Hi, All..<BR>Please help me! I am sooo stumped. It is fairly obvious that my H is having some kind of affair. I've even found a love letter from the OW to him, but his explanation is "I've never seen that letter before." Ditto for all of the other things I've gone on to find, including the charge for a motel room on a day and time he had no reason to be there; at least 2 articles of women's apparel that are NOT mine; and the fact that he has distanced himself from me so much so that I hardly even know him any more.<P>What's my problem?? He staunchly denies any involvement with her or anyone else. Everything has such a "pat" answer, according to him and really, if you look at it through his eyes, he does look totally innocent. BUT...I know that he is NOT the same towards me anymore, and the level of secrecy in his life now is at an all time high. All these things are so unlike him, or the "him" I used to know. His every nuance, every word to me and his benign neglect of me is just silently screaming "I am in love with someone else!" I just cannot get him to admit it.<P>So...where do I go from here?? How can we ever get back on track, or even hope to save our marriage when he refuses to be honest with me? I'm sorry, but I take this as a severe from of emotional abuse. I've been living in limbo these past 8 months and certainly do NOT feel loved by him. He refuses to make any decisions, such as leaving for a trial separation, and just intends to go on his merry way, doing whatever it is he is doing and I'm just supposed to go along and accept his behavior. NOT! I am one click away from seeing a lawyer, but don't want to look like an idiot when I have to say to her "No, I can't prove he is being unfaithful...it's just a major hunch, followed by a string of things/events/incidences that all point to it."<P>What would any of you do? Can you offer me any advice at all? Many thanks...<BR>Windancer

My H was involved in an emotional affair last year and let me tell you, if my eyes had been open to the possibility that he could do this,I would have seen. Never underestimate the power of denial.<BR>Boy, I don't know what to tell you. I asked him, point blank, after the EA went to PA. I KNEW and he still lied.<BR>One of his friends got him to admit to it and a little bit of the secret revealed took some of the "bloom" off the rose, I think. He realized that if that guy figured it out, I would too.Changed the texture of his "romantic" thing.<P>Ask him,tell him you know something is wrong, suggest counseling,tell him you miss him. My H didn't come clean til I told him I was through waiting for him to "make up his mind". Not suggesting that to you, just saying what happened here. <BR>Really, if it looks like a dog and smells like a dog, it's probably a dog. So sorry for your pain. AND I SO hope you're wrong

I'm so sorry. I went through alot of the same things. Never ever thought my H would have A--ever. All the signs pointed to it, but he always had excuses and said he knows it looks bad, but he's not doing anything wrong. Always said "you have no proof". Well I got proof, not on my own though. <P>If you've read much through this site, you've probably heard about the 'fog' the WS is going through. That is where your H is.<P>The 'proof' is what shook my H out of fog.<P>Are you very good at snooping or detective work? I felt like I became a P.I. when we were going through this. And by the way, you CAN recover from this. Be strong.<P>I think I read another post of yours--WS is wayward spouce and BS is betrayed spouce. It is very confusing at first.<P>Good luck. And keep us posted.

I recall reading something on Peggy Vaughan's site ( <A HREF="http://www.askpeggy.com" TARGET=_blank>www.askpeggy.com</A> ) about confronting. Most spouses having an affair will lie.<P>I don't think you need to snoop, you've already found what you need. <P>First you need to decide what you want to do. Do you want to try to save your marriage? If so, then assume that he is having an affair and that he's lying. Then you need to get it out into the open.<P>Why is your H lying? Because he doesn't want to leave you for OW. In all likelihood he doesn't know what he wants. You do NOT have to just suck it up and take it. <P>You need a two-pronged approach. First of all, you need to look inside yourself and try to see what your H is missing in your marriage that he has gone elsewhere. No, this is not blaming yourself for the affair, but IN MOST CASES these things don't happen in a vacuum. Your H is not likely to tell you at this point, but I'll bet you can guess. In my case, it was easy. My H needs lots of attention and recreation time spent together in warm weather. Once I addressed those, I started making progress.<P>The second thing you need to do is get this out in the open. Then you can start really getting the Harley methods underway (and if you don't have copies of SURVIVING AN AFFAIR and HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS, I suggest you get them. No, I am not a shill for the Harleys, but these books are VERY USEFUL.<P>So how can you get him to confess? You have to create a SAFE ENVIRONMENT within which he can do so. Unfortunately, Peggy Vaughan now charges for her questions archive, so I can't refer you to it. But you need to sit down with your H, CALMLY, and say something along the lines of "I believe that you are involved with someone else. I believe this because of a, b, c, and d. If you are having such an involvement, it does not necessarily mean the end of our marriage. But if you are, I want to know the truth. Because if you do not tell me the truth, and I find out later that you did so, that will cause more damage to our marriage than any revelation you can make now."<P>And you have to be prepared to HEAR IT.<P>Make sure he knows that you are willing to DO YOUR PART to repair the marriage.<P>Most BS's, especially men, dread the "scene" that will result from such revelation. If he can feel that a "scene" will not occur, he might be more likely to confess.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wounded2673:<BR><B>My H was involved in an emotional affair last year and let me tell you, if my eyes had been open to the possibility that he could do this,I would have seen. Never underestimate the power of denial.<BR>Boy, I don't know what to tell you. I asked him, point blank, after the EA went to PA. I KNEW and he still lied.<BR>One of his friends got him to admit to it and a little bit of the secret revealed took some of the "bloom" off the rose, I think. He realized that if that guy figured it out, I would too.Changed the texture of his "romantic" thing.<P>Ask him,tell him you know something is wrong, suggest counseling,tell him you miss him. My H didn't come clean til I told him I was through waiting for him to "make up his mind". Not suggesting that to you, just saying what happened here. <BR>Really, if it looks like a dog and smells like a dog, it's probably a dog. So sorry for your pain. AND I SO hope you're wrong</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Wounded,<BR>Thank you so much for your post/answer! I really didn't think anyone would respond to me. This is bec. he has me doubting myself so much that I hardly feel like a worthwhile human being anymore, let alone a woman. If you were here, I'd hug you!!<P>Yes, I think I see what you mean: all of the lies and deceit from our H's keep them in a state of almost make-believe. But, one shred of proof and something they can NOT deny might certainly shake them up. Make them face the music, so to speak.<P>I have such a piece of proof: it's a Post Office recepit for a private box for the OW, and believe me, I can't understand why my H would have this in his pocket! I am scared to death to even mention it to him because he accused me of rifling thru his pockets a couple of months ago, when I did no such thing. HOW would I explain how I found this? So far, the love letter she sent him was 'easily' explained away by him (HA!), or so he thinks. This whole thing is making me physically ill and I am so torn! I still love him and want our marriage to continue, but each thing I find or find out that points to an A tears my gut up. By the way....I did all of the things you suggested (tell him I miss him, love him, etc.) and all I got in return was a nasty-faced stare and deep, deep anger from him. It's clear his mind is NOT on me or our marriage, and this is throwing me for a loop! Any other ideas??<P>Thank you again so much for your reply. I look forward to more of them!<BR>Hugs...<BR>Windancer

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by very hurt:<BR><B>I'm so sorry. I went through alot of the same things. Never ever thought my H would have A--ever. All the signs pointed to it, but he always had excuses and said he knows it looks bad, but he's not doing anything wrong. Always said "you have no proof". Well I got proof, not on my own though. <P>If you've read much through this site, you've probably heard about the 'fog' the WS is going through. That is where your H is.<P>The 'proof' is what shook my H out of fog.<P>Are you very good at snooping or detective work? I felt like I became a P.I. when we were going through this. And by the way, you CAN recover from this. Be strong.<P>I think I read another post of yours--WS is wayward spouce and BS is betrayed spouce. It is very confusing at first.<P>Good luck. And keep us posted.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi, Veryhurt!<BR>Thank you, too, for your kind reply. YES, you did see me post on another area as I was desperate to find out what all these abbreve's mean! Thanks for the heads=up!<P>Yes, I,too, have become quite the PI. NEVER, ever in my marriage did I so much as clean out his pockets before putting his pants in the hamper. I'd hand them to him and let him do it. He knows he can trust me to the limit, but since all this has been happening, the rules have changed (or so I feel). Now, I am on the alert and going through all sorts of things--closets, car trunk, suitcases, etc. etc. What I have found has astounded me and broken my heart all at the same time.<P>Yep, I read thru a lot of the areas on this wonderful site and see what you mean about the fog he is in. He freely admits that he is "confused", doesn't know what he wants and so on. I've been doing a lot of reading of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts and all, and so help me, it seems like I've hit a dead wall. My H will not go for counseling of any type, and as long as he is in this weird fog, our whole lives are in limbo. How can I help shake him out of it? How long can this state go on? He keeps on saying "I just can't do this anymore (i.e., our marriage), yet he will not take any steps whatsoever to ease our situation, his OR mine. I honestly think he is still here solely for economic reasons, and now we are facing another, new financial crisis. The tension between us is so thick it's a wonder either of us can think straight!<P>Again, thanks for your reply and I look forward to hearing more from you.<BR>Hugs..<BR>Windancer<P>

Dear Dazed and Confused:<BR>WOW! What a power-punch of a letter and a definite wakeup call! Many thanks for your reply, Dazed. It made so much sense to me and actually, I did try this approach. One night, when he was in a calm mood, I turned to him and gently said, "Honey, I know that something is very wrong between us. If you are in love with someone else, we need to address this. I promise I won't be angry because I want to save our marrige and will do whatever it takes." To my surprise, he did NOT blow up, as he has so often done lately at the drop of a hat, but he just as calmly told me that no, there was no one else. He said it is the result of his new job (which is taking a huge toll on his time and life), our move to this new city and of course, all of the problems we've had with my kids in our past.) He has no children of his own from his former marriage, but I do and he has been a guardian angel to them over the years. They've really done a number on the two of us, but they are grown now and except for one of the four, are becoming self-sufficient responsible adults. For some strange reason, he seems fixated on "the past", and right now, cannot let it go. This just doesn't make any sense to me because he seemed to change almost overnight. Note: the city we moved to is where the OW lives, and it only occured to me recently that perhaps this is why he chose for us to move here. The job he has here pays very, very well and we desperately needed the money because my illness nearly sunk us financially. Could I have been blind here?? Wow...the thought of it just makes my head swim!<P>OK..I'm rambling now and I apologize. It's just that this is all so new to me and is something I thought would never happen to me, but it did. Your suggestions are excellent and I will follow up on many of them. Again..thanks and I hope you write back again.<BR>Hugs...<BR>Windancer

I just have to reply on the problems from the past thing.<P>During my H's fog, he kept bringing up the only half way big problem we ever had--one from before we were married (well all the financial stuff too). Him focusing on this was his justification to himself for doing what he was.<P>The power of prayer is unbelievable. I had fallen from the church for many years (H was never interested in church), anyway during his A and denials of it all, I was very desperate and prayed and cryed for God to change my H and fix my marriage. Well, it was right after that it all came out. He moved out for one night and came back the next morning and do you know what he hit me with? He said "I think we need to start going to church as a family". Wow! That really surprised me. <BR>But the most incredible thing is how He actually changed my H. He went from not believing in going to church (they're all money hungry) to jumping in full faith. He has now turned our lives upside down for the good. And my H has just decided to go to Seminary for ministry.<P>Pray and believe in the power of God.

As a former WS, I can tell you that it's very hard to get the WS to admit an A. My H suspected for a while, questioned me on several occasions, and I lied through my teeth each time. I even lied even in the face of some very damning evidence.<P>Many WS's won't admit to anything until, as in my case, they're caught red-handed. Unfortunate but true.<P>Sorry you're hurting. {{{Hugs}}}}

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B>As a former WS, I can tell you that it's very hard to get the WS to admit an A. My H suspected for a while, questioned me on several occasions, and I lied through my teeth each time. I even lied even in the face of some very damning evidence.<P>Many WS's won't admit to anything until, as in my case, they're caught red-handed. Unfortunate but true.<P>Sorry you're hurting. {{{Hugs}}}}</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Susie,<BR>Thanks for the hugs and your concern. May I ask you a question? Why is it that the WS won't admit to the A? I mean, when so much is so evident, why keep up the pretense? I would really appreciate your viewpoint and input on this. God bless you for offering your hand in help to me! <BR>Thanks again..<BR>Windancer<P>

Well there is always trickery and deception. There are many ways. For example:<P>Husband, I did not want to tell you this but now I feel I must. Don't be angry, I am not angry with you. I had a doctor checkup and the doctor said I have a sexual disease called Chlamydia. I have had no contact with any other man so how did I get this. If untreated it can be very dangerous. <P><BR>Then if the husband had an affair he might own up to it. Or he can get the other woman all excited about it etc.<P>But if the husband is innocent, it can backfire. But there are many less devious ways. Hiring a PI might do something too. <P>Your husband will be extra careful now.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Windancer:<BR><B>Hi, All..<BR>Please help me! I am sooo stumped. It is fairly obvious that my H is having some kind of affair. I've even found a love letter from the OW to him...So...where do I go from here?? How can we ever get back on track, or even hope to save our marriage when he refuses to be honest with me? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>His stress about the new job does not explain the love letter. If you are "sure" then you don't need any proof. The gut does not lie, but WS's sure do! I got all the pat answers too. I accepted them too, but found out later (rather than sooner) that they were just that- lies. <P>I would go to a lawyer for legal advice about your rights and stuff. Around here they offer workshops for $25 that give a boat load of information. I wish I had gone to one BEFORE I needed it. It would have saved me tons of money and time. I pray that you never need the information, but in case you do, you will be that much further ahead of the game and have your papers copied and stored where he can't steal them and hide assets and stuff. This may sound conniving, but you have to look out for yourself. In Affairs, these guys are people we don't know. They are capable of anything. I know this isn't very Marriagebuilding advice, but it's real.<P>As long as your H isn't being honest, nothing can be built. <P>I'd ask yourself what do YOU want. Do you want that man just as he is right now? Because that is what you have. You can't count on anyone to change unless he wants to. If you sit around waiting for it to happen, you're in for a long and painful ride. <P>The best way to make things happen is to move in the direction you want to go and hope he follows. Families are like mobiles. When one piece moves, the rest must. It might not always be in the direction we want to go, but there will be movement. So, the best way to get unstuck is to move. Havent you already wasted 8 months wondering?

This is in a response to very hurt's reply.<BR>It was really weird for me that a month before d-day or so, I got visited by different religions and I started asking God for the truth..I took a book my mom got for Christman and felt I was entering a new relationship with God...<BR>Anyway on D-day, I was searching for answers on my H computer - I felt something was wrong...anyway I found one of his web sites--an old one for junk mail only that he hadn't used in years...He told op not to e-mail him at any of his e-mail accounts. She did--and for some reason to this account he never used and she never e-mailed before. I didn't have the password and I just said to God-why can't I know the truth...I just want to know the truth...God is truth...and whammo with no password entered this hotmail account--can't explain it - it just opened up to her mail--didn't even have to open new mail icon...he hadn't seen it opened it before I did this...So, tell me why---I asked.<BR>Anyway, before d-day you couldn't even talk about God to my H without him saying your preaching and he hates preaching...I was feeling awful about not being able to say God without him getting upset...After d-day 180, has asked me to find a church...that he is with God know...And I did drill it into his head that what he had with op wasn't not "God is love- this is love and is from God." I told him you were with the other side...your relationship was based on lies, deceipt, manipulation and coniving...etc. and I said that God is not lies, etc. he is truth and what they had was not from God. And I think that he eventually figured it out...and really repented...<BR>I told my H from d-day that I would rather he wasn't with me here on earth, but with God and I could be with him in the after life...and I think that it struck a chord with him....<BR>Ask and you shall receive...<BR>Right now I have to have patience for the prayers I have prayed and Mrs. O gave me some links that have very helpful to me at this time in my life...<BR>I have had a lot of help on this board and am so thankful for it.

I have to laugh because now, looking back this was one of the hardest things I ever had to do with my life. If you look at my signature you will understand somewhat what I mean by this. My h wouldn't admit to the affair initially and I believe I aided him in the subterfuge due to my not really wanting to know that he could do something that bad to me and us. I finally got him to admit to the affair on an evening when I was strongly ready to understand that there was this side to him. My counselor said that I was ready to not dance around the subject anymore, that I was ready to see things and not pretend to be blind anymore.

Regarding ways to catch your husband I have a few ideas that I used on my cheating wife.<P>One very simple one is a telephone recording device. You can buy one at radio shack for about $100. Just plug it into any phone jack in the house and will start and stop recording when any telephone is picked up. Even after I heard a conversation regarding where my WS and OM were going to have sex she still denied. Only after several hours and me mimicking some of the exact words they used on the phone did she confess.<P>If you choose to monitor the phone I have some advice. I revealed my spying to her after only one phone conversation. She admitted to a mild EA and flatly denied that it had become physical, only admitted that it was going to become physical. It took three weeks for what I belive now to be the entire truth to come out. As hard as it may have been I wished I had left the recorder in place without saying anything long enough to know the full scope of the affair.<P>There is another device I use after the affair to eaze my own mind and feel comfortable that the A is over. It's a GPS system that hides in her car. It's the size of a pager and keeps a detailed log of everywhere her cars goes, where it stops and for exactly how long. It's accurate within about 50 feet. When she showers in the morning I remove it from her car, connect it to my computer and download the info, I then put it back in the car. It holds about 20 hours of drive time, when the car is stopped it doesn't go against the 20 hour capacity. This device has gone a long way to improving the trust that she blew with me. Instead of having to call her before she leaves work and badger her with my insecurity I can rely on my little device to help rebuild the trust. I don't plan to use this forever, just long enough to rebuild trust.<P>I can provide further info if you like.<P>Regarding the lying in the face of circumstantial evidence. From my own experience and what I've read it seems to be the norm. After all, the foundation of an A is lies.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by It_makes_me_crazy:<P>>>Regarding the lying in the face of circumstantial evidence. From my own experience and what I've read it seems to be the norm. After all, the foundation of an A is lies.>><P>Wow! You hit the nail right on the head<BR>and it explained a whole lot to me. Thank you! As for your spying methods, while they are very good, they will not work for me. He has not one but two cell phones (job-issued), his own private email addy at work, and his job entails lots and lots of travel. He has the optimum situation for sneaking around--it couldn't be better! As for using the phone at home, he's hardly ever here and when he is, it's so late at night that he makes no calls. Unfortunately, he is very smart. I am catching up, so maybe he's not as smart as he likes to think. <P>One thing I found out is that when the WS's head is in that fog, they do not think straight and tend to make small mistakes. This is a tip off alone for our situation, because he is a perfectionist and doesn't normally make simple mistakes. But..for him to forget to remove the OW's love letter from his suitcase was a major error on his part. For him to tell me two different versions of the same story is also another red flag. He's losing it--and now he knows that I KNOW he's losing it.<P>If you have any suggestions for someone whose H travels a lot, has access to all kinds of private communication, please let me know. Thanks again for your reply. Good luck to you!<P>Windancer<BR>

Do you know who your H's affair might be with? If so do you know her email address? It's very easy to impersonate someone's email address without their password. This however is probably illegal but is a step I would take in your situation.<P>Could you get the password for his email account? It would be very easy to monitor his email without him or the tech-heads at his place of employment finding out. I'd be willing to help you with either of the above two.<P>My cell phone has a "history" feature, listing the #'s of the last twenty incoming and outgoing calls. Does your husbands? If you do not know I can find out, supply the brand and model.<P>I have some ideas about creating phony notes arranging a meeting with OW only to have you show up instead, but if your H is as smart as you say, he probably would not fall for it.<P>Something else just popped into my mind... Make a small thread or other mark on *one* of every pair of his socks. Note when he gets dressed which foot has the marked sock. There a 50/50 chance he'll put the marked sock on the other foot if he had them off at any point during the day.<P>One thing seems certain. Affairs are hard enough to conceal for any length of time when the BS doesn't know. From what you said it seems certain your H is having an affair. Since you're on to him it seems inevitable that he will get caught at some point. You might have to just be patient. I know that is very difficult.<P>When I found out (12/23/00) about my W's affair it was like getting the wind knocked out of me. The first four weeks she kept confessing things to me, though I did ask for them. The month of January was the worst emotional month I can remember... EVER. Three months later I am still angry, still hurt and still think about it hourly. I have forgiven my W and love her dearly and we are on the road to make a better marriage, but it's still so hard sometimes. Some of the deception she pulled was just incredible. OM was husband of one one of her best friends who lives three houses up the street from us. They would come to our house as a couple, have drinks and dinner, you know. I'm sure you can imagine the deception. I could see it in my wife's eye that she was attracted to OM though I didn't know they were having an affair. I used to explain to her that it's ok to be attracted to the opposite sex and that I understood, but could you please "tone it down" and not embarrass me with it, please show me some respect. Anyway - just rambling now.<P>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by It_makes_me_crazy:<P>Hi, It makes me crazy:<BR>Thanks again for your post, but you have guessed the inevitable. Yes, he's 'that smart', and computers are his livlihood. As for the phony email addy, I know how to do that but feel that it would be self-defeating. You see, with his ability to call her any time, any where and not have ME see proof of calls, even sending a bogus email wouldn't work. I KNOW he'd call her first! He is fully expecting me to do something like this because, after all, he taught me most of what I know about computers. <P>I think my best bet is to keep a daily log, which is what I am doing. I record every little phrase, the time he comes home and everything that happens when he is around me. I have made copies of everything that I have found, including the packaging of some of the things, as well as receipts, credit card bills and so on. All the originals are back in their places, but I have copies of them all. He isn't even aware yet that I know of some of these things...but I am aware, and that's what counts. If and when I need them, I have them ready. <P>Like you, I feel sick at heart. You are lucky that your W's affair is out in the open and you both can work on recovery. I know it doesn't feel so lucky now, but trust me...this darn not knowing for sure is a real killer. Every cell in my body KNOWS he is cheating on me and I have more proof than I need, but to have him continue to lie and sneak around is almost more than I can bear. Why do I put up with it? Because I am disabled and have only just begun to drive again, after 6 LONG years of no driving. Now, I can turn things around to help myself, but up until as late as last week, I had no way to get around easily. Riding the public bus was very dangerous for me (I have two artificial joints on the same side of my body), and I am brand new in this city. <P>Does he want me to drive? No sirree! But, that's too bad, he'll have to adjust. Lord knows, I'VE had to adjust these past several months. My next step is going to be revealing to the OW that I know all about it--and the promise to inform her H, too. For this, I'll get legal advice first. <P>Good luck to you, friend. I hope it all works out very well for you and would like to keep in touch via this board.]<P>Hugs..<BR>Winny

I am certainly not against snooping/trickery etc. in this situation. Nothing will change until it comes out.<P>This will not be 'proof', but check his underwear after he changes or showers. It's gross, but if you smell them, you will KNOW if he's done it. This is what I found, but had to wait for better 'proof' for him.<P>Do you know if the OW is in town? If so, on a suspectful day, could you have a friend trail him?<P>I'm not sure how to get it to show on here like others do, but there is an excellent thread on "Snoop Tricks for Betrayed Spouces".<P>BTW, I really like the idea of faking a STD. Pretend to think you have a bladder infection, pretend a dr. apt then hit him with it.<p>[This message has been edited by very hurt (edited March 26, 2001).]