This may sound like an awful question, but I've noticed in a few posts on here, how some of us have lost a child. <P>In my situation, our oldest son, Andrew, passed away less than 5 months before I was told by H that he wanted out of the marriage (he was in an EA at the time, which turned to a PA within a couple of weeks of me kicking him out.).<P>I know of the stats, that many marriages break down after the death of a child. I don't understand that fully myself, in my line of thinking, it should make the marriage stronger.. is it just me who feels that way?<P>For those of you who have lost a child, was it fairly close in time to when the A happened?<P>I understand that there are so many reasons for A's to take place.. although NONE of them are at all rational. I guess I'm just wondering how many of you have found this same reason to be one of the big contributing factors.<P>Karen<BR>

Hi Karen, I've written about my son's death and it's contribution to my wife's affair many times here. I don't mind talking about it.<P>I think it is the most significant contributor and the stats back me up. Her affair began about 10 months after our son passed. I acknowledge we had other difficulties not related to our son, but our long struggle prevented us from tending to our marriage. I think these struggles can create a stronger relationship if it was healthy to begin with.<P>For my wife, my theory, corrororated by professionals, is that she didn't grieve very well and the affair was her escape. The really sad part is that OM was/is her best friends husband - a pallbearer - whose family struggled with us and was still grieving as well. A real mess.<P>I'd be happy to communicate with you outside the forum if you'd like.<P>Dave (WAT)

WAT,<P>It's sad... but H's first OW was a friend of mine for over 2 yrs. She and her H had come to one of Andrew's viewings (a 2 hour drive for them to attend!).. and their dd was friends with our Andrew too.<P>That just really makes it hurt all the more, doesn't it?<P>I can be written at topie25@hotmail.com<P>Karen<BR>

Karen,<BR>I have not lost child, but have friends that have & I can think of nothing (well, this betrayal thing would perhaps rival) worse. But wanted to extend my feelings to you in that all this has to mount up with the stress factor & that cannot be good & I know that sometimes is a bad thing for relationships.<BR>With your thoughts on OW -- I can understand -- From what I have read with other posts, sometimes the WS can be very indifferent to our perspectives -- manytimes(never always though) I believe a part of what makes a person willing to go forward with the illicit action of A is an overriding sense of self and even to the exclusion of others -- namely of course the BS -- As I'm sure you've read countless times here about this "FOG" thing which I agree with a lot of times -- but I know I get tired of hearing that as an excuse.<P>I'm sure lot of us have had our share of temptations & even perhaps opportunities to engage in some form of A -- what makes a person cross the line ??? In my case, I believe my WS has a personality trait that is very self centered & this prevents her at times to even realize how stupid certain things she may do or say are in affecting me & my feeling. Many WS have strong need to justify their actions -- perhaps this "Great Person" is some imaganary romantic figure that helps him justify his mis behavior - MHO? Not reality & may know it, but not willing to recognise himself.<BR>From my perspective, I would suggest you perhaps focus on this as his problem & try not to be overly concerned with him trying to influence you & make you feel guilty (I know, easy for me to say, huh)--<BR>This is very difficult & I just hope you can cope!<BR>I liked the way you expressed the slip of the filter -- seems you have a sense of humar!<BR>Best of Luck!<BR>HH

Topie, I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine anything worse. Although I've never been in your position, I can relate to the affair happening during a bad time. The day that my H confessed his unsuspected affair, I had just been told that one of my family members had passed away and I had also had a terrible argument with my father (to give you and idea of how bad the argument was, that was 3 1/2 years ago and I haven't spoken to my father since!). Anyway, to get to my point...On a message board similar to this one, I posted about how my H's affair had happened during a bad time. And the response that I got from someone really helped me....her reply was simply this: Would it have made it any better if he would have had his affair during a GOOD time, a HAPPY time, when everything was perfect and going well? That really helped me alot and I hope it helps you too, Topie.<P>Also, I've noticed from reading these boards that a lot of affairs happen during life-altering changes such as having a baby, taking a new job, or a move, etc.<P>Good luck to you and again I am so sorry for your loss.<p>[This message has been edited by Angelface (edited May 17, 2001).]

HH,<P>Thank you for your sympathies, and more importantly for your supportive response. I too get so tired of hearing that the 'fog' is the excuse, especially when it lifts so often! On a bit of a side note, I got really frustrated in one of my conversations with H the other night. We were talking about sex (something we find easy to do, always have), and began talking about being with other people. The subject of 'swapping' with another couple came up. H said that he wouldn't feel comfortable doing that behind each other's backs, and that if it were to happen, it would be in the same room. He then went on a bit of how it just 'wouldn't be right' to do that away from each other, and how it would make him uncomfortable knowing I was with another man if it wasn't in his presence. GOOD! Only problem.... he still doesn't acknowledge my being upset at his involvement with OW#1 anymore! DUH!!! Ticks me right off!! I guess the 'fog' thing just doesn't seem to cut it sometimes, eh? grin.<P>I do acknowledge much of what's happened as H's problem. In no way am I going to take all the blame! That crossing the line thing, has GOT to be for all selfish people. H has shown that characteristic in life towards other things all along (like unwisely spending 'family money' on something for him...usually something made of metal for the computer, at least something electronic anyways... and never anything for me or any of the boys).<P>And thank you for liking my 'slip of the filter' excuse (?)... lol. It's the best way to describe it for me. It's one of those 'changes' I've been working on... but just doesn't work anytime the OW is part of the conversation. <P>Angelface,<P>You are so right, it wouldn't have hurt any more or less if the A happened at a 'good time'. And in case you haven't picked up on some of my other posts that mentioned other things H and I were going through... here you go: We had been living with my dad for a few months following Andrew's passing, we only just moved to our new house in early December, then of course, the 'joy' of xmas (which wasn't so wonderful b/c of Andrew being gone, obviously... he was almost 4yrs old, and this past xmas would have been such a wonderful one for him!), I was 3 months pregnant when Andrew passed away, and we found out in October that it was TWINS! (2 boys, fraternal... 3 months old today actually), H tells me he isn't happy at the end of January, I kick him out on Feb 6th (the day before his b-day..ha! I know it wasn't a happy one for him..heheh), the twins are born by emergency c-section on Feb 17th after I was put in hospital on strict bedrest (my blood pressure had skyrocketed..wonder why?? grin), it's when I come home from hospital that I discover the PA with OW#1.. so I had to deal with that along with post partum 'stuff' (oh joy oh bliss) AND while recovering from major abdominal surgery! WOW! that felt good to vent out! hehehe. So yeah, life altering changes really DO play a part in A's! I am obviously the stronger one for not giving in to one (although, I have to admit, the thought has crossed my mind before.. human instinct I guess).<P>One of the things I have noticed while in the process of 'getting over' the A, is that it is a grieving process. I keep on wanting to rush through it all... and I think that's mostly because I've just been there and done that, know what I mean? I continually keep in mind something I read in one of my grieving books, "You cannot 'get over' the loss of a loved one until you've 'gone through' it". I focus on not being able to get over the pain of H's A, until I go through it. It makes a lot of sense (to me, anyways...grin). And I think I've done a really good job, all things considered...and there's a LOT of them! hehehe.<P><BR>Karen<BR>

Hi Topie25,<BR>There are many different reasons as to why A's exist. Unfortunately, in our society today, there is more stress and less communication because of so many committments outside of the home. I never realized before my marriage went sour how much work it actually was to keep a marriage alive and full of love and affection. It is a continuous job and rather exhausting at times. <P>To through in the mix, a loss of a child. I can only empathize with you. I have 3 healthy children that Im grateful for. I have however had suffered a "vanishing twin" pregnancy with my second child. For those of you who do not know what that is: You have one placenta and that placenta has two sacs. One of the fetuses could not continue to form so then it reabsorbed itself back into the placenta. It was a very uncommon thing, and I have yet to meet anyone with the same experience. So, no, I have never lost a child, but I do have another child that couldnt make its way to me and often wonder what that child would have looked like, sounded like, and what kind of personality. <P>I have worked in the medical field for years and am currently an EMT. I loved working with OB/PP and the babies. Im drawn to it with a certain desire. It shocks and puzzles me as to why God would take such little lives away from us. Im curious if you wouldnt mind sharing a little more about Andrew and his little journey in our world. I can understand it you arent able to. <P>Needless to say, I just want you to know that Im thinking of you and wish you all the peace you can find.<P>ILAC<P>"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you...Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.: John 14:27

ILoveACop,<P>What an awful ordeal to go through the vanishing twin pregnancy! I"m personally familiar with it.. but I'm just a natural info seeker, and read up on as much stuff as I could on multiple pregnancy after I found out I was having twins.<P>I would love to share my Andrew... but I don't know where to begin. I will however, share a poem I wrote (kinda cheesy, but from the heart..grin):<P>Andrew was our shooting star,<BR>His time with us so brief.<BR>His sparkling smirk, his cutest gesture,<BR>Was one beyond belief.<P>He loved to sing, he loved to dance,<BR>He even loved to read.<BR>And though he wasn't even four,<BR>We were sure he would succeed.<P>His blue-green eyes, his crazy blonde hair,<BR>A smile so true and sincere.<BR>To think we'll never see them again,<BR>Fills our eyes with tears.<P>For those of us who love him dear,<BR>No words can ever describe<BR>The way he touched our hearts and souls,<BR>Will never ever subside.<P>I also have a link you can visit to see his picture:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.funeral-cast.com/DNM-kellyandrew.htm" TARGET=_blank>www.funeral-cast.com/DNM-kellyandrew.htm</A> <P>Thanks for asking about him! That really means a lot to me.<P>Karen<BR>

Yes, we lost our second child, Lauren, at birth. In our case it was years before my H's EA. However, I do think it contributed to setting things up, along with many other things. My H never has dealt with emotions well, and while I fully grieved for Lauren, he did not. He dealt with it as he did with everything else of emotional impact; ignored it and went right back to work. <P>When he was hit years later with depression & fell into the EA, the counselor seems to believe that his unresolved grief played a role. And, in another way I can see how the differing ways we dealt with grief drove a wedge between us...I quit sharing how I felt with him, because he never shared how he felt with me, and I felt my feelings "bothered" him. When you cannot share your deepest feelings, a wall starts to build between you.<P>Kathi<P>

Hello, I have suffered the loss of my mother at age 9,<BR>my father at the age of 30, my brother at 40. none of these deaths has been so devestating as the betrayal, and continued betrayal of my spouse. This betrayal totally knocked me out, maybe because it went on and on the healing never happened,or the not ever knowing what is next, or and maybe this is because of the early deaths of my parents that the abandonment issue was HUGE. I can not imagine that the death of one of my children could produce that much pain in me again. For any of you that did lose a child, was it worse than the betrayal?

Lizam,<P>For me, I would say that the passing of my Andrew was and is far more devastating than the A's.<P>I will admit though, all of the physical symptoms I suffer are comparible. Both cases gave me dreams, good and bad, memories that make me cry with laughter and sadness, lack of sleep, no desire to eat, depression in general.<P>The differences that I notice, is that with Andrew, there are no regrets or anger. With H, I regret not 'seeing' what was happening, and taking my marriage for granted. And oh yes, there's been a LOT of anger... however, unless in reference to the OW, I'm past that phase.<P>And the biggest difference, is the fact that... how do I word this?... I can still see H, we can still talk, we can work together and build on our relationship. The word hope is too strong, but there's the chance (a good chance at that) for a future there. I can't have that with Andrew. He is gone from this earth. Like I said in my poem, knowing that we'll never see (his face) again, fills our eyes with tears.<P>Karen<BR>

lizam - for me the betrayal was worse. But I had time to prepare for my son's death.<P>WAT

I did not have a chance to prepare for either my daughter's death or my H falling inlove with someone else and telling me he was leaving.<P>Still, I would say that my daughter's death was much worse. He did not end up leaving, and eventually we got things back together, so maybe that is part of it, but I cannot imagine that the pain could be greater than losing a child...I cannot even describe that pain.<P>One big difference to me: while I can never condone what my H did, I can see that there were things both in the marriage and in himself that drove him that way. I never could find any sense in the death of a beautiful child, with her life in front of her. Senseless pain is so hard to handle.<P>Kathi

My younger brother died afew months before my "H's" affair became physical with his wife, My SIL told me that she'd been in love with my "H" for 15 years. <P>As a family my "H" and children and my self were instrumental in his daily care and the care of his infant daughter.<P>"H" told me and maintains that there was no "A" going on before Davids death (picture that one). Lots of time w/my "H" at their house at night while my brother was sick and dying...<P>Yes lots of pain going on during the illness of any loved one. But the loss of a child??? I'd rather think NO pain is as great. Not even an affair. <P>I'd sooner offer up my "H" than one of my children. Yes this thought is after the fact....maybe the "A" has lended itself to my conclusion. Never thought like this before...quite revealing.<P><BR>Live each day with no regrets...my motto<P>Love to all here who has suffered loss.<BR>d2k<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Discovery2000 (edited May 19, 2001).]

It is just truly amazing all the pain that we endure in this life. I know I could not have made it through one day without God. Even as a little lonely lost scared girl, I did not have the knowledge that God was taking care of me, but looking back now it is soooo clear that without his hand in my life I could have ended up taking a path that lead far away from him. I can't begin to thank him enough for this, even though I will never understand the Mother of 8 dying so young. God does give us the grace we need, not more not less, just what we need so it always seems that we think we could never endure "that terrible pain" that someone else has gone through.<BR> I describe the pain of my betrayal as being like, having your spouse on life support, and the doctor telling you one week it is hopless, we are pulling the plug, and then the next week saying it looks like he might make it. Now cycle this over and over and over for 5 years.<BR> I would have been glad to offer my husband in place of my children without a doubt. I could have pushed him off a cliff myself. So I guess the loss was not the hardest part of it, it was the betrayal( thanks at least that is now clear in my own head.) <BR> Please pray for my sister's family, my great niece passed away this morning at the age of 8 days. This family needs to find God and let his grace carry them through.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Please pray for my sister's family, my great niece passed away this morning at the age of 8 days.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am so very sorry...lizam, I will send up a prayer now. <P>Kathi