Here is my situation...I am 34 and my husband is 37. We have been married for 5 years. We've had our ups and downs in the past. Primarily due to my husband's use of pornography. Which, I believe, has stopped. In December, he came home from work and told me that there was a rumour going around about him and a 24 year old co-worker at the factory he works at. He said that everyone is saying that they have something going on because they are always together. He told me that he wanted me to know in case any of the guys ever were over our house and said anything. I didn't think too much about it. Then, it seemed like he talked about her all of the time and the rumours became more frequent. They confided in each other about problems in their relationships and at work. In my opinion, it had all of the ingredients of an emotional affair. My husband decided that he wanted to have a party and invite everyone at work. I told him I didn't feel comfortable with the 24 year old being there. He said he HAD to invite everyone. However, there was two other people he had a problem with and was not going to invite. He began working late. Not excessively late (1-2 hours of overtime per day). He is an officer in his Union. Before meetings he would go to a local bar with her and one or two other guys from work. I told him I had a problem with this, but it continued. I was growing more and more concerned. This was all occurring in November, December and January. He came home one night in late January and told me that she wasn't talking to him anymore. I asked him why. He said he asked her several times, but she would not answer him. He was genuinely hurt like a lover dumped him. Other friends have stopped talking to him for various reasons and he cared less. This was different. In February, his factory had an anniversary celebration at a local country club. This was the first time she and I had ever saw each other. My husband was introducing me to all the different people he works with, but not her. I asked him to point her out to me and she literally ran when she saw me walk toward her. This seemed very peculiar to me. I made sure I was alone quite often that night. I wanted to give her a chance to tell me she wasn't having an affair with my husband. I wanted her to dispel the rumours. It didn't happen. After the event, one of his friends had a get-together at his home. She was not invited, but showed up anyway. Again, she didn't say a word to me, but stood 3 feet behind us the entire time we were there! My husband wanted to leave, but I said no. I wasn't going to let her chase me out! I wanted to rip her to shreds, but didn't want to make a scene. Eventually we did go. My husband claims that nothing ever happened between them and that they were just friends. He's lied to me so much before (about everything under the sun). I don't know what to believe. Any thoughts?

YES, YES, YES!!! This sounds exactly like the situation I found myself in - same scenario. My husband went to a staff agency to find new staff for his office, he was assigned a woman staff consultant and they started to have business lunches to discuss his staffing problems. Eventually I began to be aware that these lunches were happening a bit too regularly for my liking, AND he was mentioning her name too often. Then I discovered him playing CD's that I knew we didn't own - I asked him about them and he said that this woman had lent them to him. I got suspicious. He also held a party at our house to say 'thankyou' to his staff for completing a project on time - this woman was also invited, along with her husband. He actually proposed a toast to her, for all her help over the past few months, but never toasted or thanked me for all my hard work preparing food etc., for the party. He spent most of the evening in her company, almost to the exclusion of all the other guests. I noticed and her husband noticed and a lot of our guests noticed. I confronted him with it after the party and he admitted to me that they had a lot in common and had grown to be 'good friends' over the past 6 months. He swore that there was nothing more in it than that, he loved me and had no 'romantic' feelings for her whatsoever. I had a very bad feeling about it and asked him to stop seeing her, but he kept reassuring me that there was absolutely nothing in it. Two weeks later I found out I was pregnant - he was horrified, told me that we couldn't have another child and admitted that he needed to 'sort things out once and for all' with this woman. He left me sobbing my heart out, to 'phone Planned Parenthood on my own while he went out to dinner with her. 9.30pm her husband called to say that he had followed them and saw them kissing in the restaurant car park, he had beaten up my husband badly and he'd been taken to hospital by ambulance. Luckily he was OK, but didn't come home until the following morning - then he told me that I had been right all along, and he had realised that he was 'in love' with her, and she had told him that evening that she had felt the same way. They had kissed for the first time that evening, nothing else had happened. A few days later, when the swelling and bruising had begun to subside after his beating, he slept with her for the first, and only, time. Since then she's gone back to her husband, and they are not seeing each other anymore. However, they are still in contact with each other via e-mail, and my husband has moved out into an apartment. He says that he wants 'love and romance' in his life, and knows that he can never have that with me. Even if this woman stays with her husband, he doesn't want to be married to me any more. Up until that day, I thought that we had a wonderful marriage.<P>My advice to you is to go with your instincts - they are almost always right. That gut feeling that is screaming 'danger, danger' is probably correct. I'm so sorry. It may be that nothing has happened so far - but as I'm sure you appreciate, an emotional attatchment to another woman is just as hurtful as a physical affair. Talk to your husband and be strong - see if you can put a stop to this NOW before it goes any further. Good luck, and hugs, Paint

OMG. Deja Vu! Except the part about physical. More more emotionally dependant they become on the OW the more withdrawn they become from the spouse. We went from him telling me we're not compatible & he needs space to him telling me hes made up his mind & its over. ANd hes sleeping in the other bedroom. He went from loving remodeling to only doing the bare minimum to "sell the house". <P>Talk, talk talk! as much as you can. Approach everything from how YOU feel. Dont accuse him of anything or criticize/complain or lay on the drama. Just be truthful & say you feel like you guys dont share or talk like you used to, that you are afraid you are drifting apart & would like to have some peaceful communications?? Avoid the Love Busters. I am trying this but I think its too late for me. <P>Can you guys work on the emotional needs questionairres & compromise a little to meet each others needs? But still be independant, have some of your own hobbies/activities. I hope you can have patience & understanding & healing discussions. Try not to let your emotions & hurt consume you. Read everything on this website & find the His Needs Her Needs book at the bookstore or library. Good Luck. Don't throw it all away yet. But dont lose your own identity either!<p>[This message has been edited by cantletgo (edited May 30, 2001).]

I would be very concerned about this if I were you. My H is 42 and this is how his A started- with a coworker- it was emotional for 9 mo then turned physical. She turned him against me in a BIG way and was jealous of MY life as his wife. All the lunch hours they shared just fed the emotional fire between them. Watch out! Is your H starting to pick small fights with you? They want distance when they are with someone else so they can justify what they are doing. My H actually went to church with our kids and me then would drop me and the kids off and go to OW"s condo saying he was at the gym! I would be very suspicious if I were you. I NEVER thought my H was the type to cheat after 15 yrs of marriage but as I found out never say never. lifeismessy

Oy oy oy oy oy!!!<P>You know what's funny? How dismally similar these things are.<P>Yeah, this sure do ring a bell, don't it?<P>Here's what happened with mine: H had this job. His boss hired this woman who then became H's boss and the boss' subordinate. Woman, hereafter known as "Dragon Lady" was a single mom through an "arrangement" with a friend. Dad unknown. Some think that the boss was the father. At first it was "Dragon Lady is such a ditz, such an idiot, blah blah." Then a bunch of them started going out drinking, me excluded. Then H started talking more about Dragon Lady. She'd been investigated by DYFS for child neglect, oh, poor woman, etc. At first he'd thought her selfish for having a child on her own, but now it was "Poor Dragon Lady." Next thing I know, she's calling the house, not even acknowledging my existence. There's more, but you get the picture.<P>Renee, it sounds to me like your H was susceptible to this woman's attentions because he and you had some kind of problem. You might not even have been aware of it. HE might not even have been aware of it. But it was there. My H to this day thinks we had no problems in our marriage.<P>Your H seems to have some dim awareness that something was inappropriate about his relationship with this woman, but he also got something out of it, hence his attempt to throw you off the track. <P>We went through the same deal, where my H wanted to have a party at our house and invite all his work friends. And yes, she was there. Now get this: We had closed up our cats in the bedroom because there would be kids going in and out all day and we didn't want them to get out. SHE ASKED TO SEE THE CATS AND HE TOOK HER UP TO OUR BEDROOM. Fortunately, I heard this and went along. Then when she left, he walked her out to her car and stayed out there for about 20 minutes. And people I worked with were leaving at the same time and I was terrified someone would see something.<P>So I do understand. <P>Whatever the reason this woman no longer talks to him, it's obviously created a void in his life. He's going through a touch of withdrawal, but it probably won't be too severe. <P>Now, what can you do? Do what I did: Take this as a wake-up call. These situations, which are not as intense as full-blown EA/PA's, allow us to take stock of our own role in the marriage, make changes, and get quick results. If your H is a decent communicator, try to find out what he's lacking. He may surprise you. My H thought I was controlling, I never wanted to go anywhere with him, and he was bored with our routine sex life. Easy changes to make. And I got quick results. You probably will too.

Thank all of you for your insights and comments. My husband is very clear that he chooses me above her or anyone else. I want so much to believe him. It's just this annoying voice inside of my head telling me to be very, very, careful and not to believe him. <P>As for making changes in our marriage. I've gone out of my way to be a great wife. I have a job where I get paid as much as him and have put it all into fixing up our home which is kept remarkable tidy given my work schedule. I have let him go with his friends (who I trust completely cause they're my friends, too). We are even thinking of having a child which he wants very much. I cook him whatever he wants and go wherever he wants me to go with him. The only area where he may have a complaint is with sex. I've had medical problems where I might have to go a week or two at a time every few months without sex. However, I don't think that's enough for there to be a problem in our marriage. I asked him yesterday, point blank, if there was anything I could do to be a better wife. He told me no and that he knows what he has in me. He says that his friends (unfortunately not the ones at work) are envious of what he and I have together. I asked him if it was uncomfortable for him at work now that she is there, but they don't speak. He said that it wasn't and he doesn't care. <P>It's frightening when everyone tells you that if you have a suspicion, there's probably a reason. I want to believe that he is telling me the truth and that he did nothing with this tramp. I have a need to tell her off and give her a piece of my mind. Is that terrible?! I want to tell her to stay away from married men and to find someone her own age. Hell, I know my husband is human. When she wags her 24 year old self in front of a 37 year old guy, I suppose he would get tempted. However, she should know to behave better. Like I said, what a tramp.

Stephanie - don't panic too much yet, although I have to say that I've heard all this before from my own husband - the 'It's you I love, I would never leave you' talk! He even offered to sign a letter giving me 80% of everything if he ever left me - boy, do I wish I'd taken him up on that offer now!!<P>I would print out the emotional needs and recreational needs questionairres from this website and ask him to go through them with you - I was a 'perfect' wife too, cooking, cleaning, being a good mother, and he says that our sex life was incredible - but I didn't realise that I was failing miserably on the recreational side of things and that's what he found in the OW, it turned out to be a need that was even more important than sex. I think there's a clue there when you said that you don't mind him going out with friends - where are you? at home? You should be with him. Find some recreational activities that you can do together.<P>As for the sexual side of things, I noticed that you mentioned in your first post that you dislike pornography? then you called this younger woman a 'tramp'. Be honest with yourself and try and determine if you might have a problem with your sex life, many of us are brought up to see sex as being something that is shameful, or only to be enjoyed within certain limits, such as marriage. You also stated that because of a medical problem, you can't have sex with your husband occasionally. I must admit I was surprised by this, because there are a lot of ways you can continue to enjoy intimacy and sexual satisfaction with your partner without necessarily having actual intercourse - have you ever considered these choices as an alternative to intercourse when you are medically unable to have sex with him? <P>Best of luck, Paint<p>[This message has been edited by Paintbox (edited May 15, 2001).]

I will look into the questionnaires. However, in my opinion, any woman who knowingly goes after another woman's husband is, and deserves to be labeled, a tramp. This has nothing to do with my views on sexuality or my own sex life. I don't mind him going out with friends because they go to gun bash parties that I have no interest in. The people there are mostly men. Also, some of the guys he spends time with are his Navy buddies. On occassion, I do go with him to visit them, but he knew them long before there was an us. There is not a lack of doing things together. We have one day per weekend that is our "date" night.<p>[This message has been edited by ReneeStephanie (edited May 15, 2001).]

Renee, let me ask you a couple of questions:<P>1) Suppose he did do something with this woman? What does it do for you to know for sure? Can you just assume that something happened, accept that, accept that it's over, and move on? <P>Worrying and distrust don't change what may or may not have happened. They are emotions that give the ILLUSION of control. Distrust does not ensure he won't lie to you again. Worrying does not change what's happened or what will happen. What they DO do is work you into a state where you're more likely to lovebust.<P>My H swears he's never been unfaithful to me. But I know in my heart that he had some sort of (I believe failed) sexual encounter with Dragon Lady on a business trip, because it was after that trip that he decided we needed to spice up our sex life. He would never admit it, so why bother nagging him about it? I assume something happened, it's over, and I learned from it.<P>Also, the recent misadventures of Mr. Clinton and Mr. Giuliani (as well as many other high-profile people) prove that where many people are concerned, if it's not the old in-out, in-out, it's not infidelity.<P>2) Do you really expect your H to come up with a laundry list of what you could do better? Men are emotionally brain damaged!! (No offense, guys). They are not introspective by nature, and he probably THINKS he's perfectly happy.<P>But something you said leapt out at me:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I've gone out of my way to be a great wife. I have a job where I get paid as much as him and have put it all into fixing up our home which is kept remarkable tidy given my work schedule. I have let him go with his friends (who I trust completely cause they're my friends, too). We are even thinking of having a child which he wants very much. I cook him whatever he wants and go wherever he wants me to go with him. The only area where he may have a complaint is with sex. I've had medical problems where I might have to go a week or two at a time every few months without sex. However, I don't think that's enough for there to be a problem in our marriage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Being a maid is not the same as being a wife. My mother was recently widowed, and even though she nagged and shrieked at this guy for almost 25 years, she says she was a good wife because she packed his lunch every day, made his dinner, did the wash and made sure he had socks in his drawer.<P>She rejected him sexually too, and when he stopped trying, it gave her something else to nag him about.<P>I realized, when I stepped out of myself and looked at our marriage from my husband's POV, that he was missing two things: attention and recreational companionship. I started staying home more instead of going out with my friends, and going with him on his (expletive deleted) 6 AM weekend hikes. It made a big difference.<P>As far as sex is concerned: Even the most low-libido guy has sex as an important need. Your H doesn't just want you to lie back and think of England, he wants you to get into it too. If you can't you might want to look at why. Is it, as someone else theorized, that you have a religious hangup? Are you just bored? Is the medical problem something that can be treated? (if it's just menstrual stuff, there are medications your doctor can prescribe.) Believe me, if you can be enthusiastic, it'd make all the difference in the world.<P>Gotta run, but think this over a bit; let us know what you come up with.<P>

After thinking it over, I believe that I have been completely wronged by my husband. I did everything I could for him sexually and did try to do the recreational stuff, too. Expecting my husband to honor our wedding vows of being true and faithful is not a religious hangup. If I am colder to him sexually and emotionally, it is because I have been lied to deceived for months. I'm just not able to turn the other cheek. I thought I could find support on this board. Apparently, people here seem to view my cheating, lying, husband as the victim. I can see posting here was a big mistake. One that I won't make again.

Where did u get that you are being treated unfairly here? You stated a problem in your marriage and people tried helping you. You may not agree with what everyone says, and if that is the case then why ask a question only to get angry when you don't like an answer. As you can see from my name I like you, don't like to turn the other cheek or blind eye. You obviously decided to stay in your marriage, but you are deciding to stay ANGRY instead of doing something about it. That is like a friend of mine who's boyfriend is a serial cheater and his biggest complaint was that my friend withheld sex. After she would find out that he cheated again they would break up for about a week and then she would call him saying that she wanted to work it out. But her attitude sexually is, "WHY SHOULD I HAVE SEX WITH HIM WHEN HE HAS CHEATED ON TIME AND TIME AGAIN!" WHAT! I thought that was the most ridiculous thing i had ever heard! "I WANT A RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU AGAIN, BUT DON"T EXPECT INTIMACY DUE TO YOUR SERIAL CHEATING"!! My point is, why go back into a relationship when nothing has changed except the date. No one here has said that your husband is the victim. But the questions they raise are..."WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO CHANGE TO TRY TO HEAL, LEARN AND TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR YOURSELF?" If you are asking yourself "WHY DO I HAVE TO MAKE CHANGES" the answer would be because your husband has not come to this board looking to make things better, you did.<p>[This message has been edited by trying2_4give (edited May 16, 2001).]

Stephanie - I felt the same as you do right now at one point - about posting on this board I mean. When I first posted here I got all sorts of replies that at the time were downright hurtful - in my case it was because I had made the decision to go ahead with an abortion. Eventually I came back to the board because a couple of people had been really supportive and offered down-to-earth advice (Dazed & Confused was one of those people). I appreciated her honesty and she has helped pull me out of some really bad 'downers' several times since then.<P>I do appreciate what you are feeling - that it's you who is being 'blamed' for your marital problems, when you've done nothing wrong. We all felt that way at the start. I don't know if you have read Dr. Harley's books 'Surviving an Affair' or 'His needs, Her needs' - but they are real eye-openers. The fact is that there are several factors that contribute to problems in a marriage, no-one person, or factor is 100% guilty - and no one person or factor is 100% innocent either. One of the first stages of repair is being able to stand back and see what all these problems are, and who or what is responsible for each of them. Once you know what your 'enemies' are, then you are in a much better position to be able to fight them. <P>Think of breaking a favourite vase: Is it 100% your fault? No - the fault could be blamed on several things - the vase was made of fragile material, the floor under it was hard, the handcream you had just applied had left your hands slippy, you weren't concentrating, the wind made the door bang shut suddenly and startled you etc. etc. Lots of factors. Now, if you decide to repair the vase, but you start attempting to glue it together with your eyes shut, well it's not going to be a very good repair. You have to stand back, open your eyes, see the pieces, sort them out, THEN start glueing them back together, piece by piece.<P>The hardest thing to deal with, is acknowledging that you are PARTIALLY responsible for what has happened, we've all had to come to terms with that and it hurts like hell - especially when family and close friends are constantly telling you that 'You were the perfect wife, you've done nothing wrong' - I had all that from my parents, and in the end had to get quite ratty with them to make them see that it wasn't ALL my husbands fault. We don't know you very well yet, and are fumbling around looking for ways in which to help you see the whole picture instead of just a small part of it. I'm sorry if we upset you - please believe that we DO support you, we DO know what pain you are going through, and we DO want to try and help.<P>The purpose of Marriage Builders is to SAVE marriages, and that means taking some responsibility for the problems that need to be solved. I've seen some very bitter books, and heard some very naive advice, that really do all they can to help break marriages up - simply because they put the blame entirely on the Wayward Spouse and ferment bitterness, hatred and resentment in the Betrayed Spouse - to such an extent that the marriage ends up in divorce much too soon - without giving the relationship any chance at all to improve. The Marriage Builders way is tough to follow, there's no doubt about that - but if you really want to try and repair your marriage, then it's the best, it works, and it can make relationships better than they ever were before. <P>Whatever you decide to do - I wish you the very best of luck and hope it turns out OK,<P>hugs, Paint

I, too, have the question of "why should I stil sleep with H when he's lying to me, cheating on me, and clearly wants to have his OW and STILL be able to have sex with me??" <P>What possible incentive does he have to give up the affair when he's got me and her both, which I firmly believe is what he really wants?<P>Psycho_B***h<P>

Pscho, i think u misunderstand what i am saying. In no way am i saying "Have sex with H while he is still seeing OW". That is not physically or mentally healthy for ANYONE! What i am to saying is, if you are saying that you love and want your spouse to stay and your spouse has chosen to stay, why would say to spouse "OK, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE THIS WORK BUT DON'T EXPECT ME TO SLEEP WITH YOU" That is not what I call working on a marriage together, IMO. In that action alone you are showing that you are going to continue to punish spouse for his/her mistake and are not trying to meet them halfway. It isn;t going to help to continually throw up someone's mistakes time and time again and that's exactly what that statement is saying. But if spouse has not given up OP then NO i don't think the betrayed should have to risk their health by sleeping with the betrayer. I understand for some it is hard to be intimate with the betrayer after D-Day and that is understandable and a totally different scenerio, but to do a "I want to be with you, but with RESTRICTIONS". Is not working towards a NEWER and BETTER Marriage. JMO

A while back I posted about "advice for newbies", and one thing I mentioned was that it's really important to study the material on this site, not just the messageboard.<P>The Harley's methods for dealing with infidelity, no matter how minor, seem completely counterintuitive: How can HIS affair be MY fault? How can being nice to him possibly end the affair? <P>I've mentioned in other posts a book called "How One of You Can Bring Both of You Together", by Susan Page. The single most important sentence in the entire book is this: BEING RIGHT IS THE BOOBY PRIZE.<P>Yes, you're right to be angry. You have a right to be angry. You've been betrayed, and it sucks. But affairs don't happen in a vacuum. No, you didn't MAKE your H have an affair, even an emotional one, but clearly something wasn't right in the marriage. You can't change what your H has done. You can't control what he will do in the future. What you CAN control is how you react, how you respond, and HOW YOU BEHAVE IN THE MARRIAGE.<P>It's not easy to look inside yourself and think, "How did I contribute to the environment in which this took place?" It seems to go against everything you've been taught, which probably goes something like "Divorce the bum."<P>When I realized that my H had what I felt to be an inappropriate, overly-intense attachment to another woman, and that he was completely blind to my feelings about it, I found this site and took immediate action. My H is uncommunicative, so I had to GUESS what his needs were. I know him well enough that I guessed right.<P>Do you think it was easy fielding the phone calls where she didn't even acknowledge my existence? Do you think it was easy explaining to my family what was going on and why I wasn't going to be visiting for the foreseeable future? Do you think it was easy to tell my friends that I was out of circulation because I had to fix things at home? Do you think it was easy to watch them together, exchanging significant looks while I sucked it up? It was HELL, my friend, but if you keep your eyes on the prize, and stop worrying about BEING RIGHT, you can make some real changes in your marriage that will result in REWARDS FOR YOU.<P>My H now goes on business trips and I trust him. Why? Because I know that he's getting what he needs from me. Is our marriage immune? No, but if it happens again I AM STRONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH IT AND SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW WHAT TO DO.<P>Trying-2forgive and Paintbox have put it very well (and thanks for the kind words, Paint!)<P>Renee, if you want to read an archetypal MB success story, go look for posts by "Lora". Lora's H had an affair that started out very much like yours. It went to PA, he moved out, and it took the better part of a year but he is BACK HOME and the marriage is much improved from the way it was before. Lora (and "lostva"/Lori...gee, do you have to be named Lor-something to get results? ) is our current MB Poster Child for Successful Use of Plan A and Plan B.<P>You have two choices, Renee. You can stay angry, in which case your H is going to say, "Well, if I have the name I might as well play the game." Or you can WORK ON YOURSELF AND ON YOUR MARRIAGE, try to get past it, and have something better on the other side. <P>Your H has made it clear that it's over. That's a lot more than many people here have. <P>No one's trying to attack you with asking you questions about sex and recreational needs; we're just trying to get a handle on the situation. I've posted to men here whose wives are involved in affairs, telling them that based on what they write, they sound somewhat controlling. It's not fun to find out these things about yourself, but it's useful. I found out that my H thought I was controlling. He doesn't any more. And that means he takes out the garbage, that I don't feel I have to. <P>We have a former poster here that I'm in regular touch with. She was having trouble getting over an affair, and used to e-mail me every time she started getting swoony over OM again, because she knows I'll give it to her straight. She and her H are together, doing well, and expecting the baby that she desperately wanted but he was ambivalent about. He's not ambivalent anymore. He's as excited as she is.<P>It's YOUR choice, dear. But remember: You came here looking for help. We're here to provide it.