<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Do you believe you will have the type of marriage God plans for you?", I would say yes, as long as I am being the spouse He expects of me. The hard part is in realizing that God's plan for my marriage may not be what I desire. Peace is in accepting God's plan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is exactly what I meant - God's plan may not be what I desire. But He can use my marriage for my good. "He will accomplish what concerns me". <P>I remember the daughter of E. Elliot saying, "God doesn't desire my happiness, He desires my holiness". Isn't that a greater priority He has for us? Even as parents we don't give our children everything that makes them happy, but we do give them what they need (which might even be hard work), for their good. More than anything God is intending to mold us into His character. The fruit of our acceptance under His mighty hand is joy, which comes from the character He is building in us. In my own life, though it hasn't always gone as I would have liked, He has done mighty works in me, so that I do have joy and can live abundantly. <P>Surely it would be good and desirable if we and our spouse would live in the loving relationship God planned a marriage to be. But, having free will, each spouse doesn't always make choices to love. It seems you are saying, SHA, that your responsibility is the choices you make to love your wife as God intended, regardless of her choices to love you as a wife ought to. God will bless you for doing what is right.<P>I am just having to accept much of this myself, and often rebelling against it. Thanks again, for the reminder to keep our eyes on what is above, what is eternal. I like to think of Hagar, who God found in a desert place after she ran off from being run out by Sarah. At that place God found Hagar and His name, El Roi (the God who sees) was revealed. God sees your heart and your good deeds, SHA, and even here on this forum they are bringing fruit and encouragement to many, as they will to your sons also.

SHA,<P>It was so good to see your post. I don't know if you lurk at all, but I haven't been posting much either. I'm praying for you. <P>Rob/professorg:<P>Something that you said about the Proverbs 31 woman really struck a chord with me.<P>Don't know if you remember, but my h. WAS a believer, and now since his year-long PA at work 2 years ago calls himself "an agnostic who hopes it's all true". <P>When we married, it was with my understanding that we would go into some form of ministry together, in addition to his professional career. We went to Family Life Conferences, Marriage Enrichment classes, etc. He always nodded and agreed with everything. I thought that putting all my efforts into being "the Proverbs 31 woman" would keep him happy in our marriage.<P>Know what? She is an IDEAL, not a living, breathing person! I've heard excellent teaching on how Christian women should model themselves after her, by working on ONE quality at a time. <P>Otherwise, wouldn't it be fair to hold up the model of Jesus for guys as a measuring stick? <P>How discouraging it would be to live daily knowing you have such a high standard to attain,...you'd give up...right? <P>That's sort of where my h. is now. <P>He has told me that he realized from the beginning of our marriage that my idea of 'the perfect Christian husband' was unattainable -- Christ as my husband, or my husband as the Godly head of the home, -- so he started giving in to little temptations here and there, and eventually just gave it all up when OW suggested an affair.<P>Am I making any sense? Perhaps in addition to being prayerful, you could read "Beloved Unbeliever" by Jo Berry. It's out of print, but you can still find it. It's written somewhat gender biased, assuming that guys won't read about their marriages, but it helped me deal with my disappointment over his spiritual state at present.<P>Thanks to you both for all the help you've given me in the past,<P>Blessings and prayers,<P>lizzie smith/POGP/alias<P>[This message has been edited by alias (edited April 26, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by alias (edited April 26, 2001).]

Liz,<P>What I have written my sound harsh. It is not intended to be so. I have taken my lecturing tone which my W says that I revert to from time to time. I go there because I find that when my feelings are to much in control, I err which results in my being hurt along with the other parties being hurt. So please read it in the light of my sharing my deepest feelings which are black and white. I'm sure I haven't put enough detail to give the complete picture.<P>I have never told her that I wanted her to be the Proverbs 31 woman. I just want her to love Jesus the way she thought she loved the OMen that she committed adultery with. The goal is to say yes Lord which results in Him livng His life through us. <P>The only way to achieve being the Proverbs 31 woman or the H which God wants us to be is to let Jesus do it for us by our submitting to Him. Without Him doing it for us, it is impossible to achieve. We CAN'T do it, but He can. Am I the perfect H? NO!!!! Is He guiding my path? YES!!!! He is the reason why I understand why she did what she did. He is the reason I am able to forgive her. I can't take from her what He has freely given me and her. She chose to be selfish and keep His love rather than share His love.<P>The Proverbs 31 woman is as real as the ideal H: they both reside in Jesus. I don't expect my W to understand until she truly loves Jesus. When she truly loves Jesus, she will then be able to see that Jesus was talking to her through me. She is unwilling to see Jesus in me because she, as I do sometimes but much less frequent when compared to the past, listen to the lies that Satan has whispered in my ear. <P>It is difficult to discern when Satan is lying to you sometimes because he is the most powerful created being. He knows more than any other created being. He still has the powers God bestowed upon him. Yet, we have the Holy Spirit who talks to us continually. Yet, we ignore Him because we are to wrapped up in havng our own way at the detriment of others. I want to serve my W and all to whom I come in contact with whether in person or virtually.<P>God allowed me to go through this to help others through their pain. Hosea really endured what I have endured. When I study this book, I see how I am to do Gods will by feeling the pain that others are enduring so that I can have empathy for what they are going through. I really do feel their pain. I have gotten to the point where I can listen with empathy which is what is wanted most often. I used to want to slove the problem. Every now and then I still revert back to solving the problem. This occurs now primarily because I usually am feeling sorry for myself. God lets me know that He is still there and I come back to my senses.<P>I look for Jesus in her and others. When I don't find Him there, I say yes Lord use me to show them Your love so that they can be brought closer to You. It is God who opens a person's eyes. Just like He opened my eyes, He can open her eyes. I really do remember when I was a FOOL. But I am a fool no longer in His eyes. Yet, in the worlds eyes, I am sure I am thought of as a fool.<BR>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <P>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited April 26, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited April 26, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited April 26, 2001).]

Well said.<P>hugs and prayers,<P>lizzie

Job <P> HEy brother, wonderful to see you again. I don't post much either. I check here occasionally. When an 'oldy' speaks the rest of the oldies come out of the woodwork. Funny huh? Wishing you well my friend. You're are still in my prayers. MY situation as not went as 'well' as yours, but it's out of my hands now.<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Liz,<BR>I did understand where you were coming from. I just know that none of us are capable of achieving perfection. Thank you for seeing what I was saying. It says that somewhere along the way I am letting Him be more in control of my steps.<P>Paul,<BR>Long time no hear from. I too usually drop in from time to time when I see us old timers. It is a shame that this is so rampant. Yet, the Bible says it will only get worse before He comes back.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

SHA,<P>That's for sharing your update. I keep a lurking eye out for all my old friends, always hoping to see happy updates.<P>I can only say one thing. Although you don't have the relationship you want to have with your wife, you do have so very many positive things in your life. You have your self-respect, a relationship with the Lord that is stronger, deeper and truer than previously, an intact family, the ability to directly influence your sons on how a man should be a great husband, and the list does go on. You have alot more here than many others. In NO WAY am I trying to diminish your situation, as I know how deeply you love your wife and want to have a deeper and more satisfying relationship with her. I am only trying to give you encouragement, that although you are suffering a huge loss on one plane of your life, you are enriched beyond measure on many other planes. Keep those blessings tight to your heart!<P>I know that you are a man of honesty, integrity and the highest of moral principles. Focus your time and energies on enjoying the blessings you do have. Never give up hope on the one thing that you don't have. God can soften even the hardest of hearts. You have an opportunity that some of us never had. You have your spouse still home and that gives you daily opportunities to show her what you are made of.<P>I know that God will continue to strengthen you on your quest. The journey is long and hard, but you are right, you can not lose by continuing to follow your heart and your beliefs, because you truly do believe this is the right thing for you to do.<P>Wishing you many bright and happy days ahead.....<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

I was wondering, what is preventing you from having the marriage you want to have? I'm speaking from the other side, having been a WS, but having Harley's books suggested to us by our counselor and applying his concepts has made all of the difference. My H and I both have made changes that have saved our marriage of 24 years (+ 4 children) that I believed was doomed. Our counselor said I had committed emotional suicide and within weeks he was amazed at my turnaround. Each day can be a struggle to do the right thing, but at the end of each day I am breathe a sigh of relief that I did the right thing.<P>Another thing that made a difference was finding a note that had the name of a friend written on it that was now single because her husband, a minister, had abandoned their marriage. My H said that he had only made a note to ask someone how he might get in touch with her to find out how she had made it through her ordeal, but that was a signal to me that I might soon have more to regret that I had ever even imagined, that I not be able to go back if his attention turned in another direction, and rightfully so. He was not looking for that at that time, but he had made it clear that he did not want to spend his life alone if I left. <P>I hope that someday your wife will find what I have found and be grateful for the wonderful blessing of forgiveness from both my husband and God.

SHA,<P>Sorry to hear things aren't going as well as you and all of us had hoped. There is still hope though as long as you are together. As you said, maybe someday her heart will soften.<P>Hang in, and God Bless.<P>Bob<BR>

Greetings to you "oldies" that crawled out of the woodwork to say "Hi". I'm honored you took the time to post a message. I pray and hope you are all well. You all are in my thoughts more than you know. <P><BR>Kanga, <P>To answer your question "what is preventing you from having the marriage you want to have?" you must first realize that my wife has not taken the steps to heal our marriage that you have to heal yours. The fact that you are willing to go to counseling and that you simply desire to do what is necessary to have a better marriage with your husband is a huge step that many WS's never take. <P>My wife won't go to counseling. She won't read any book on healing the damage that has taken place within her. The choices she made damaged her inner being. Her strong will is keeping her from healing that damage. Even though there is no longer contact with the OM, I know she holds on to thoughts that continue to torment her. <P>My wife has made it clear to me that she loves me but is not in love with me. Because of what has happened, she can't find physical desire for me anymore. We are good friends. Probably better friends than we have been in our 20 years of marriage. But the physical intimacy in our marriage has been lost. And since she isn't willing to seek outside help (her strong will) our marriage suffers in that area. That is what is keeping me from having the type of marriage that I desire. <P>I have been at this long enough to know that I can't make her love me like I want to be loved. I'm now working at being content with all I do have. I am blessed with many things. I'm in a situation that many people on this forum would covet. I don't take that for granted. I realize some people can recover and have a better marriage than they ever had. But for some, their marriage ends in divorce, and for others, well, their marriage doesn't end but it also doesn't become satisfying to both partners. For those of us in the latter, we contnue to pray for guidance, we learn to be grateful for what we have accomplished, and we seek peace in what God has given us. <P>God bless you all.<P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

SHA, Thanks for the inspiring message and the thread which it started. I have been feeling so discouraged in my marriage. My H has only been home 6 weeks after living with OW for 4 months. It's not lack of love that's the problem though, it's his anger at me and his unwillingness to let me know his plans or his whereabouts when he's angry at me, which is frequently. I feel so anxious and hurt that it's hard to focus on being the best wife I can be. And it's hard to let go of resentment. It's good to be reminded that I need to continue to do what is right, rather than working on influencing my H's behavior.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have been at this long enough to know that I can't make her love me like I want to be loved. I'm now working at being content with all I do have.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>SHA, I concur with you that a relationship involves two people. This is evident in the relationships God has with us. Some respond to His love and enjoy an intimate relationship with Him. Others are unable/unwilling to open up to His love and thus have a very limited, broken relationship (or none at all). Does that mean God's love is insufficient? He isn't trying hard enough? There is something wrong on His side? May it never be! God's love is perfect. He is capable AND desires an intimate, fully satisfying relationship with each of us. But He has given us free will, and the nature of a relationship is that it involves two, going both ways. He continues to love faithfully. We may not be able to receive (or be open to) that perfect love. We may not even feel loved by Him, but it isn't because we aren't. It is because of our own hindrances that get in the way. And so it can be with a spouse. For whatever reason they cannot respond to our love and enter into a more intimate relationship with us. And, as you said, that is what can prevent a marriage from being what you desire.<BR> <BR>He is well acquainted with your hurt in not being able to have the kind of relationship you desire. Doesn't He know that, to one degree or another, with each one of us? He KNOWS broken/limited relationships. Therefore you can find comfort and understanding in Him.<P>I'm reading a very good book right now called "The Path of Loneliness" by Elisabeth Elliot. It confirms much of what you already know as the basis for the choices you are making. If you haven't already read it, you may find encouragement to know you are on the right path. And hope, for God meets us in our loneliness and fills us with a much deeper joy and love than we can ever imagine, or receive in an earthly sense.<P>From Isaiah 58:<BR>"And the Lord will continually guide you<BR>And satisfy your desire in scorched places<BR>And give strength to your bones;<BR>And you will be like a watered garden..."<P>May He fill your cup to overflowing, SHA. Thank you again for your encouraging post.<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited April 29, 2001).]

After reading your reply to my question, I cannot imagine why your wife would not want to take the steps to heal herself and your marriage. I was unequivocally convinced that our marriage was totally irreparable and was not going to even attempt counseling, until I was faced with losing my children, one in particular. He wrote me a letter that described vividly that in no way would he ever be able to continue our relationship as I had destroyed all faith he ever had in me. He told me that I was the one that had taught him his values and how could I ever do anything like this, specially when I had such high expectations of them. They knew we had had a tumultuous relationship over the years...we had not hidden our feelings. All my life, I had lived for my children (which was one of our problems...putting them before my H), and now the thoughts of destroying their lives tore my heart apart. The sad part is, that one of my children was in support of me finding "happiness", but she realizes now that I have found true happiness, which is something I've been searching for for over 20 years. I did not stay for the children (my H asked me not to stay for them, but for him) but it did give me a wake-up call I badly needed, as was my leaving for a weekend gave my H the wake-up call our marriage needed. I do regret my actions and I combat the guilt daily, but it was the storm that has now passed to let the sun shine through. <P>We both work on meeting each other's needs now and have truly become best friends and more. I have a desire for him that had long ago faded. Not only can my husband trust me, I can even trust myself, which I could not say before. I guess I just can't see why anyone would not want to attempt Harley's concepts, because it has helped our marriage that in turn has helped me to be a happier, more content person. <P>I wish you the best and pray that your wife will find overcome her strong will and seek the way to true happiness with you.

My H told me that he fell in love with the OW so do you KNOW that attempting to restore love in the marriage is right? I really feel in my bones that he can love me again but it's alot of work. Just wanted to let you know that visiting this site each day has kept me above water. Thanks so much!

Terrified,<BR>I have absolutely NO doubt in my mind that attemting to restore love in marriage right! Just 3 months ago, I had serious doubt...that's when we began our healing and it has been the most blessed time in my life...even more so than when we first met and fell in love 25+ years ago. The secret to achieve what we have (which is no secret to MB's) is both parties have to be willing to make adjustments. That's the one thing that my H has discovered, but failed to see 15 years ago when we 1st attempted counseling, but didn't put it into practice, was that it takes two...two to make every effort to meet one another's needs. He admits now that he just couldn't see how I couldn't see things the way he did. That eventually drove me away to seek attention elsewhere...I was just looking for someone to love me. I must add, my husband was/is a very good person...but we just couldn't come together on many issues. <P>I'll also add that, I too loved the OM in my life, and had for years...he was the one that I had always felt I should have married instead of my H...so, I had quite a battle of emotions to deal with. I had found him & he was equally as interested in us making a life together, that a turn-of-events had prevented when we were younger. I am happy, actually ecstatic, that my H didn't give up on me and was willing to begin again. That was what was preventing me from making progress in the beginning...I was wanting to fix all that was wrong, instead of beginning again and us both making the effort to meet each other's needs and once I could grasp that idea, our healing began, slowly, but has progressed to the point that I could tell my H just this past weekend that I no longer love the OM. I had been gradually feeling that way, but when I could finally say it, a load was lifted. And what you said about work...at first it sorta seems like work to restore love, but actually, we've both reaped such wonderful benefits from our efforts, that it's nothing but pleasure now. We are going away for the weekend, which we've never done since we've had children (in 22 years) and it's not the going away I'm so excited about, but the chance to spend uninterruped time together...and I couldn't have said or even thought that 3 months ago! This is the 1st time in years that I've felt loved by my H...and it's WONDERFUL!<P>I know healing takes different amounts of time for different people and situations, and I even spoke with our counselor about that...the ups & the downs, etc...but our love banks have been replenished so well by one another, that we've been fortunate...and our foundation was in place for quick reconstruction to take place. <P>I certainly hope for you & your husband to have the healing that we've experienced and that your life will be blessed as mine has been.