problems, but can you imagine her acting in such a manner as this OW? Or is she a person of honor?<P>Really I don't often trash people, and I am usually pretty nice, but I was left with my mouth hanging open.

FaithHopeLove, thanks for responding on the character question, and continued thanks to all of you for insight and support. I agree with your opinion on the OW's behavior (I can't condemn since I was so willing to believe and even encourage the things she said) and welcome any other insight on what's going on here.<P>My wife is an angel. I've never met a more beautiful person in every way, and she certainly wouldn't behave this way. I've been an utter fool (which I expect will really and painfully hit me as I continue to come out of this). Keep talking to me, all of you. You're all doing wonders for my sanity.<P>SKM-thanks for sharing your email address. I'll keep it in my back pocket just in case.

I am glad you did not take great offense. And although you certainly are not blameless, you are walking away.<P>I would guess what you did was "out of character" for you, which does not make it OK, but is easier to fix than a character flaw.<P>So if your wife is an angel, what is the sourse of your vunerability in your marriage? What do you mean by intimacy problems?

No, I am not blameless and I don't intend to appear blameless. My very involvement in any of this is shameful and, honestly, my involvement with OW was innocent enough in the beginning. I'm reluctant to go into the particulars of my marriage (seems to undermine my wife's right to privacy), but we had sexual incompatibility problems that, in retrospect, were logical and could have been solved, but instead of giving my best effort I accepted validation from another source. To be honest, I felt unwanted and undesired, and when someone else gave an indication of finding me desirable I was hooked. An addiction, right? I did the same for OW who really was in a terrible marriage, and the connection blossomed from mutually validating each other. I knew it was happening and didn't stop it. She didn't stop it either, but I take full responsibility.<P>My wife and I have talked and are talking about the things that we should have done differently. I let bitterness ruin any attempt at fixing our problems. OW didn't intend for this to happen any more than I did. We handled things very badly and now I'm doing my suffering for what I did. I don't think any relationship has a future that is rooted in regret. I'm coming to grips with how I've deluded myself.<P>Thanks to everyone, again.

Clarity,<BR>I absolutely agree that you were 100% responsible for having an affair. So was OW. Your wife had 0 responsibility for your poor choices.<P>However, she shares responsibility with you for the state the marriage was in when you started the affair.<P>Right now it sounds like you don't think things will work out with your wife, but maybe its just a bad day. Try looking at the larger picture.<P>Sure I could be wrong, but your OW sounds a little too calculated and manipulated to believe she did not intend for this too happen. I think the only thing she regrets is that you backed away or your wife found out before she had her wretched claws into for good.

I don't mean to imply that I don't think things can work out with my wife. When I say I don't think a relationship that is rooted in regret can work, I'm talking about a possible future with OW. I have faith that my marriage can thrive now that we really see how dangerous our issues are. We're both working at change here, genuinely now, and I think our willingness will help us. I know I have a lot of work to do. A frightening amoung of work, really, and I wonder how many WS's give up hope not only because they have affairs to end and withdrawl to face, but because they know the problems in the marriage that created the atmosphere for the affair still have to be solved. It's so much work, and facing it at the weakest time in your life seems impossible.<P>I don't know about OW's intentions or what was calculated and what wasn't. I'm trying to focus on me and my wife and doing what I know is right and what I've known is the right thing for a long time. I have a lot to do.

Good.<P>And it really doesn't matter what the OW's motivations are, but it does help to see the ugly underbelly of a situation.<P>Even if she were Mother Thersa normally, it really doesn't matter.<P>Your marriage matters. And since your marriage has no room for another person, that very fact means OW cannot matter.<P>Even if you share the guilt of the affair and feel badly that she got "hurt", you simply are not the person to fix it. The biggest favor you can do for her is ignore her.