STL,<P>While I do not, absolutely do not, agree with your conclusions about S&M/D&S, I thank you for your thoughtful and insightful post. And I agree that this is not the forum to discuss our differences on the subject. I feel no need whatsoever to defend my sexual needs. They are a private matter between myself and my partner. We love each other deeply and cherish our relationship in all its aspects.<P>I believe that all can agree (including myself), that one should not seek fulfillment of sexual or emotional needs outside of marriage. But, as you well understand, it does happen and thus this site exists. And, like you, I believe this thread has run its course.<P>JAL

Nellie,<P>I agree with you. I should not have said "can't." I should rather have said "refuse to." You are right. It is a choice to remain or stay. It may be that we have a fundemental difference of opinion about whether one should stay in a marriage "no matter what" or not. If so, I respect your opinion, though I suspect I differ, and we can leave it at that. Thank you for pointing out my error. You were quite correct.<P>JAL

Lor,<P>I am sorry if I mistook your use of "kinky." Thanks for responding. I do not think our infidelity was justified or right. However, I do think my relationship with my partner is special. He is my mate. We share a deep intimacy and love which we cherish. Don't you think your relationship with your husband is special? However, the fact that we do love each other deeply and are very grateful to have found one another and discovered the ability to have such an intimate relationship does not justify the fact that we committed adultery. Like it or no, it is possible for two affair partners to end up in a deeply fulfilling and long-term relationship which is special to them. But, it does not justify the infidelity. I think that it is very unlikely that either of us will ever cheat on each other simply because we have learned what a terrible wrong it is.<P>To clarify my statement about his wife. His wife made clear that she found the whole concept of D&S (which is how I primarily describe our relationship) repulsive and sick. She was horrifed to discover his interest in it. She offered to participate out of desperation rather than desire or curiosity. This was what was so sad and also heart-wrenching for him. When I called this possibility a "perversion," I was referring to how wrong it would have been for my partner to make love to her in this way, knowing that she was only submitting to it out of desperation. Perhaps "perversion" was the wrong choice of words. And, in any event, the fact that he knew she found his desires repulsive certainly dampened any desire on his part. He would have to have been a beast to be able to become arroused under these circumstances and avail himself of her offer. <P>Also, as I said previously, obviously the lack of sexual fulfillment in his marriage was only one of the problems. My partner's affair with me would best be catagorized as a "split-self" and most of the materials I have read say that this type of affair is the most difficult to recover from and restore the marriage. My initial reason for posting was to point out that when one spouse has sexual needs which they (very wrongly) conceal from their partner out of fear or shame, it can serve as a catalyst which leads to infidelity and ultimately falling in love with the affair partner and leaving the marriage. Again, this is not right. The infedlity is wrong. It was wrong for us to do it and it is wrong for anyone to do it. I was merely trying to shed some light on what I think is not such a unique problem.<P>JAL<P>ps: I am not talking about any type of activities that cause actual physical psychological harm to anyone. That, I would find unhealthy.

JAL<P>I do have a question for you. What I gathered here is that both your ex-husband and your partner's wife do not share the same sexual orientation you two do. When in your life did you realize that this was your sexual orientation? When did your partner discover this about himself?<P>I am curious about the orientation concept.<P>Thanks<BR>Z

Well, you certainly get my vote for Queen of "I can twist things to be convenient for me" crown.<P>Quote #1:<BR>The sexual aspect of this relationship is manifested in private and others are not privy to it nor are they affected by it. Why, I ask you, is this such a great evil?<P>Opinion: Two broken marriages and no one is affected by your behavior? Open your eyes, listen. Do you not get what the people hear are saying to you?<P>Quote #2:<BR>She offered to participate out of desperation rather than desire or curiosity. This was what was so sad and also heart-wrenching for him. When I called this possibility a "perversion," I was referring to how wrong it would have been for my partner to make love to her in this way, knowing that she was only submitting to it out of desperation. Perhaps "perversion" was the wrong choice of words. And, in any event, the fact that he knew she found his desires repulsive certainly dampened any desire on his part. He would have to have been a beast to be able to become arroused under these circumstances and avail himself of her offer. <P>Opinion: How interesting that the behavior is perverse for the W, but not for you? Perhaps you just heard H's side of the discussion. I give the W credit for even considering it in an attempt to save her marriage. Or does this bother you because the D&S thing is what you and H shared-- the thing that made YOU special to him. If W took that away from you, you'd have to find another M to feel "special" with. Her (W's) desperation is less credible than yours or H's? BTW, he is a beast. <P>-----<BR>This thread just serves to anger those of us who are trying to wrestle with honesty and truth. We've all had enough with "fantasies". It's time for you to go away. Your fog is so deep, so irrational. Go be happy in your twisted rationalizations.<BR>

Hat,<P>I must say that you are very rude. Fortunately (for me), I do not believe in being rude in return. Let me clarify something. Yes, people were hurt by the infidelity. I have emphasized that. You misread what I wrote. What I asked was how could is it harmful or evil to anyone else what two consenting and caring adults two in the privacy of their bedroom? By this I mean any two adults, not my partner and I particularly. <P>Yes, I have talked to his wife. Yes, she told me in no uncertain terms that she considers her H's sexuality inately disgusting. The context of her offering was her begging him not to leave and basically offering to do anything, even something which both he and she knew she did not find sexually exciting and, in fact, found disgusting. That is very sad, a very sad time for them.<P>I am not threatened by his wife. I cannot control another human being. If he wanted/wants to be with her, then he will choose to do so. Am I worried about it? No. But, even if I did consider it a possibility, there would be nothing I could do about it. Also, as I said before, there were other issues in addition to the sexual aspect which I don't need to go into.<P>Lastly, you say my partner is a beast? Why is that? Because he committed adultery? Well, there are quite a few others right here who must love beasts, then. How could you possibly make such a judgement from such scant information? Not that it matters. <P>JAL<BR>

Zoreb,<P>For both of us, I would say it was our early to mid-thirties. It was some time longer, though, before either of us actually considered acting on it. Rather than "discovered", I would say the word would be "acknowledge" or "accept." As we (separately, we did not know each other at this time) became increasingly lonely in our relationships (for reasons including but not exclusive to our sexuality), I (we) also began to become increasing unfulfilled our sex lives with our partners. One way we differ is that, in my case, my spouse was really not a very good man, while in my partner's case, his wife was/is actually a very good person. This obviously made his situation more difficult. So, in our thirties, we began to gravitate towards information about D&S. We both (separately) began to realize that there were normal, every day people out there who manifested their sexuality in this way, that they weren't all wackos and deviants, that maybe, just maybe, it might be possible to have a relationship with a normal, every day person and be fulfilled sexually as well. Neither of us ever had an interest in pornography (still don't). Both of us had read a lot of books on the subject by the time we met. We had both reached the conclusion that this was a deep need. When we met, neither of us had an idea that the other shared the interest. Oh, let me add that as our thoughts came together, we were able to reflect back on our previous sexual experiences, on our earliest fantasies and even pre-fantasies (erotic thoughts or fantasies that children have w/out understanding eroticism) and realize that this was always, always, always a part of it. <P>Both of us have gone to counseling over the years. I have never, ever had a single therapist tell me that I was sick or deviant and needed to be "fixed" nor has he. But I have been told that I have a healthy understanding of my own sexuality. I remember the first psychiatrist I asked. He was a very elderly but sharp German man, tall with white hair and a mustache, the quintiscential psychiatrist, right out of a movie. I was very reticent but finally told him what I enjoyed and needed to be sexually fulfilled, and what did this mean? He commented, rather dryly, that I didn't exaclty invent it! He then went on to tell me essentially what I have said here. If you have a strong sense of self and good self esteem and if the interaction is loving, safe, and consensual, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. (So long as infidelity is not involved, of course! Just want to make sure Bhat doesn't misunderstand again!).<P>I hope this has answered your question.<P>JAL

My two cents... for whatever it's worth<P>I don't think THIS IS ABOUT SEX. I'm not a specialist, but I've been around enough "pain seekers" in my life that this is the conclusion I have formed. Those who seek pain (in and out of the bed) do so because they are trying to outwardly express or eradicate internal pain. Why do alcoholics drink? Same reason. What does high IQ have to do with it? Let's see, perhaps the intelligent "pain seekers" don't want to join gangs, become criminals or abusers so they direct their pain seeking attention closer to home (or a willing someone else's home), where they have greater control.<P>Don't take this personally JAL, but perhaps you're the one in need of counseling rather than trying to counsel Terri. <P>I have been the OW. It wasn't about sex. It was about meeting needs and forming an emotional connection (which I finally broke) and I do believe that there's a difference between making love and having sex... and inflicting pain.<P>Just my humble opinion.

BBhat,<BR>I agree with you on the fog. When you are there you cant see your way out. Up is down, down is up etc. I dont think there is a single poster on this board that will take JAL's side.<P>JAL,<BR>What brought you to the MB site to begin with? Just curious. You seem to have such opposing views and contradict all that MB and it's members stand for. You must know your opinions would be met with oppostion so why chance it and post?

The fact that she was the OW is a problem for people here, obviously, but to berate her now is useless, the MM and W are no longer together, MM & JAL are together, no use in crying over spilled milk. She came here to offer insight for those whose spouse strayed due to sexual unhappiness, and she did so in a pleasant manner, but since it wasn't what some wanted to hear (maybe ego/pride), this turned into a WITCH HUNT. I for one would like all kinds of insight into why spouses would stray. She is speaking in the sexual aspect of it for those who are too ashamed to talk about it. If she had come here saying "OH I HATE MYSELF FOR BEING THE OW, I FEEL SO GUILTY, I NEVER WANTED TO HURT ANYONE, I CONFESSED MY SINS, BLAH BLAH BLAH".....most here would congratulate her and welcome her with open arms. Much Adu About Nothing.

Naw--what I read is that because someone else could possibly fulfill my husband's sexual fetishes that I find--well, nasty--then it's too bad for me. It is fair for him to just up and leave for someone else because he wants to stick things in different orifaces of my body (fun?) and he absolutely has to fulfill his innermost desires or else his life will be meaningless.<P>Bascially it brings to mind many questions and taunts that OW had made towards me about whether or not I pleased my husband. After years of thinking that our lovemaking was beautiful, he basically told her that I was boring, and yada yada. (I read their chat.) How dare that woman intrude in my marriage and question my intimacy with my husband? Yet, he refuses to tell me what he and she DID together--that's a big sacred secret. (Because it's probably to gross to think about.)<P>That's what this OW is trying to get at, I am pretty sure. Feed your cat at home and he won't dig in the trash? What if he likes trash?--then you don't have a chance, and whatever in the world you could do for him won't make a difference. That's bull.<P>You are right, trying to forgive--it is a whole lot easier discussing subject matter with OP who feel a little bit more penitent. The OW in my case posted here a couple of times and the first thing she said was "I don't feel sorry for what I have done. . .but here's some insight as to what I am thinking!" Yada yada.

Bernzini:<P>Whenever a WS takes his needs outside the marital bed, in whatever fashion, they have broken a sacred trust, a covenant into which they entered with their W. No matter the type of sexual behavior, it had no need leaving that environment if the rules of protection, honesty, care and time, and the EN of the spouse are being met.<P>In the case of abnormal sexual desires that manifest themselves after marriage, the person has a choice to make: is the need for this type of sexual expression worth forsaking my entire marriage? [I would point out here to JAL and others that justify certain sexual preferences that Freud was also a German-speaking psychiatrist whose theories have proven over time to be complete hogwash. A reason, I would also point out, that I seek professional counsel from more than one source--it is far too easy, otherwise, to find counseling that only serves to thicken the fog in which we are enshrouded at the time.]<P>If your WS cannot come to terms with that and will not seek to have it treated, then there is nothing, really that you can do. Implement plan B, give them the choice, and if they fail to take the requisite steps, you can then go on with your life, knowing that you did all you could reasonably do.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

I think we all know that you should forsake all others for your marriage, but it obviously was not done or else there would be no need for this website. JAL has said the marriage had OTHER PROBLEMS too, do we know this to be true, NO because the W nor the H joined this website site JAL did. Steve Harvey tells us that affairs are not about sex all the time but it is a symptom that a breakdown in the marriage has occurred somewhere down the line. I read JAL as giving her SEXUAL ASPECT of her situation. Her MM was not happy sexually in his marriage and looked elsewhere. Isn't SEXUAL NEED one of the choices on the NEEDS QUESTIONNAIRE. It could be that SEX was the TOP NEED for the MM in this case and the W wasn't willing to fill this need until it was to late for the H or so he thought. Maybe he should have let the W try to fill this need b4 bailing, but we can't live on IF'S, BUT'S and MAYBE'S. I didn't read anything flammatory in JAL's post, just a different view on a different topic. But hey, that's just my take on it. This reads as if everyone is lashing out at JAL for the MM's mistake of not giving his wife a chance to fulfill his desires. JAL is no different from any OW in her thinking that her take/belief on where the marriage failed is correct. But we all know unless she lived in the house or inside the minds of her MM and W she will never know, she will only know what MM allows her to know and she will believe what her heart can handle. The only thing she did was give us a different story.<p>[This message has been edited by trying2_4give (edited May 30, 2001).]

I dont see this thread as having turned to a witch hunt. However, I do see JAL defending herself and her actions. I am curious to see the answers JAL has for the questions I asked earlier.

51 posts and going strong ya'll. This is the grain of salt I am talking about,,, you can not come to a happy conclusion and I for one think that she came, she stated her view and as some have already pointed out some will talk with her about it and some will tell her to blow off.<BR>Seems to me that every aspect has been poked and probed and every situation scrutinized,,, after 51 posts has anyone really changed your mind? have you been so enlightened by her point of view or anones for that matter that has made a real difference? NO... <BR>This world she speaks of is obviously something that a huge majority will not understand or condone as everyone has an opinion based on their age, status, sexual orientation, philosophy, morals or personal background and then some people tho I havent seen one yet,,, will say I like that S&M stuff too ,,, either way,, this is a painful subject since it is too hard on everyone and JAL, I think has just about covered all areas and has been in my eyes more than gratious by not throwing punches when she has been jabbed... I say lets call this thread THROUGH>>><BR>but then again that is just my opinion I am sure I might be wrong..LOL

Amen Sister, she is gonna do what she wants to do. Free will is free will. Have fun (I guess) I just hope she doesn't get killed! Good Bye!!

Is is Twyla that said she was a Conflict Avoider? wait a minute I might be one too... OMG... I need to investigate this further and spend my day arguing the unarguable...,,, nawh,,, I have three kids and dinner to go fix for my sweet H who knows better than to ask me for kinky sex...LOL,,just kidding,,, lighten up everyone <BR>Peace and good night...<BR>C1

Yes, I would like to say that I am through with this thread, too. The last thing in the world that I want to do is make someone feel bad for what they have done (I am not being sarcastic.) I sure don't try to be mean to anyone--funny how people that post here really get over excited if they feel the least bit offended (believe me, I was on the D/D board for a long time, it was better than professional wrestling sometimes.) Lord knows, I have done plenty of rotten things in my 34 for years, I have no reason to judge anyone. Actually, I don't really care what anyone does in their bedroom, it's not my beeswax and I sure as heck don't want it to be. My take on sex is that it's between two people, and if I myself am not one of the two people, then I don't want to know about it. However, when one of the partners in the bedroom in question happens to be my own dear husband, then I have a reason to be concerned.<P>However, this journey for me is just beginning in my life--this endevour to keep my husband. When I found out that he was cheating, the root of it being "unfulfilled sexuality," I believe, it was while he was gone out on ship. (He's in the military.) After he e-mailed me the "I'm not in love with you speech" I went home to mom for almost a year. I am back with my husband now, but as soon I returned to this house, he left again almost immediately. <P>Now I am paranoid. He could be doing anything, anywhere, with anyone, and I would not know. He goes to places in the world where you can pay girls to do just about anything--Thailand, Singapore, the Phillipines. I can't stand the thought of losing my husband again. <P>Let's just say that I am not trying to get into anyone's face about what they post--the problem is mine and I don't know what to do about it.

Bernzini<BR>I hear you here and eventhough your H is gone ,,, its kinda like my dad used to say its not just something that is done at night.. in other words just from looking at this site I am sure you can see that where there is a will there is a way and a ws does not have to be out of town to do what they do... it happens much more than we would care to admit... please do not drive yourself crazy worried about things you can not change... only the guy above can help us there...<BR>All I have been trying to do is say to not get so wound up over someones opinion that it is more hurtful than helpful... she is entitled to her opinion and she has stated why she came here wheather we agree with her reason or not does not matter it is a free forum and I dont think she has been rude,, a bit out there for the general public,,, but not trashing anyone at all.. it is difficult to not get ones feelings hurt expecially if it is something currently being worked on in someones home... sometimes i guess the shoe fits and then we feel that we have to defend..<BR>Hang in there and I think overall it is time to call it a day... again folks do what ya want but I watch patiently from the sidelines waiting for ya to run out of steam and get back to helping each other as we should..<BR>blessing to everyone.<BR>C1

Heart's Cry,<P>Actually, I honestly had no idea that people would be so adverse and literally irate over what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom. I fully expected people to be upset and disgusted by the infidelty. That is understandable and I even agree. I have said over and over again that infidelity was and is wrong, that what we did was wrong, etc. etc. etc. As to why I posted, I thought I had covered that already? In a nutshell, I felt compassion for Terri and thought I would add my view to take or leave as she pleased. And, while she seems not to have found it useful, she was very gracious in her response. My respect for her remains very much intact. I can say of a certainty that I did not post with the intention of hurting or challenging anyone. But, since you consider me to be so lost in a "fog" that I am incapable of rational thought, my answers probably are not worth much to you anyway. <P>TRose,<P>I have no doubt that some people use D&S/S&M in an unhealthy way to mask deeper problems. Likewise, there are plenty of people who use conventional sex in an unhealthy way to mask their problems. As I said some time back, unwell people abound. However, I don't happen to be one of those people. I don't think you can make a blanket statement that "all" people who have these needs are actually dealing with repressed issues. As with any group or behavior (be it sex, eating, exercise, etc.), some are and some are not.<P>SEL,<P>If you are still reading, you might notice that I said I had consulted several therapists/psychiatrists (the German fellow was only the first)over the years and have read many books. As I said earlier, never have I had a single psychiatrist or therapist tell me that my understanding of my sexuality was in any way unhealthy. Now, they did express disapproval of the EMA as being unhealthy and wrong. And, they were right about that.<P>Bernzini,<P>I'm sorry if I got the spelling of your name wrong. You have every right to be very, very angry with both your H and the OW. The reason my H's W even knows about this aspect of our relationship is because he told her and he answered every question she had. At the time, I felt very angry about this. I felt that an intimate aspect of myself had been revealed without my permission. But, upon reflection, I came to the understanding that she had been so violated in her marriage by her H's choice to pursue me and my choice to enter into the relationship that she had every right to know every detail. And, when she confronted me, I apologized (an apology I know is worth little to BS) and I also answered every and any question she asked, irregardless of whether or not it made me uncomfortable. She had a right to know everything. This was her life and her marriage that was ending. She had to have all the pieces. It is very, very wrong for your H to withhold this information from you and for the OW to taunt you. This type of behavior has nothing to do with their sexual preferences and everything to do with their character (which seems to be lacking).<P>JAL