That should get someone's attention!!!. But seriously, I read more than I post, and there seems to be a group of us, both WS and BS that are trying to put our lives back together and find happiness...hopefully with our partners, but maybe without. This is a possibility that I'm dealing with now. (Do a search under my name for the particulars). It would be nice to have some guidance on maintaining mental health while this is going on. I'm not being very plain...let me rephrase..I'm in a place now where, while I'm trying to love my partner as much as possible, I'm trying to love myself more. I'm not giving up on us, but I seem to have been able to "let go" of the frustrations, suspicions, and general bad emotions concerning the A. I cannot change or be responsible for any actions, thoughts, or emotions but my own. I want to be my best friend. I feel my need for him slipping away, but not my love. I feel a freedom now that is a little confusing. While this is a disordered sort of post, I'm wondering if others experienced this sort of personal growth. <BR>Any others like me out there?<BR>T

Twyla,<P>YOU HAVE BEEN READING MY MIND!!! I am right by your side. I feel almost the exact same way. Its like I have turned a new corner-friends, family and my counselor have also noticed. I do have my bad moments still but they are getting less and less. I feel myself getting stronger and stronger as an individual....I understand that I am still very vulnarable so I am keeping to myself and growing and liking myself. Yes-I had faults in the marriage but I was willing to work on them-stbx h chose to have an A...since he has filed against I believe he has chosen his own destiny and I need to star looking out for myself and getting to know myself in a healthy way....

Exactly!!!! We're supposedly in recovery, although all the signs and symptoms of him resuming the affair are there. And it's not that I don't care, because I do, and would like to build our future together, but realistically, my first priority is my happiness. I can't, and don't want to tell him how to love or live. And I will continue to love him, although I don't feel the burning desire to keep him at all costs. I want him to be happy also. I want us to both stay for the right reason, not because we feel obligated. So I almost feel content, and as time goes on if nothing changes, I know my love will fade enough for me to walk away with some beautiful memories and be ok. Be better than OK, because I have spent this time learning about myself and my values. <BR>Still make sense to you?<BR>T

Twyla-That's something I also noticed with myself. When I first found MB, my main goal was how to get him back. Thru reading, learning, growing & praying. . it became so much more than that. I found myself being happy most of the time, even while the A was going on (pretty sure it's over now). I did not like the A, or the feelings it gave me, but I liked me. I wanted him back, but knew I would be ok if he chose not to. I felt stronger. Other people also noticed changes in me. . someone described it as an inner peace. I will say, I did not have to try to continue loving him. . it grew even deeper. I also just wanted him to be happy. . I knew he was struggling and did not want him to hurt anymore either. In fact, had he told me that he was happy with OW & she was what he wanted-I would have said go. Not in anger, out of caring. It's a strange place to be, but for me it wasn't bad. I am in control, of me, not of the situation and I'm trying to make the best out of it, as opposed to seeing only the worst. Feel proud of who you are becomming.

Twyla<P>I also have started to feel those feelings. I still love my husband and I still want my marriage, I know NOW, that I can take care of me and my 3 kids. I will go on and survive and I will continue to grow and change to be a better me. <P>There a things I want to continue to work on regarding myself and this has actually given me a "goal" to be the best that I can be and not be ashamed or embarrassed that my H had an A. I am alot stronger than I actually thought I was and I am not as "needy" and "depressed" (medication helps) anymore. If I don't take care of my kids, Who Will? Not their father, not in his present state of selfishness. <P>Part of me is also afraid that if this path continues the way it is, then I too will just fade in my love for him and just be able to go on without him, without regrets. But I guess that is what Plan A and Plan B are for. I never thought of myself as a quitter but now I really no that I do have morals and values and there are some things that are "really worth fighting" for. <P>YOu are right, I don't want him back either because he feels obligated, but because he wants to and it is the right thing to do. Staying and working thru takes more courage than giving up. <P>I am not ready to give up.<P>Hopelessmom

You give me hope. Right now the "light at the end of my tunnel" looks very vague. But, I'm still real new to this compared to may postings I read. Do you mind telling me how far you are away from your time of confrontation with WS? It may give me a little mor perspective. Thanks. G

G-<BR>Not that far really...Found out about the A 12/18. Plan A until mid Feb, then gave him plan B letter. No contact for about a week, then he came back and said it was over. For about 2-3 weeks I think it was, then contact of some sort resumed. This is when I decided to simply give up trying to control "us" and work on me. After a couple weeks of this, peace just sort of descended. Understand that I still see him and love him, but when he leaves and I know he's probably with her, I just think, "well, this is his choice, not mine". I'm not saying that it doesn't hurt, I'm saying that it doesn't hurt as much. Giving up the "why is he doing this?" or "why am I not good enough?" and replacing it with "I'm sorry he's doing this" and "I hope he's able to be happy"is a big turn around for me. Funny, I saw him last night, (we were supposed to be together yesterday and when the excuses started coming up in the AM, I knew what was going on) and he said that many people had said how good I looked recently and he has noticed almost a glow. He also said that people had asked how we were doing, and his reply was that "T is doing fine". He said he realized driving over, that I was doing fine, but he wasn't, as WE weren't. At this point he started crying, so I just comforted him. I told him that I was there for him, that I know he's confused, and that it was ok. I didn't ask why..just let him volunteer what he would and listened. Many issues came up..instead of trying to solve them for him, just let him know that he's a good man and will find his own happiness his way, and that it was ok.<BR>Strange night, but a good example of letting go with love.<BR>T

Twyla,<BR>Mind being a role model??? I've been so inconsistant and confused feeling that I don't even believe I'll follow through with what I say anymore. But, I've tried again...he's to tell me by tomorrow if he's willing to make arrangements not to work where she is anymore. I feel certain that I know what his decision will be (I've been listening to the excuses of why he can't/won't do that for 2 months). Now, will I follow through with what I said I would do if he does I what I expect him to??? I feel like I've got to do something to convince he and I both that us not being together any more could really be the outcome here. I keep trying to hang on to hope...he mostly seems to want to stay married but all on his terms. And his terms are crap! I'm still praying for strength and guidance. I've got to begin to move forward!!! I'm making me crazy!<BR>You sound like such a strong, brave, smart and compassionate person. I want that for he and I too.<BR>G.

twyla,<P>Whether it's Plan A, B, or C, you are where I wish I was. Our counselor recommended some books to us, one of which- Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch, professes that each person must be responsible for his or her own happiness. Now we all know this, but do we live that way? I know I haven't always, I have depended on others for part of it. My counselor is trying to get me to stop focusing on H or on the relationship (H is WS) and start to work on myself. She says H is and I should, and then we have an even better chance of wanting to be together, not just being together because we were before. <P>I'm sorry I don't know the details of your history, but if it has anything to do with a MLC on your H's part, Conways' books on that subject also say that the wife should work on herself while the H is working on himself. Plan A is also about becoming stronger and happier with yourself, Plan B is living that without the other person, at least for a while. <P>Well, I guess I just wanted to say I'm glad you're there and happy with yourself, I hope to get to that place soon too. <P>mmcw

Dear Twyla,<P>You have created a 'new haven' for the inbetween. Those who are not quite in recovery but still need support. For me H is going down the Divorce path and I need to let him go there on his own. I am resolving myself to that decision this week. So the timing of your post is perfect!!<P>During this whole incident, A discovered in Nov 00, EA been going on since Aug 00 & PA since Sept 00, H been having one nighters since Sept 99, I learned of MB since about Jan 01. I have learned what was my contribution to the issues in our marriage, where the responsibility lies for each of us to fix or break our marriage and where the support for each of us resides. Right now, H is out there on his own with only the OW as a contact person. His anger and frustration at the situations he creates are no longer going to be my concern to resolve. I do care for H but can no longer carry his burden. He needs to grow up and carry his own responsibility. OW wants to care for him, let her. <P>In another post, the OW claimed in an e-mail to me, to care for H (& I quote):<P>"I've taken cared of Keith with the quality that has been incredible for him.... He will live longer with me, have true kinship with me, and a real friendship with me. "<P>Not sure what 'incredible' means, H has lost about 20 lbs and looks sickly. Been that way since about 2 months after their A began. Guess this is the kind of man she wants. <P>H shows constant anger and does not appreciate the load I have been carrying for him all this time and even now. I carry the family's medical and other insurances for all of us. His company does not provide that kind of coverage. I am debating on keeping him on the policy prior to the divorce. One of the reasons it is soo difficult for me is that he recently strained his back and knee and has been going to the doctor. H does not have the means ($) to get his own coverage. So where is the OW giving him that care that is 'incredible' for him? Not sure. <P>Yet he has abused me verbally and threatened me to the point that the police had to be called. Then he turns around and tells me that he 'loves me.' Go figure. One confused man. <P>Tough love. No contact. Difficult to do. Hard to watch. But something that must be done. I gotta go on with our lives. <P>Thanks for creating this post. <P>L.<P>

GAJ-I know about empty promises...they are what drag you down. And dealing with someone you love that only sees their own needs makes you feel so insignificant..and that's when you need to focus on yourself the most..you are not insignificant..you will be with yourself for the rest of your life. So let go of reacting to him, and act on yourself. You can't convince him of anything, any more then he can convince you. Let go and let him find out for himself where his happiness lies, and you search inside for yours.<BR>MMCW- I haven't found that book, but like the concept and I think your therapist is right on the mark. Be excited about this...it's your time to explore all the stuff you've thought about and never tried. I'm not sure what a MLC is...please explain.<BR>Orchid-I'm so sorry you had to go through the abuse..sometimes I think verbal is worse..words take longer to fade then bruises. Part of letting go and just loving is realizing that appreciation for the things we do may never be forthcoming. That's when my love seems to fade a little. I explained it to him like a fire. When we first met, love was like a bonfire- flaming bright and sparks flying through the air. As love deepens, it becomes more like hot coals that burn long and steady with the knowledge that another log could easily recreate the flames of passion. We tended our fire so well, but eventually got tired of hauling firewood, or thought we, as individuals, were carrying more than our fair share. And so, the fire burns down, smoke starts to burn our eyes. One of us stayed and stared but did nothing, the other went in search of a new fire. The embers are barely alive, but glow whenever one of us breathe some life into them, we don't really want it to go completely out, but unless we both add fuel, it will eventually extinquish. Loving him without expecting anything in return is my way of keeping some embers alive so that restarting may be possible. This provides my warmth. Everytime I get a little stronger the embers goal and almost start to burn again. Eventually I will have to get more fuel. I need to be strong enough to carry my own load until someone else stops to help. Will he be my partner, or will someone else help carry the load? Either way, unless I stay strong, and tend this glow that has become mine, it will extinquish. <BR>Kind of a long simile. Do for him anything that you are willing to do because of your love. If providing him medical coverage makes you happy because it eases his burden..fine. If doing so only to get his reaction or appreciation, you will only cause yourself more unhappiness. <BR>Thanks for the support from all of you. We all sound like survivors in our own ways. Let's keep it up.<BR>T <BR>

Twyla,<P>MLC stands for midlife crisis. H is 45, I am 41, prime age for such a thing. His A is just one symptom. Jim and Sally Conway have written some excellent books on this topic. Website is <A HREF="http://www.midlife.com." TARGET=_blank>www.midlife.com.</A> I learned this from someone else on this site, can't remember who. <P>Did you do anything specifically to help yourself grow and bring yourself to this inner peace? I'm afraid I'm one of those people who needs a roadmap to get somewhere. Unfortunately I don't think there is one, since it is different for each person, but I keep searching. I've read everything in sight on relationships, and that has been helpful, but...<P>Any suggestions would be welcome. <P>Thanks. <P>

MMCW- LOL...I knew that..guess my half-heimers kicked in! MLC...hmmm could be-he's 60, I'm 45, OW about 33. I think it's more of a life crisis. he's always been a workaholic and more likely not to react to problems..he'd rather let them simmer and either fade away, or delegate them to someone else. That does relieve one of a certain responsibilty, n'est ce pas? He doesn't mind taking credit, but hates to take blame, and I think he's been doing some hindsight, and has found that his personal life has been a series of reactions rather than actions. He's never really taken control like he has with his profession. Now, he feels completely out of control and is so confused. He loves me, he loves her, but he hates himself for the indecision of it all. I love him, and I'm sure she does too. But, instead of being satisfied with crumbs like before, I want the whole loaf! And I never had enough self confidence to believe I deserved it. But we all do and if we need to be strong enough to believe it. How to get to this state. Well, I looked at where I was when we first fell in love. I was athletic, and that had definately declined(spent all my spare time with him) so I started walking and swimming again...love it even more now. Music is a love that he doesn't share, and I've gone to some concerts, or taken CD's to the beach for a private symphony. I just made a list of all the things I've ever enjoyed or wanted to do someday then I scheduled my time. Actually asked for and got 1/2 day off every Wed (told them it was for therapy)and I use this as my time...nothing else is allowed to interfere...even him. I knew my nutrition sucked, so I made changes...getting those 8/day fruit and veggies now. When triggers come up I say to myself.."you are a trigger..I choose not to think of you" (that took some work.) Thoughts of the affair are banished with "go back to the past where you belong..I'm in the present now and you are not going to screw up my future!" If I was having a lot of down thoughts, I purposely made myself smile at other people..they always smile back, so that's a big bolster. When he's obviously making excuses I usually stop him with a smile and say"It's ok..I'm ok..you do what you need to do to be happy. I don't need explanations...we're both human beings with the right to make our own happiness" or something like it. During the last 4 weeks I have lost my Mother and I often think of the way I was loved by her...I try to incorporate that into dealings with my staff..She always said "it will never hurt you to be nice"- my typical short commands at work have been replaced with pleases and thank yous, and I find one thing to compliment someone on each day-sincerely. It maybe as little as "you've got a great smile" to "I've noticed how hard you're trying and I really appreciate it" The response is tremendous and knowing that someone noticed even the little insignificant details make others feel great. It makes me feel good too. Great glow...lasts all day long.<BR>I journal...it could be thoughts of him or me or other events in my life, it could be anger, it could be a list of all the great things I am, it could be all the things I love about him, or all the things I hate. My favorite is one-liners that are definately LB, but feel so good to get out. Occasionally I'll write him a letter...not necessarily a love letter...more like a life letter..good feelings I've had, why I loved my Mom...differnet stuff that I just wanted to share with him as if we never had this A come between us. I did have problems sleeping...seems like the negative stuff bombards at night, so I had my MD give me sleeping pills for a week or two..getting a good 8 hours really helps the attitude...Wow, this got long!...tell me to shut up already! Anybody else got good stuff to share? Always open to a new interest!<BR>T

Twyla,<BR>What you have to say is giving me so much food for thought and comfort. Thank you again! I think I did pretty well with WS yesterday, and a lot of that came from the calm I gained in listening to you and the others here. Without crying or yelling (he doesn't take seriously much of what I say when I'm "emotional"), I told him that I was not going to interfere with his job or hers, that I hoped by them having more time to spend together without threats hanging over their heads, he'd have a better chance to decide who/what he really wanted. In the meantime, I'm going to file for a legal seperation (an option in our state, says you're still trying to work things out, but I'll be assured of the financial support he's agreed to and what we've already been doing custodywise, made legally binding). I told him that if he could ever come back and tell me that he was sure that me and this family were his top priorities, we'd see about working on "us" being possible again. Until then, he's on his own and so am I. He accepted this fairly well. He wanted to leave legal aspect out of our agreement. I said that wasn't an option. I told him that I loved him, and he said he loves me. But, I made it clear that I wanted all or nothing. And that includes her not continuing to be his "friend" and us making a lot of changes in what our relationship was like before the A. <BR>And thank you for reinforcing that the way for me not to let this eat me alive and for me to enjoy life while he works out his deliema (sp?) is for me to go and do and enjoy the things that I enjoy, especially the things that being with him made difficult for me to do! I feel a little like I'm moving forward!!! Kinda of scared of feeling good, superstious that it brings on the devil's wrath (figure of speech), and I'll have to feel bad again soon.<BR>G.<BR>PS Talk about your long postings!

GAJ!!!<BR>That sounds like you've done some real soul-searching> I'm proud of you! Now get a little excited about your life...get out and do those things..don't just think about them. Be available to talk to him if he requests, but don't make him the priority. Listen, and continue to let him know by your actions that you love him, you will wait for his confusion to end, but you are going on with your life. Come back here for any weeping and anger. Special thoughts from me to you today!<BR>T

Twyla,<BR>Thanks for the encouragement! My daughter and I are about to load up with a group from church to go hear one of our favorite contemorary christian groups. Bye for now.<BR>G.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Twyla:<BR><B>...I want to be my best friend. I feel my need for him slipping away, but not my love. I feel a freedom now that is a little confusing. I'm wondering if others experienced this sort of personal growth. Any others like me out there?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>YES! This is growth! This is healing! This is forgiveness! This is losing that sense of obsession that keeps us blind to our own needs. As you said, this is freedom. Enjoy it!<BR>

Thanks Medea!<BR>I was thinking today..I'm 45. For the first 20 years of my life I was a real fire-cracker...bundle of energy! That faded during a 10 year marriage to a nice person, but definately the wrong guy. It came back again after the divorce and then faded again in this relationship. Hindsight is 20/20..in both relationships I tried to become what I thought they wanted instead of staying where I was happy. That is a real revelation for me, and one I won't soon forget. Gotta share this... Today I saw 2 patients that I hadn't seen since their yearly Pap last year and they didn't know who I was!!! One said "you used to look so matronly...now you're gorgeous!" The other just said that "you are glowing"! Hmmmmm I feel great!<BR>Good weekend to all..see you next week!<BR>T

TWYLA and all,<P>I've written a lot recently on the In Recovery board. I believe that <I>Plan C</I> is a very important step towards recovery. You need to recover yourself before you can recover the marriage.<P>I stopped focusing on my marriage (white knuckling it per se) and started working on myself in October 2000 when my H was still in a fog and told me he hadn't been working at all in our marriage (we'd only been married since January 2000 - how sad is that).<P>It was at that point that I stopped obsessing about what he was or wasn't doing, because like you said, you can only change yourself.<P>I stuck with Plan A, but I stopped reading marriage books and started reading self enhancement books or novels that I enjoyed (I read for the fun of it again). I started making contact with girlfriends I had put off and I created some new ones as well and I started meeting them for coffee and conversation.<P>Up until this point I'd been using over-the-counter sleep aids to tune my H out since he deliberately did things to make me panic. I was losing control and self-respect. I wasn't sleeping much and my work productivity was way down.<P>My H took notice and came to me in late December 2000 to apologize and he promised this year would be so much better for me... for us!<P>I believe we have been in true recovery since the beginning of this year. He's made himself accountable on his own and calls me frequently. We have had some really great conversations and even some great laughs, which he has initiated.<P>I've found Oprah very inspirational! My sister bought me a 1-year subscription for her magazine for my birthday last year and I look forward to each month's issue. Sometimes I think issues were put together with me in mind as the articles are truly about what I'm experiencing or need. One month was all about self esteem. If you haven't read an issue browse through one and see what you think.<P>It sounds as though you are truly on the brink of having peace and calm in yourself and in your life! Isn't it great? <P>I wish you continued success in self recovery and marital recovery!<P> <P>P.s... I just found my Plan C post from last year: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/001700.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/001700.html</A> <BR>------------------<BR><B><I>RECOVER * REFOCUS * REGENERATE ~ BREATHE * RELAX</I></B><P>By Eleanor Roosevelt ~~<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR><LI>"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is built." <P><LI>"No one takes advantage of you without your permission."<BR></UL><p>[This message has been edited by Free2BMe (edited March 24, 2001).]

Dear Free2B-<BR>I think you're right, and I read your postings...the best thing I can say about this plan C is that my self-esteem is getting so much stronger. I never realized how much it had diminished of the past 3-4 years. Reconnecting with friends and new friends has been really gret...didn't realize how rusty I was at socializing.<BR>Tace care,<BR>T