It occurs to me that even though this is a MB forum, nearly all of us here are BSs. Why is it that we BSs, the ones who should be the most offended and hurt, are the same people who are working so hard...in many cases by ourselves...to keep our marriages working?<P>Is this partly the result of WSs fog? <P>We rarely see a post from a WS asking for advice on the best way to get their BS back and committed. (Or have I missed them?)<P>Those here who are BSs truly must be special people if they are willing to work so hard, in the face of such opposition (in many cases), to try to overcome the deepest hurt they will ever feel, to keep their families together. <P>To my fellow BSs, I am so sorry that your WS can't see what special and caring people you are. With hope and prayer perhaps they will. <P>Best wishes to all <P><BR>

Elad - I think you are correct that most of us are the BS - including me, but I have the utmost compassion for the WSs here who have seen the light and are trying to recover - they have their own type of pain. You have missed some posts from WSs working hard to recover.<P>This forum would not work without the WSs. I get great support from the BSs, but I get knowledge from the WSs.<P>I know you didn't mean to flame the WSs. I just wanted to reinforce their value to this site and to me, personally.<P>WAT

No flame meant at all.<P>I experience and validate the pain of my own WS.<P>Just a tribute to the patience and caring of the BSs at this site.

Elad,<BR> I agree with you so much about WS missing out. My H is away for 4 months on business. We communicate daily by chat. We are able to open up by chatting more than we can face to face or on the phone. I think the WS typically attempt to avoid pain. Hopefully my WS will begin posting soon. I send him stuff for the MB forums that are of particular interest and he gets alot out of reading it. I think it would be great for him to become more actively involved.

I am a WS. I have been posting here and other fourums right after discovery. Posting has saved my life, and hopefully my marriage. Sometimes the WS can get hit pretty hard, but that really hasn't been the case here. I have gotten tons of support. <P>I can't ignore the pain. Beleive me, I have tried to ignore the pain my entire life. It is hard. Just living knowing how badly you hurt your partner. Reading others stories of non remorseful spouses makes me crazy, or the ones who validate the non disclosure. <P>It has been 8 months since discovery and it is still very raw. Just last night I started crying, (which I do daily), just realizing how badly I hurt my husband. I looked at him and thought, how could I have hurt him so badly? He is the nicest person in the world. Kind, gentle, compassionate, and I crushed his world. It is very hard to realize that I did that to someone. It is so very painful.<P>I read these boards everyday. I can't avoid the pain. No matter where I go, it is there. I am working very hard at repairing the marriage. I may not do it perfectly, but I am a heck of a better wife than I have ever been. The guilt and shame is horrible. But, I want my husband, and I try to do whatever I can so we can survive. Me posting here, and he does too, helps us a great deal. <P>PJ

Thanks Plain Jane.<P>I am trying to understand my W's feelings. She can't explain them that well right now. Or at least so I can understand them.<P>I appreciate your honesty.

My husband (who is the WS) won't post here either, can't even seem to read more than a paragraph or two in here when I ask him. It is because of his feelings of guilt, and fear that I will leave him and feeling like even he wouldn't blame me if I did. <P>It took a while to get him to talk about his fear,last night was the first time in fact and it has been almost three months. I can understand why. Imagine the worst thing you've ever done to hurt someone you cared about, and then reading a forun like this where people talk about how much they have been hurt by people doing the same thing. If you are at all remorseful I think the guilt would make it almost unbearable to read.<P>I do continue to hope that someday he will be more able to get involved, because I think it would be good for both of us, but if that never happens that's ok too. Not posting in here doesn't mean he's not trying everything he can do to try to repair the damage done to the best of his ability. The WS are the ones who have the most emotional pain to heal, so if this helps even without the WS's involvement, I'm in for anything that will help even a little right now. <P><BR>On the same note, it might seem like it's all the BS's working so hard to save their marriages, but I think if it weren't for the guilt, fear, and feelings of unworthiness we would see alot more of both sides. <BR>

It has been five months for me.. as the WS.. it's very hard. My situation is really tough, because I was extremely depressed before the A.. dealing with emotional attacks from my controlling H, who wanted me to be everything I wasn't.. ( I have a Masters degree, a great job, I'm 36 and in really good shape, have two wonderful children).. but I wasn't "outgoing enough", I didn't keep the house clean enough, I wasn't "together".. you name it. After years of it, I was at a low point.. he even convinced ME to go see a psychiatrist. I now know what I was going through after reading "Overcoming Emotional Abuse.. Getting off the Emotional Roller Coaster".. it was all there. Then, after he discovered the A.. it has been virtually Hell since. Months of therapy hasn't helped him. The therapist worked on him so hard (his controlling nature)- and he was dealing with the A, and quit going. He has been depressed the whole five months, and doesn't seem to be getting much better. He attacked me relentlessly for a while.. I rode it out the best I could. So, I'm dealing with getting over the emotional abuse.. as well as trying to get us through this recovery, and it is very hard.

Leighann - your post struck a chord with me. I too am the WS. I have been with my husband 14 years, married for five. My husband has a drinking problem and for years was constantly verbally abusing me and controlling me mentally. I fought so hard to keep my marriage together and not to believe his words. But alas, the constant belittling destroyed my self esteem. Then we lost his mother after battling cancer for 14 months and the following month lost our first baby on Mother's day. All in all last year was horrible! He turned away, drank more and I turned to someone else to help me deal with the pain. Dday was mid June when he caught me with the OM - I was shocked into reality immediately. I couldn't believe I had done what I had - I am ashamed, guiltridden, and absolutely disgusted that I could go against everything I ever believed in and hurt the one person that I loved more than anything else in the world just to try and make myself feel better. I think about it everyday and I know my life will never recover from this devastation. I too endured months of hell after deciding to stay in my marriage and work through the pain. I tried to do everything to make my husband love me again, trust me, forgive me... But nothing was ever good enough and now ten months later we are separated and filing for divorce. He says that he'll never get over it and it's time to move on - apart! I am crushed and I'm sure there are people on here who could never understand the pain some of the WS go through - but we have our own private hell as well. I know that I made a huge mistake and it was without a doubt probably the worst thing I will ever do but I have to believe that I deserve a second chance. That everyone does. I wish you luck and I hope your situation works out better than mine.

abovewater,<P>Sometimes the BS understands more than you might know, especially in cases like yours, where there has been alcohol (or drug) abuse, verbal abuse, physical abuse, etc. Even as a BS, I have to confide in you and let you know that I have less pity for a BS who has been abusive in any way to the WS before the EMR. Not that we don't all have problems in a marriage that each party contributes to, but when you abuse someone and systematically tear down their self-esteem to the point where they feel like a big fat zero, it almost seems like an EMR is veritably looming on the horizon. In this case, it's more a matter of what is the healthy and *safe* way to react to the abuse, and sadly, an EMR tends to exacerbate an abusive person even more ... it's like handing them a lifetime supply of ammunition.<P>I know that you feel sad ... but perhaps your ending was for the best. I believe that your H was probably telling the truth in that he couldn't get over it, and he probably would have made you pay repeatedly. Do you really want to be with a man who rubs your nose in the EMR in an abusive way for the rest of your life, even though you are truly sorry for what you've done?? Even a BS who is in dire pain understands that this isn't the right way to treat someone you love, IMHO.<P>belld

Abovewater... I can definitely relate to you as well... my husband doesn't have a drinking problem.. just controlling.. He could get pretty blatant with his words, but the subtle abuse was worse.. and just as painful. He doesn't understand why I didn't "Stand up to him.." I tried.. it was hard. Talking to him was difficult- he would always twist the conversation to his favor to where I couldn't win. When I started talking to the OM.. I felt whole, respected (my husband didn't respect me and admits that), I felt like a real individual. I realized how lost I was. I can't get my husband to grasp the pain that I was in (he says it's my fault :-) because I didn't stand up to him.. I took it)- plus it's hard to make yourself believe that someone who is supposed to love you for WHO YOU ARE.. is talking to you like that!.. and you spend hours of emotional energy trying to understand it.. then comes depression and physical problems. Anyway, I know what I did was WRONG.. BUT.. I refuse to condemn my self forever. I have apologized over and over.. I have asked God for forgiveness, and I refuse to believe that this has ruined my life. I am a stronger person inside.. I did not want to hurt him- that was never my intention. The A gave me some control in my life, where I felt that I had little. Just playing around for a little self-gratification, is one thing, but.. I think most people are led to affairs (NO EXCUSES).. because they are hurting in some way- for me, I kept my emotions inside for so long, I didn't know how to let anyone know how I was feeling.. and it was a while before I opened up to the OM- and he made me understand that I was not crazy. I wish every day that I had handled it differently, but I didn't. I can't change it.. no one can change the past- you can only learn from it. I don't know if my husband will stay with me.. he's still in limbo.. but if he doesn't, I have accepted that. I have learned how important forgiveness and understanding are.. Life is too short. I ask my husband.. what would he gain by leaving? We would lose so much, we have two children, he'd be by himself, I'd be a single mom.. and it STILL happened. If you truly love each other, you can get past it. If he cannot get past it, he needs to do some serious soul searching.. as does my husband.. and really try to see what is most important. Let him go... it may take that for him to see what is.

Thank you belldandy and leighann - it's nice to finally come here and talk to someone. I have been lurking since last June and I have grown immensely as a person from reading everyone's comments, both WS and BS. Belldandy you are right when you say it was like handing my H a lifetime supply of ammunition. I wish I had seen that at the time. I was so hurt and lost I couldn't see anything but a lot of pain and I know that I handled it totally the wrong way. My H has a hard time understanding anything at this point largely due to the alcohol.<P>Leighann - I tried everything with my husband prior to the A, I even went to counseling by myself when he refused to go. Deep down I always knew that he loved me, it just always seemed like he loved alcohol more. I agree completely with what you said about depression. It makes you do things you otherwise never would when you believe that you are worthless. I too have always kept my feelings to myself and knew the OM for two years before anything ever happened just talking and having him verify for me that I wasn't crazy and that I didn't deserve to be treated that way.<P>I miss my H terribly but I have to believe that what I am doing is the right thing for me and maybe someday he will realize that while the A was a monumental mistake for me, it was a symptom of a much bigger problem. <P>Thanks so much for responding to me.

Hi, I wrote a long reply and then lost it. <BR>I'm a WS, there are a few that post here, and it is hard. The forums work better for a BS because you get empathy, sympathy, support, a place to vent, encouragement. Usually a WS gets support and encouragement but not always, sometimes accusations and flames. Things that a BS often writes can hurt to the core of a WS. Most of your feelings are acceptable here, some of the honest feelings of a WS in withdrawal are not (missing the OP, for example). Alot of the reasons a WS doesn't want to come here are the same reasons they don't want to talk about "IT." See this thread in "In Recovery."<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/003038.html" TARGET=_blank><BR>Why don't WS want to talk about IT</A> <p>[This message has been edited by Clouds (edited May 10, 2001).]

Well, that sure got the WS out of the wallpaper didn't it.<P>Although I am a BS I try to be understanding of the WS who want to post here because I feel like if a person has come here, forwhatever reason, he is looking for help. My impression is that most of the WS who come here are remoseful and looking for ways to heal their marriage (sometimes in the face of great pain) or looking for ways to heal their own pain if its too late to save their marriage. Since this is a marriage building site it seems reasonable that they should expect some encouragement for their efforts no matter what they have done in the past. There are the occasional persons who come here looking for validation for leaving their marriage and those are the ones who usually get flamed although I think they too are still looking for something to change their mind.<P>It is usually the partner however who is the most accepting of the need for change (in themselves or their mate) or has reached the point where they believe that change is possible that comes here. <P>I feel at times I get stuck in feeling hopeless and not knowing where to turn for help and find that coming here restores my sense of balance. So whomever wants to contribute, WS or BS, their input is important because there is always someone needing to hear what they have to say at that time and that moment. Maybe it's not what everyone needs to hear but someone needs to hear it for whatever reason. So everyone and anyone who wants to post please feel free because you're welcome here.<P>Faye

Interesting repsonses, and I am sure the WS's who responded are sincere and working hard to get their marriages back on track. I appreciate their perspective.<P>But it still seems that the BS does a lot of work to fix a suituation they never wanted to find themselves in.<P>

As the ws, I am here trying to understand what has happened. It is true that the site is strongly oriented toward saving marriages at all costs, and that is intimidating sometimes, so I really only post on stuff more directly related to being a ws, or perhaps about what marriage is. My motives are several, one is to understand my feelings, and whether they are messed up (re ending my marriage). I was pretty much ready to divorce before A (given up on us) but now am more resolved to follow that through. Clearly that is because of the A, what I don't want to do is make a decision based on someone else (whether they are available or not) rather than a decision based on what my marriage is. This is complicated cause my wife is focused on the affair, and blames that. This frustrates me cause I want to focus on whether we should stay married or not based on the previous 23 years, not last few months. If anything her focus on the A is driving me further away, and that makes me feel more guilty cause is the wrong reason, you do not trade people in for op. Secondly I feel maybe my honest (yeah I know) feedback re me as a ws may be of help to someone. And lastly I am trying to understand what marriage is supposed to be, I truly do not understand why some of you BS say you love your ws (based on your descriptions of them and your lives). It almost seems like there is a BS fog as well, when what would be better is divorce, and remarry to a more worthy person (using the maturity and growth you have recieved to do a better job of mate selection). It does seem that those who do draw firmer lines, make a reasonable effort but INCLUDE an assessment of whether they really want the marriage restored, and do choose divorce (even if ws does seem to want another chance at some point), report finding out they really do come back to life, and do not regret the divorce (even if they still have some love feelings). I truly believe that marriage is not supposed to be at all costs, but is supposed to be healthy and nurturing for BOTH parties, not a dependent/co-dependent relationship (which seems to be the case for many here).

PlainJane,<BR> Why do we, who validate non disclosure, drive you crazy? After all, I am sparing my husband of the misery you describe. I think it would be different if my affair was still going on - but it isn't.<BR> I realize how I hurt my husband and myself - that is why the affair is over.<BR> I would be interested in your views. Thanks.<BR>Mar

Mar,<P>I guess it is just the way it is sometimes justified. I don't want my husband to go thru the pain, therefore, I will not tell him. Sure, I can understand that. But, then who is making the decision? I wish that I would have had the courage to tell my husband. If I would have, it would have been stopped before it got much worse. Having an affair is the most selfish act one can do, and living a lie is even worse.<P>I remained in the fog for a very long time. I would just block it out. Then it kept perpetuating, got worse, and worse. Differant people. You lose touch with reality. Hey, maybe I'm differant. But, if you can get away with it, why not do it again? And again? <P>My husband found out most of my secrets, but there was other things he didn't know. After trying to rebuild my marriage, knowing that I still had secrets. Something came over me. I knew that I had to tell the truth. I confessed some other things, that he wouldn't have found out about, but, I had to tell him. I wasn't sure if he would still remain married to me or not. He did. We are still together. <P>You bring up an interesting point, after reading your posts, is it the pain your husband will go thru or your own pain?<P>PJ

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> After all, I am sparing my husband of the misery you describe. I think it would be different if my affair was still going on - but it isn't.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Mar, <BR>From your posts I see that you still work with the OM, and talk with him. You sometimes miss the "wonderful" times you had together, but that you "know your limits". <P>Can you guess that that sort of reasoning doesn't go over real big with a BS? If you were to tell your H, or he were to find out, I guarantee you, the very first thing he would insist on is to end <B>all</B> contact. Like some others who drop in here from time to time, you claim to want to protect your H, yet you fail to do the most obvious thing that must be done to recover from an affair - end it. As far as I'm concerned, if you're still working, and talking with the OM, your affair is still going on. How do you think your H would feel about this if and more likely <B>when</B> he finds out about it? Think he'll believe you that it's been "over" for a long time, when you've continued your relationship? Not likely.<P>No, I'd have a bit more respect for your position, if you quit your job, and really put your marriage first. If you did that, I bet you would eventually tell the truth. Being more interested in keeping a cheaters "pact" with your lover, than you are in your own marriage does not bode real well to me, sorry to say. From what you wrote in your posts about OM being the one to suggest cooling it, I'd say it sounds as if you are a sitting duck for a relapse.<P>See the thing is, once you have illicit sex with a person, you just can't go back to having a respectable relationship with them. It can't be done. <P>Sorry to sound harsh, mar, but maybe you see that the biggest problem is not in not telling your H, that, I'm sure would be terribly difficult and would take some real preparation to do. The problem is in continuing a relationship with your lover. Seems to me if you really wanted to protect your H ending all contact would be the first thing you would do. <BR>david <p>[This message has been edited by Davidb (edited May 13, 2001).]

I have to agree with Davidb completely on this issue. I worked with the OM and ending all contact IS the only way. I know that there are those who say they can work around these issues, but how can you be faced with someone that you had an affair with on a daily basis when you've realized that this was the most horrible choice you could have made? If you are going through withdrawal, this only brings you back to square 1. Even if you AREN'T dealing with withdrawal and believe that you're over the affair, you still see a daily reminder walking around of what poor choices you made, and this is definitely not a positive influence to contend with. Not only will this hurt any chance of recovery within your own marriage, but your self esteem and mental health goes downhill FAST. I remember FLYING out of where I worked on my last day because I couldn't get out of there fast enough. <P>I don't really understand mar's position on non-disclosure. Are you trying to truly spare your husband's feelings, or are you trying to make it easier for recovery? I just cannot imagine keeping that to yourself, it needs to be brought to the surface. Don't those issues as to why the affair happened in the 1st place need to be addressed? And doesn't your husband have the right to know what happened to ascertain where he stands on this issue, giving him the knowledge that he needs to be able to move forward? I do believe an affair is a symptom of a much deeper problem; whether it be marital problems or (in more cases from what I've seen) something that needs to be worked on within oneself.<p>[This message has been edited by Madelyn (edited May 13, 2001).]