I've been thinking of all the 101 things that have come together to cause my husband to leave me, and have come to the conclusion that however socially unacceptable it might sound - our kids were partly to blame too.<P>Now, I know that we all tell our children that it is NEVER their fault - and that is the right thing to do - but how do WE really feel about it - here's my point of view:<P>My husband never really 'bonded' with our children at all - he worked long hours, while I stayed at home and brought them up. Sometimes he wouldn't see them for days as he was off to work before they got up, and home after they'd gone to bed. At weekends (if he wasn't working), the last thing he wanted to do was to spend time with the kids - so he would go off by himself and play golf, again leaving me to care for our children by myself. For a while, our children would plead for him to play with them - but gradually they got disheartened and eventually gave up even asking any more. He never cuddled them or showed them any affection either and so eventually they would always come to me for comfort, never him - and at bedtime would 'forget' to even say goodnight to him, let alone give him a kiss. I know that this hurt my husbands feelings tremendously, but he was unable to see that if he wanted to build up a relationship with his children, that he would have to start spending some real quality time with them - and it wouldn't get instant results either. Not suprisingly, our kids got very, very attatched to me and started to use all sorts of horrible attention-getting tricks if I was trying to spend time talking to, or being with my husband. Battles ensued - I couldn't even hold his hand without the kids squeezing in between us and forcing us apart. If we tried to have a conversation they would try every trick in the book to 'disturb' us and get my attention away from him - whingeing, whining, complaining, being silly, showing off, naughtiness, even falling over deliberately and then faking loud crying! My husband started to get increasingly annoyed with them - he could not see that ignoring their antics was the best solution - and retaliated with telling them off, shouting at them and eventually walking some distance away from us, isolating himself. Now he is living apart, he wants to try to improve his relationship with them, but is still having major problems actually being with them. Last Saturday we took friends out for the day, sightseeing in our car - 4 adults and 4 kids. It was horrific, one of their kids threw up several times in the car, the other one whinged and our two children fought like cat and dog with each other all day. By the afternoon, my husband was saying that he just wanted to get out of there and go home - he wouldn't join us for dinner that evening, and the following day he rang and said that he couldn't spend another day with us. Once again the kids had driven him away. Since then, he's only telephoned them once, very briefly, and will not say when he wants to see them again. I am convinced that the jealous behaviour of our children has played some part in destroying our relationship - any one else have similar sad stories?

I am sorry but your children are not responsible for this. Your husband is responsbile for not developing a loving relationship with his children. He is responsible for not taking his place in your family as the father figure and your husband. Your children's reaction is natural. It could be turned around by two parents who developed good parenting skills.<P>I know because my H and I did this to meld together two families, his and mine. We may have our problems (his affairs) but when it comes to setting up family dynamics we have done a good job of that. Our relationship is number one in the household. The children know that. It was not easy because they all wanted to cling to me (both his and mine). But we have been adament that mom and dad need their time. They all respect this now.<P>The problem I see is that you do not have an affective co-parent. You are left to parent your chidren totally on your own. Of course the children cling to you. I if they lost you what would they have? And I know this is exhausting.<P>Wish I could give you a hug... this is unfair to you and your children. Can you get him to parenting classes and to family counseling?<P>It's like he has no clue as to how to be a father.<P>E

<B>Paintbox</B><P>I agree totally with <B>zorweb</B><P>My H & I put our children 1st due to his traveling, we neglected our marriage. Major mistake but it was not their fault. <P>But this is not children's fault. Parenting classes are wonderful. I wish I had more over the yrs. <P>Family therapy sounds like it might be a good idea for you all. <P>Best of luck.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sing (edited May 16, 2001).]

Paintbox,<P>I see where you're going with this, and realize you don't *actually* think your children are to blame... but when you put any blame whatsoever on even the existence of them, it is misplaced blame.<P>Only one person, and that person alone, is to blame for cheating. The offending spouse.<P>You can contribute to the marriage that was poor, your children can contribute to the stress in the home, but that's about it. <P><P>------------------<BR>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<P><I>Formerly 'new_beginning'</I>

Paintbox<P>I think you would have had a less visceral reaction of you had said is parenting stress to blame?<P>Frankly, having gone through this phase in life, I think that parenting is often a major stressor for marriage. At least that is what I found. My kids are now 15 and 9 and we are able to pay attention to our marriage (and ourselves) again. But when the younger one was 2, it was all I could do to keep my head above the water.<P>Yours is not an unusual situation. Mom takes all responsibiity for kids, dad does not know how to deal with kids, kids don't know how to relate to the dad. Family time together is not pleasant. Dad feels left out, withdraws, mom tries to compensate by focusing on kids, dad feels more left out. <P>Someone has to break the cycle, unfortunately only the adults can do that. That means either you or your husband.<P>Regardless of what happens to your marriage, you have to teach your husband how to be a good parent. Perhaps encouraging short, one on one trips/activities may help. Do you talk about kids and the stress it puts on you (individually as well as a couple). He might feel like an outsider if you and the kids are always seen as a unit. Perhaps finding time to talk to him about the bad behavior of the kids may be a useful way of getting this topic started.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paintbox:<BR><B>I've been thinking of all the 101 things that have come together to cause my husband to leave me, and have come to the conclusion that however socially unacceptable it might sound - our kids were partly to blame too.<P>Now, I know that we all tell our children that it is NEVER their fault - and that is the right thing to do - but how do WE really feel about it - here's my point of view:<P>My husband never really 'bonded' with our children at all - he worked long hours, while I stayed at home and brought them up. Sometimes he wouldn't see them for days as he was off to work before they got up, and home after they'd gone to bed. At weekends (if he wasn't working), the last thing he wanted to do was to spend time with the kids - so he would go off by himself and play golf, again leaving me to care for our children by myself. For a while, our children would plead for him to play with them - but gradually they got disheartened and eventually gave up even asking any more. He never cuddled them or showed them any affection either and so eventually they would always come to me for comfort, never him - and at bedtime would 'forget' to even say goodnight to him, let alone give him a kiss. I know that this hurt my husbands feelings tremendously, but he was unable to see that if he wanted to build up a relationship with his children, that he would have to start spending some real quality time with them - and it wouldn't get instant results either. Not suprisingly, our kids got very, very attatched to me and started to use all sorts of horrible attention-getting tricks if I was trying to spend time talking to, or being with my husband. Battles ensued - I couldn't even hold his hand without the kids squeezing in between us and forcing us apart. If we tried to have a conversation they would try every trick in the book to 'disturb' us and get my attention away from him - whingeing, whining, complaining, being silly, showing off, naughtiness, even falling over deliberately and then faking loud crying! My husband started to get increasingly annoyed with them - he could not see that ignoring their antics was the best solution - and retaliated with telling them off, shouting at them and eventually walking some distance away from us, isolating himself. Now he is living apart, he wants to try to improve his relationship with them, but is still having major problems actually being with them. Last Saturday we took friends out for the day, sightseeing in our car - 4 adults and 4 kids. It was horrific, one of their kids threw up several times in the car, the other one whinged and our two children fought like cat and dog with each other all day. By the afternoon, my husband was saying that he just wanted to get out of there and go home - he wouldn't join us for dinner that evening, and the following day he rang and said that he couldn't spend another day with us. Once again the kids had driven him away. Since then, he's only telephoned them once, very briefly, and will not say when he wants to see them again. I am convinced that the jealous behaviour of our children has played some part in destroying our relationship - any one else have similar sad stories?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Hmmm - yes, you are of course right, it is the fact that my husband has such rotten parenting skills that the kids have been driven to do these things. I know he is very jealous of the close relationship that I have with the kids too, which doesn't help! I think the point I was trying to make is that last weekend was the first chance we had to get together as a family again, even if some of it was 'faked' for our friends sake. I was really relying on the kids to be 'perfect little angels' to try and make him see what he was missing out on - but of course, they let me down - and badly. They are not bad kids, if it's just me with them, then we have a lot of fun together and they are (mostly) a joy to be with, but whenever hubby tries to join us - it's like waving a red flag at a couple of bulls, their personalities change into a pair of horrible little brats! What I mean about them 'driving him away' is that he has told me that he just can't cope with things any more and as soon as the kids start being difficult he just wants to 'run'. My most stressful times at the moment are due to being totally on edge whenever he is with me and the children - I'm desperately trying to create the image of the 'loving wife and perfect family' and attempting to get in as many love-deposits as possible, while our children seem to be doing everything they can to annoy him, push him away, hurl love-busters at him and generally smash my all my efforts to smithereens. I honestly think that I would stand a much better chance of rescuing our marriage if it wasn't for our kids at the moment! sigh!

Oh - another thing I'm finding it difficult to come to terms with is that once again, I am the one who is expected to take complete responsibility for them. If we get divorced then even though my husband has to pay child support, he still gets his freedom (he would probably stay in America while I moved back to England, so would only see them maybe once a year anyway). Meanwhile, I get to continue to be a 'single parent'. When do I get the chance to live my life, have some freedom and develop a social life? It's a pretty grim thought, but when I 'suggested' to him that it might be better for the children if he had custody of them, then he told me that he'd just have them put into a care home!! (I wasn't serious about giving him custody, I just wanted to scare him a bit, and I don't THINK he was serious about putting them into care, I think he was just trying to scare me back!).<P>The strangest thing is that I'm an 'only child' and not at all used to kids, whereas he comes from a big family!<P>Best wishes, Paint

<B>Paintbox</B><P>You are putting blame on your kids were it doesn't belong. You said that when all of you are together you are tense wanting everything to be perfect so your H will see what he is missing, well there is the answer to your children's behavior that are reacting to the tension & the stress they since in you.<P>You are putting your children in the middle of you & your H. It will only hurt your children, & it will show up by them acting out. <I> witch lady psychiatrics made a big impact on me</I>. <P>Get help if not for your marriage for your family, your children need parents that can effectively co-parent together, doesn't sound like your H does any parenting but provide finical support. Those kids need more; they need a father.<P>Sorry if I am coming down to strong but I don't want anyone not even the OW in my life to go through what I am dealing with my OS.<P>Hey, I was an OC also, & I think the biggest shock I had was sibling rivalry. I mean I heard of it but I didn't know people who say they love each other could act like that, what an eye opener. <P>[This message has been edited by sing (edited May 16, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by sing (edited May 16, 2001).]

I forget how old your kids are. It may make a difference. <P>Take a breather and relax. Your kids seem to be acting like normal kids. I know you want to present the image of the prefect wife/family but you can't force them into a mould. <P>Sometimes it happens, one parent gets assigned to be the designated caretaker. You are a couple made this decision, now its hard for you to walk away from it even if you want to. So don't fight it. Focus on the joy they bring to you.<P>Your husband must feel very inadequate as a father. So you have to focus on teaching your husband to be a good coparent. Have you been able to find time to talk to each other? How do these interactions go? First spend time away from kids and just focus on yourselves. Tell him he is a good man, he can be a good parent. You are sorry the these family interactions become so difficult. What can you both do to change them? Brainstorming together will help, at least give him a safe place to express his shortcomings. <P>Take care. Parenting is hard, marriage is hard. But both are ultimately worthwhile. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Katie_s (edited May 16, 2001).]

Your description of your H relationship with his children reminds me very much of my H's and myself. My children are grown now and have left home and now he has chosen to leave!He was often distanced from them, not seeming to know how to handle it all and very stressed by their "childish" behavior. I realize when I observe his uptight mother, who had four children, where he got this from. You know your children are not to blame but they don't make it easy! Can you possibly get time alone with your H to work on things? I would think that your relationship with your H is #1 and that needs to be worked on first. You can work on fitting the kids in after you save your relationship.I basically raised my kids myself emotionally, but he was always there finacially. It isn't perfect but it is still a huge contribution. To have a father present in the home is better than none, even if he isn't the greatest father.

Oh absolutely Maezy - the kids DO love him and miss him terribly - my youngest has had nightmares every night since he left and my eldest is really sad too. Like you said, even an emotionally distand father is better than none, and an 'artificially arranged visit with Daddy' once a week is no substitute for him actually being in the house - ready to answer difficult homework questions or to help with something on the computer for instance. Just his presence made us all feel secure and safe too - now I've got extra bolts on the doors!<P>I have already suggested to him that he only have one child at a time, as I know they will behave themselves fine on a one-to-one basis. The only 'difficulty' is that I am absolutely desperate for a break from the children myself, and by encouraging him to only have one of them at a time, I am also giving up the chance of the occasional child-free day too. <P>At one point, very soon after D-day he said the strangest thing to me - I was asking him questions about his relationship with the OW and mentioned that if they did 'get together' there might be some problems regarding children - she is 9 years younger than him, no kids yet - but she does want them at some point in the future. He had been saying for years that he definately didn't want any more children. Do you know what he answered? He said that "He felt ready to be a father now and would be happy to have children with (OW)". It was almost as if he wanted to wipe the slate clean of the mess he'd made with our children and start all over again with 'new' ones! Crazy!

I'm really torn on this question, but I agree that blaming the kids is more of a misplaced blame.<P>In my situation, the kids were a MAJOR factor in all of the 'stuff' that lead up to his affairs and our separation. On Sept 11, 2000, our oldest son, Andrew passed away in his sleep (for unknown reasons, he was almost 4 yrs old). As if that isn't enough to deal with, we also have an almost 2 yr old, and at the time of Andrew's passing, I was 3 months pregnant (not planned either). And if that's not enough, the pregnancy was with TWINS! <P>It was less than 2 months before the twins' due date that H decided he wasn't happy in our marriage. I ended up in hospital and they were born by emergency c-section 11 days after I kicked H out of the house.<P>But oddly enough, in our situation, the separation has been a wonderful thing, as far as daddy learning how to parent better. When he comes over for visitation times with the kids, the entire time is spent with them (well, me too.. but the focus is on the kids until they go to bed). If H was still living here, I don't think he would be taking part in as much as he does now. <P>I'll admit, I'm using the kids as pawns in him coming back to the family.. but really, it's a wonderful reason. They were conceived in love, and have a right to get the opportunity to be raised by their parents together, in love.<P>My H said the same thing to me about future children. With me, no, he wouldn't want any more. But should he end up with someone else, then yes, he would want more. That really hurts. Not that I want more with him either, but that feeling I get that the ones he already has may not be 'good enough' for him is what hurts.<P>We too, don't have anyone to watch all 3 boys for us if we want 'alone time'. That time is usually spent here at my house, and it's frustrating at how many times we are interrupted by the kids. Whether it's the 2 yr old looking for more attention, or the twins up for feedings. I know, it's not their fault, they're just being kids. But I can empathise in how they put a damper on things when they're going good.<P>Karen<BR>

I think this "ready to have more kids" is all part of the fog.Like my H being so anxious to have our kids out of the house and now he's back in a home with a 14 year old boy-with her. It's all roses at first, until reality hits.I hope that it is true about good things come out of A's, such as better relationships with the children they already have.

I don't think "the kids are to blame" is really what we're talking about, but as someone else said, "the stress of parenting" is no doubt a contributing factor.<P>Paint, I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot more men like your H than you think. My H and I chose not to have children, because we were both aware that neither of us was cut out to be parents. It wasn't a difficult decision for us to make, as I always knew I didn't really want kids, and so did he. <P>However, for people who perhaps aren't child oriented, but for whatever reason have not admitted this to themselves, being a parent can be something just too difficult to deal with. Women really can't escape from this (or usually don't, though we have some old-timers, men, here whose wives have walked out on their kids), but men can. Men can delude themselves that as long as they're bringing home the bacon, that's all that's necessary.<P>It's not easy in our culture to say, "I am not going to have children." I was about 43 before people started telling me I'd change my mind. Certainly parents expect us to give them grandchildren. I would guess that for many men, children are NOT a priority, and they go along with it because a) their parents expect it, b) their wives expect it, and c) the overall culture expects it. Some rise to the occasion, others don't. <P>For some men, it means their wives don't put them first anymore, and they feel rejected. My H is very, very needy of attention, and if a child took some of my attention away from him, my marriage would suffer. It's just the way he is, and trying to put him into a societal-approved box wouldn't change that. <P>I would hope, Paint, that at some point, your H comes around and decides he wants to be a father to his children. Others have said, and I agree, that kids suffer from perceived rejection by a parent, and it shows up later in self-destructive behavior. If your H does not come around, be aware that your kids will probably need some counseling so that they can realize that this is Daddy's problem, it's not anything they did.<P>As for what you can do to "make" him be a parent, well, I'm not sure you can. If he's in an infidelity fog, this is just another lovebuster in his mind. The way your H is talking, that he's ready to be a father now, just not to your kids, is pretty reprehensible, and just shows you how UNREADY he is. Unfortunately, any man with a decent sperm count and motility can biologically father a child, but your H sounds pretty darn immature to me. But again, there's not a whole lot you can do, other than protect yourself and be sure that you get the child support to which you're entitled.<P>Hopefully he'll come out of the fog before it's necessary.

Paintbox:<P>I'll concur with most of the other's here: there's no doubt that children can lead to extra stress in a marriage. And in fact, it sounds like your husband wasn't fulfilling one of your needs (to have an involved father around the house), and you weren't fulfilling one of his as well (having a wife who's willing to turn off "Mom" mode to pay attention to her husband). These issues are intimately linked---and you have to learn to meet each other half way, as well as use creative planning to get the time you need together.<P>A couple bits of advice. Don't set yourself up for failure in these "family" situations. Sightseeing in the car for the day---that sounded like a recipe for disaster. How about hiking in a forest preserve, or finding a very pleasant area with a large playground for kids---where they can occupy themselves for a bit? A rolling metal box is not usually the best place to build family time. As far as your idea about giving your husband "one kid at a time"---I think that's terrific. You also need to find someone who can babysit for you so that you can get a few kid-free hours a week. Either hire a baby-sitter or find a friend (with kids) and swap them once or twice a week.<P>Finally, if possible, discuss your husband's relationship with the kids with him. Try to POJA an agreement for him to spend some time and learn some effective parenting behavior. It sounds like he cares (the fact that he hurts when they don't pay attention to him)---but he needs to start the ball rolling---he's the adult (even if he's not acting like it).<P>

At one point my H and I took a Parenting Effectiveness Training class. I am not sure the class taught us much beyond what we already knew but it gave us a nice opportunity to talk to each other about parenting issues and we also got a chance to meet/communicate with other parents. These are called PET classes and are available in many communities.

Yes - you are right, the 'blame' is due to 'parenting stress' and I did word it wrong. Of course the children are only reacting to bad parenting - He's a bad parent period, I am usually a reasonably good one, but have times when the 'parenting stress' gets too much and then I drop down into the bad parent zone too. Dazed - you are spot on when you say that him being an involved and good father is one of my biggest emotional needs - it's just one of the needs I have learned to suppress over the years! <BR>I do appreciate it when he feels jealousy toward the kids as well - because I have periods of feeling the same way too. I am a romantic at heart and would just love to spend time with my husband, holding hands, kissing, chatting about our dreams for the future, but whenever we tried to do those things the kids always 'butt in' and take over, eventually we just gave up. In the end it got difficult for us to even have a conversation any more - even if we were alone - because we were so out of practice and couldn't think of anything to say That was a big love-buster for both of us, and 'conversation' was what he found first in the OW - they could be alone, no kids, great conversation. <BR>The problem is, now he has moved out, there is no reason for him to want to spend time with me alone - if he comes to pick up the kids, then he just picks them up and leaves. There is no chance for me to build deposits up in that part of his account. I thought about e-mailing him, but at the moment the OW is mailing him several times a day and I don't want him to think that I'm just doing it to compete with her - also, I have tried and he never replies to any of my mails. It's so difficult to Plan A when there are so many physical factors against you, sigh!

You need to find time to be with him without the kids. Would he be willing to go into counseling with you if told him:<P>I want to see if we can identify where our problems lie in order to see if we can make our marriage work.<P>But if not, we will at least come out of this with better understanding of ourselves and our relationship and be better parents.<P>Then of course there is the question making counseling work to strengthen the marriage instead of LBing. But I guess you can work on it.

Hi Paint,<P>It may appear that children are the cause. In reality, looking at the whole picture, they are just a part of the family. This A could happen with or without the children. <P>It is more focused on the selfish attitude of the WS. My H is #3 of 12 children. No attention from either parent. Both my in-laws apologize profusely to me now for their neglect. I on the other hand was an only child for the 1st 9 years and then had a younger sister. I always wanted lots of brothers and sisters. When I met my H's family, I was happy for the 'challenge'. What a challenge. Highly disfunctional family yet very intelligent people. What a combination. <P>When we married, I gave H as much attention as I could. I worked 60+ hours a week and tried to give H all that he had missed in his childhood, attention, opportunities, etc. Then 4 years later our son was born. They bonded before I did (c-section). I was happy. This did not last for long. Soon H was showing signs of jealousy of the baby. Couldn't stand the baby's crying (& he had a pair of lungs) and other things. I tried to still give both time. But as our child grew, H paid less and less attention. <P>This brings me to the current time and where I learned my most important lesson. At one point, OW 'claimed' to be pregnant. Hm.... H all of a sudden was going to be the supportive father and a lot more. Well, it was a false alarm and OW took it for as long as she could. <P>Then H made a statement one day (after he moved out) within earshot of our 6 year old saying: "I am a bad husband and bad father". After his dad left, our son said: "Mom, why would dad think he can get married again if he already was a bad husband? And dad used to be a good father before, why did he stop?" Hm..... made me think and I shared that with H. Stopped him in his tracks. <P>These little ones are what keep us going. They are not the cause of family strife, we are. We are the spouses and parents and should be the ones in control of our lives and that of our children. Maybe some of our spouses have not grown up. It is impossible to be a father and a child at the same time to your children. <P>I agree that all parents need some time to themselves. That is hard to do but not impossible. So I am challenged to do this also. For the sake of what? For the sake of our marriage and our family. <P>L.

I would have to say that 'blaming' the kids, would be a copout.<P>Having said that, and being the father of three teenage girls who has a wondeful relationship with all three of them, I can see where the marriage....suffered.<P>We don't spoil them, but both of us work full time...to make ends meet with hopes of sending them to college. We don't live extrvagant lifestyles. But between work...and the busyness of life....the marrige sure grew stale.<P>Spontanious sexual intimacy is a very, rare treat. And even 'normal' intimate times...rarely takes place due to proximity of bedrooms and sleep schedules.<P>I know we have not 'idolized' our kids to the point of doing everything for them. It's not like our lives just revolved around them and their activities. But I can say...that for one reason or another, we (wife and I) let the marriage get shuffled back to the back burner.<P>I was not looking for someone to get involved with. And I was the last person in the world I thought it would happen to. But it did.<P>There is no need blaming anyone. It is just sad place to be in...for a host of reasons.<P>