No, it's not a research thesis ... goodness knows I have way too much first hand experience with the wrong end of infidelity (well, that's almost like saying there's a "right" end of it - and there ain't!).<P>However, things happen to me and I think and think about them and then I get these little 'epiphanies' about the OTHER side of infidelity.<P>I last posted one of these epiphanies about a month ago, I think... and I have recently had another one. This time it is a realization about how some affairs might start. I'll bet there are lots of people who have found a married coworker attractive. Now how does an affair start from a simple situation of one coworker finding the other attractive. All you have to do is not act on it, right? Sometimes, though, you feel that attraction very strongly ... and that's when your subconscious mind might step in...<P>Let me describe this month's epiphany:<BR>I have been REALLY struggling with this attraction I have to a married co-worker. And I think there is every possibility that he is somewhat attracted to me, also. I know, dangerous place to go, right? I know that. But I think I realize what happens to some people who "suddenly" find themselves in the middle of an affair...<P>They make the mistake of wanting to be 'honest' about how they feel. Well, folks, honesty like this should ONLY ever be expressed and shared with someone who is free to share it with you or someone to whom you are yourself married. Why? Well, let me describe a scenario. But first let me make it PERFECTLY CLEAR that this is FICTIONAL ONLY!!!<P>This is one of the few situations where honesty is a very bad thing.<P>So, I am attracted to my married coworker. I can't really stay away from him - we have to work very closely together.<BR>I think that he might be attracted to me, too. Soooo.... we have worked some late nights together, so we have had the opportunity to laugh and talk and have fun while we work.<P>Here's where I think a lot of people make the BIG mistake which moves this kind of thing over that LINE.<P>Suppose I said to him (and I'm NOT going to do this), "I really need to be 'honest' about something..." "I'm very attracted to you. If you weren't married, I think we could have a great relationship. I think you're sexy, smart, funny - we have lots of things in common ..."<P>NOW, suddenly, it has gone from that unspoken 'sizzle' in the air that we pretend to ignore (and properly so) to being laid out nice and clear. No blurred lines of "does she or doesn't she?" So much for honesty.<P>Seriously, if he WAS attracted to me and I said something like that, there is every possibility that something could happen... Saying something about it would make it impossible to ignore, and then it would be at the forefront of both of our minds and, well, I think you know what THAT could lead to.<P>Anyway ... I didn't say this or anything like this to my coworker and have no intention of doing so - because I respect marriage and everyone in it. But it IS one of those things that makes me feel closer to understanding what can happen to two regular people that might start an affair.<P>Thoughts?<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

You are very right. Sometimes honesty sucks. For lack of better terms. Sometimes people don't want to hear honesty and alot of the time people don't think of the consequences of honesty. Men and women are naturally going to be attracted to each other. Its human nature.

Terri,<P>Sounds like how the OW got her hooks into my H. <P>She emailed him telling him her feelings (they were most likely all ready in a EA) & a few wks later they were involed in a full blown PA. Of course she made her feelings known at the lowest point in our marriage, she made him feel good, wanted, etc. all things I was not doing at the time. <P>So here it is 2 yrs later, he loves her & I believe planning on divorcing me this summer. What am I doing, just coping day by day. I did well at Plan A for awhile but I can't meet his EN, well not given much of a chance to do so any way. <P>Just keep keeping your mouth shut. Hard, yes but the right thing, & you have done the hard path for a long time, You can do it again.<P>

Yes <B>terri</B>, that's EXACTLY how my affair with a (common-law) married co-worker began!!<P>And at first it felt so good to know he felt the same...<P>...and then I crashed and burned...<P>You are wise, dear woman.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Terri---100% correct there.<BR>My H felt the ow deserved to know he had feelings for her because she constantly proclaimed hers and kept asking him that he had to have for her...Honesty..<BR>Well, he didn't think he had to be honest with me...didn't tell me!!<BR>Where did the deserving of honesty belong to her and not me???<BR>That saddens me whenever I think about it...she deserved honesty ( a lower life moral person) and I didn't....ugh.

I think infidelity happens for so many reasons, MLC,crisis in the home,a certain personality type,ENs not being met. All of the above in our case, and probably more.<P>My H had been having an EA,though he didn't realize it, since about mid-May last year, they met in Mid-June and that's when the real flirting began. Many phone calls, hours on the net,and lots of secret lunches and suppers. He thought he could control it and there would be no harm done.BUT she was very aggressive with the sex talk and he was "turned on"<BR>In Mid-July, he asked her to meet him in a park on her day off and he told her that he wasn't the kind of person who could have a A. That he loved me, sure,we had problems but that the flirting really had to stop. He says he doesn't remember whether he told her he was atrracted to her.BUT she made it very clear that she had expected the PA to begin that very day. And that's when his head began looking for reasons to justify an A. I sure gave them to him just by being me.PA began about 10 days later. Because it was easy and she was very available. And all of the above reasons mentioned before.<P>I think if he had never brought that to a head or if he had been more comitted to US, this EA would have eventually gone by the wayside and we would have plodded along, as always. AND I would have never known.But neither would he have known how much I really mean to him.<P> I think this is a case where "honesty" was misplaced and destroyed what was right and good. Because the truth was being told to the wrong person<BR> <BR>I say leave that unspoken sizzle in the air,whete it belongs. From everything I've seen and read,that's more "fun" than the consequence. But I think you already know that.

Honesty is good when all are being honest for the right reasons. Honesty between husband and wife is a requirement to a good marriage. <P>Is there such a thing as being honest about betraying your marriage and sharing feelings that should only be for your mate with another person(s)? That is what many in the A realm call honesty and I call betrayal. <P>What I am trying to say is that those in the A begin to take words like honest, love, loyalty, respect, faithfulness, etc. and make it fit the A. Square ped fitting into the round hole symdrome. Justify that these are important to the A and not anywhere else. This is the beginning of the A. dictionary. Maybe this is when the class in A. 101 begins. One OP convinces the other more inexperienced OP that honesty, trust, love, respect, faithfulness, loyalty now belongs to the two of them and them alone. <P>Ok the next plan is how to get rid of the 'other' people that the OPs were previously giving their honesty, love, trust, etc. to. This course is covered in A. 102. In order to execute this plan, you must create dishonesty, love but not in love, distrust, disrespect and unfaithfulness type of environment so as to remove all tracers of good qualities in with your family, friends, etc. See the direction?<P>Now I am not sure what the next class is, but back to thought about 'honest' with the OP or soon to be OP? That is a word taken out of contextin an A. There is no honest act (aka honesty) in sharing feelings that are being stolen from one person and given to another. It is used to 'test' the waters of infidelity. You think they are actually looking to be rejected? Most likely not?<P>Once out of the fog and the A., most can begin to use all those words and more back into relationships that are for real. Then those words really have meaning. <P>These thoughts are about those in A's. I don't want to be misunderstood on this point. <P>Just my thoughts. <BR>L.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited April 13, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited April 13, 2001).]

I think you're on track with that thesis, terri. <P>But I think you need to add some of the reasons Why the Potentially WS finds the other person attractive.<P>Opportunity only counts for so much... I think an affair is a symptom of a problem in a marriage. Maybe if the "PWS" looked at why the other person was attractive s/he could thwart the affair.<P>Hmm. Food for thought anyway.<P>All the best.<BR>--HBC

I just want to reassure all of you that I WILL not say a word to this person about my 'attraction' to him. As I said, I've been on the wrong end of infidelity and would not wish the experience that I have had on ANYONE (well, except maybe the slug)...<P>My reasoning for bringing it up at all is due to my need to understand how this stuff can happen. My eyes are truly wide open to this, and I am quite the crusader against infidelity. When someone 'jokes' about it, I make it a point to very politely inform them (if they are a friend) that I will personally come and kick their butts from New York to LA and back again if I hear that they are cheating on or thinking of cheating on their spouses. Seriously, I do. If I don't know them well, I find a less obnoxious way of making my point, but still make my point. I probably drive all my friends up a wall, but I am very serious about this stuff.<P>Yes, honesty is something you owe your spouse more than anyone. We owe others honesty, also, but not if it involves inappropriate feelings we might be feeling for them. I think that in many cases, blurting out our 'honest' attraction for someone to whom we are not married or who is also married is a deliberate attempt to cause a change in the level of the relationship - it might be subconscious, but it is still deliberate. For those who have no standards or morals, it is both deliberate and CALCULATED...<P>Don't worry about me if I am telling you all these things as they occur to me ... worry if I DON'T talk to you ... <P>Now, as to WHY the PWS may find the OP attractive ... in my case LOTS of people are starting to look attractive - with one single very brief and unsatisfying exception (this might be too much info for some, so close your eyes until you get past this part - LOL!) I have not been with anyone intimately for 5 years. While sex is NOT the be all and end all of everything, I am still young enough to find that EXTREMELY frustrating!!! Some days when the hormones are doing their thing, I feel like the cartoon of the starving coyote who sees 'dinner' in every other creature he looks at... only, in my case, I find my overactive imagination imagining stuff it should NOT be imagining. In one way, this is a relief ... at least I'm not dead yet! However, in other ways it is quite unpleasant, since all of the males I see regularly are either married or otherwise committed, or they are students who are over 20 years younger than I am.<P>For others, there may be unmet needs at home... if the guy in my scenario is actually attracted to me in any way, it would be primarily due to the fact that he doesn't get to spend a lot of time with his wife! That whole "spending time together" thing - that is SO INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT to a marriage!!!<P>Thanks for listening to me ramble... I'm going to go to sleep now <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Hi Terri,<P>I commend you on your post. You have written about a subject that I believe we think about but may feel it is a bit taboo to talk about. Yes, our needs as BS's are not being met and this is a daily struggle for many. <P>You have help us acknowledge that it is ok to recognize these feelings but caution us so that we handle them with care lest be become our greatest enemy. <P>Thanks for your courage and grace. <P>L.

A word about attraction: I said to my H if she have wieghed 300 pounds this would not have happened. He said before it wasn't about looks. But it really was.<P>The OW is so opposite lookswise, to me. I am small,dark and curvy. She is taller,blonde and flat-chested. I always felt like she is my Hs physical ideal. Maybe it was before and during the A and for a time after. <P>But I've seen her,folks, and didn't feel threatened.I didn't see anything special. According to my H, she has a great butt,that's really her best feature. I saw her a thin,I was over weight. He says now,finally, that she was only thin on top, that she has very thick legs.So if he fantasizes,its only about her a**. He says NO,he doesn't.<P>I truly feel, because I was over weight and lost 20 pounds over this, that my weight was a factor in his homecoming and in his unhappiness in our M.More so than has been addressed as yet. My a** can now rival hers,I'm sure.And I feel this tremendous pressure to keep the weight off. To stay attractive...thoughts?

Wounded,<P>My ex had five OW (that I know of, and the count has changed over the course of time that I have posted to MB)... and here's how they measured out:<P>#1 was slim, blond, not curvy<P>#2 was slim, tan, bottle-blond, curvy<P>#3 was heavy, dark<P>#4 was slim, tan, blond, tall<P>#5 was short, heavy, redhead, athletic<P>And, if I may be so bold, allow me to talk about the OM I chose:<P>Short, ethnic, hair down to his butt, heavy<P>So, I think although looks matter if the affair is strictly sexual... if it is emotional AT ALL, <P>LOOKS DON'T MATTER<P>How's that??<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

I think too, that when you are even a little unhappy, or bored or whatever, not quite having your needs met and someone tells you that you are beautiful or smart or funny or whatever it is that you are...you just look at them differently. A door is opened. You can choose not to walk through, or even close the door, but the energy will have changed.<P>My husband is very attractive, tall, dark, handsome, athletic, graceful, smart and can be very charming...yet the man who caught my attention during the bad times is attractive, but not like my H, though he is charming. But what caught my attention was really how persistant the OM was, his solidity, he seemed like an adult, a man in every sense of the word...and he loved to talk to me and said so, at a time that my H repeatedly said "I can't talk to you!"<P>It was so attractive and I went down the wrong path. Talking to me is still hard for my H...but he meets other needs, and we're working on communication.<P>My H's OW was an attractive loves-to-party girl. Beyond her looks he found her interests and the things she likes to do very appealing. Things perhaps I could have done, if I hadn't been so wrapped up in the kids.<P>I'm kind of wondering, in a marriage, with its tendency toward daily tedium, who DOES have their need for admiration or attention met? Isn't that why a stranger/co-worker/acquantance blurting out "My God you are so beautiful/handsome" means more than a spouses' "You look good today honey." You live with & married them, you're supposed to like/love them.

terri,<P>You are SO RIGHT about your post! That's exactly how my wife's affair with a co-worker happened. <P>Complete honesty should be kept between a husband and wife (or a committed couple). Period.<P>I commend you on your strength in light of what's happened with you.<P>-HD

Lor,<P>What you said at the end of your post is so true! My H told me that he wasn't feeling attractive and her attention made him believe that he was. I have ALWAYS told him how good-looking he was/is. Just today I was wondering if maybe he needed the validation because he might have thought my attraction to him was just a fluke, or like you said, something similar to the phrase "you have a face only a mother can love"<P>I still wonder why he needed to hear from another woman that he was attractive in order to believe it.

This is probably one sided because I am the BS in this. I think that the affair happened because there was an opportunity for it. Here is a young girl (23) saying to my husband (37) that she wants to go out with him. Of course sex was next. I was pregnant by the way and my H will not have sex with me if I am pregnant. She met his need and that need was sex....Simple as that.<P><BR>viva<P>------------------<BR>

My best guess in H's case - he was complaining a lot about feeling old; nothing to look forward to; would rather be dead than retire; having health problems (makes me wonder what I see in him) - and suddenly out of nowhere comes much younger woman (20 years younger!); now, H is also very successful in the corporate world; well connected; fairly well-off; smart dresser and can be very charming; she was running a small one person business; he sent some work her way; ah and gosh she was just so grateful!; thought it was "wonderful" to have a "mentor"; she just kept telling him how wonderful he was; and how grateful she was - and guess what? Seems like he fell head over heels - I may be cynical but it seems to me she was looking for a meal ticket; well, if this keeps heading down the divorce path, I hope she likes cheap take-aways! (oops - they genrally upset his ulcer - but I guess she probably hasnt heard about that!! Or the bad back!<P>R<P>oops - just had a little vent here!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by terri:<BR><B><BR>Anyway ... I didn't say this or anything like this to my coworker and have no intention of doing so - because I respect marriage and everyone in it. But it IS one of those things that makes me feel closer to understanding what can happen to two regular people that might start an affair.<P>Thoughts?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Be very, very careful. Four years or so ago, I was where you are now. Pretending there was nothing there worked for over 3 years. Over time, I "trained" myself to respond appropriately to friendly gestures, etc. We joked around, enjoyed working together, then went home to our respective spouses. No contact outside work hours.<P>Neither of us came out and admitted to feelings. Both our spouses happened to be out of town for 3 weeks at the same time, and he, especially, was pretty stressed (I had already declared my marriage dead by that time, but stayed because of kids). One night, he just really needed a hug. It wasn't the first time we'd ever hugged, but this time was different. It seemed to break down the barrier I had tried to keep in place, and things accelerated from there.<P>I never thought I'd do anything like this, either. In fact, I told him several times, "I can't do this," "I DON'T do this." But I did. Once you reach the edge, it's a lot easier to fall over than to back up to a safe distance. <P>Just be careful. Your situation is riskier than you seem to think.

I think affairs happen for all different reasons. Obviously if you feel yourself being drawn towards another the best thing would be to realize it and tell your spouse. But, a lot of times if your not familiar with emotional needs or how easy you can be pulled into an affair it sucks you up and it's too late. It's really tough to tell your spouse your attracted to another when you don't want to stop seeing that other person. After all, if you tell your spouse you'll be forced to stop being with that other person. In an ideal world a couple is aware of all of the things that we have learned on marriage builders and other sites when they first get married. So many of us get too relaxed in our marriages and we put each other on the back burner. The spouse that is feeling neglected doesn't tell their spouse how they feel to even give them a chance to change. I don't think it's any one thing that causes some one to cheat. It could be a little of lots of things all rolled into one. For me, the OM was not more attractive then my husband. But, he was the complete opposite in looks, mannerisms/personality and education. I know I was the complete opposite of his wife. For my first marriage it truly was over in my mind way before the affair happened. It wasn't emotional needs not being met that caused my feelings to change towards him but more of "who" he was that I didn't love. But, for the OM I think it was more emotional needs and the fact that he never gave her a fair chance. He married her admitting to her that he cared for her but didn't love her the way he had loved the first woman he almost married. They were busy with jobs and family and put each other on the back burner. He felt his needs were not being met and although he hinted to her about his feelings I know he never sat down and told her that he thought their marriage was in deep trouble. I think we all leave "hints" to our spouses when we are unhappy but, if they are not educated in the needs of their spouse they don't hear or see those hints. For instance, a man dropped his son off at our home the other day and commented that he'd love to move into a newer home but his wife had not yet gotten a job even though she had been promising him for a year that she would. The frustration was very apparent in his tone. I have no doubt that he has expressed this need to her before and I'm sure he had made comments to others where she at least heard him. Then he also made reference to having to get home to cook dinner because his wife did not do this even though she was not working. In this instance the red flags were there that two things very important to him where not happening and he was very frustrated with his wife. So, is she just getting hints and she isn't familiar with what we've learned on this site to take action? Is he not educated enough to communicate better with her his needs and how it's affecting his feelings towards her? I bet it's some of both.

Hi everyone,<BR>Haven't posted here in a long time - trying my best to work on recovery -<BR>Just have one comment to make- forget about physical/mental attributes:-<BR>When a relationship is in crisis - ANY kind of outside influence is LETHAL!!!<P>So don't feel inadequate - it's not about your shortcomings,<BR>but the shortcomings of your partner/and or marriage - NOT YOU!<P>Trish (Spain)