Hi all,<P>No time for a lengthy response here. Just wanted to say that I am reading and will respond when time allows. A quick question for all: What of the situation regarding my cousin that I proposed to Nellie? Do the rest of you feel, as Nellie does, my cousin was obligated by her vow to remain in the convent irregardless of her ability to be fulfilled in that life? While there was no spouse to be devasated by her leaving the convent, certainly she had relationships with others who had been in the convent with her for over two decades and she was needed and depended upon by many. <P>JAL

Concerned,<P>One more quick response and then will respond in more depth later. I don't intend to "throw a lot of big words out there." I just use my vocabularly. Glad your Mensa chapter is amused. I assume they are all superlative spellers? Yes, my IQ is high, high enough, I understand, to pass the MENSA test (two of my siblings have). I have never taken it and never will. I feel no need for that type of validation, let alone hanging around with a bunch of other people patting themselves on each other's back for being such geniuses. Yuck. That's the impression I got from a few of the activities I participated in with my siblings. I can just picture them all sitting around chuckling with each other at my spelling or grammar errors. You just reminded me, again, why I'll never take the test.<P>JAL

JAL my mother did the same thing,,, she went into a convent when she was distraught over her brothers death... the nuns kicked her out when they explained to her that her vows were based on grief and would not last,,, noone should stay in a convent based on anything less than true commitment... soooooo as long as the BS feels committed to the relationship and is willing to keep on trying I think that is why they stay... you are assuming that they are staying just because they feel that they should regardless of the circumstances...<BR>so when you have time will you ponder with me how you the abuse affected you ? and did the good doctors take this into consideration when they told you that you were sexually healthy?<BR>thanks<BR>C1

About your cousin’s situation. <P>I see it as being very much like marriage. The church does too. She married the body of Christ and the Church when she took her vows. <P>And the same holds for her religious vows as it does for the marriage vows. According to the Catholic Church, just as your cousin entered into a religious vocation, a couple enters into a religious vocation when they marry. That is why marriage is on of the 7 (I think It’s seven) sacraments that a person can receive in their lifetime.<P>So in both case the same rule applies the vows are for life. However the church and society recognize that there are circumstances under which a person cannot continue in a marriage and is any other religious vocation. Neither vow should be broken lightly. <P>I would say that you cousin and her order should go through the same thing a married couple should go through before getting a divorce (and an annulment or dispensation in the case of Catholics)… She and her Mother Superior should evaluate what needs are not being met on both sides. Evaluate why she is falling from grace with her vows. After 20 years she may just be burnt out and need a long sabbatical, the Church will usually offer this solutions to nuns and priests who need it. If she were my cousin I would certainly advise her to take a sabbatical before she made her decision to leave. If in the end your cousin decides that she can no longer live up to her vows, then she should leave the order.<P>This same discussion would hold true for a married couple. The Catholic Church does allow for annulments and dispensations under certain circumstances such as abuse, alcoholism, and adultery with mitigating circumstances. From my research, the church holds that is a married couple simply feels that they have grown apart and are no longer compatible then they may not receive an annulment or dispensation. In that case there is still a viable marriage. The couple can live apart if they so choose. However, even if they receive a civil divorce, the Church still sees them as married. The Church sees any subsequent relationships and marriages as adultery. Many Catholics in the United States do not live by this last rule and go on to remarry without the benefit of an annulment or dispensation. <P>You bring up the point that many people depend on your cousin. I assume you are saying this is the same as a spouse leaving a marriage in which their spouse depends on them. I see a fundamental difference. In a marriage, the marriage exists only because both parties made the vow. In the case of your cousin, the religious order existed before she joined it and will continue after she leaves. Its very existence does not depend on her keeping her vows. As for the people who depend on her, there are others there to take up the slack when she goes.<P>People make marriage vows and religious vows with the promise and hope that they are for a lifetime. Sometimes things do not work out the way we envisioned and the marriage or vocation is ended.<P>However, the very manner in which those are broken is what is being discussed here. If your cousin broke her religious order vows by trashing everyone around her, by bringing satanic rituals to the convent, etc etc. Then she would be harming her order in much the same way one spouse harms another through abuse and adultery. In the case of this type of abuses, her order should Plan B her until she gets out of the fog or expel and excommunicate her. <P>And just a reminder here… in most cases affairs do not end marriages. They serve as a wakeup call. Only 8% of marriages in which there is an affair end.<P>An aside… about the MENSA thing… My husband, our children and I are all able to pass that test. We share your feeling about it not being worth it. I work in a research industry where I am surrounded by people with high IQ’s and PhDs. Have actually heard them comparing their IQ and MENSA scores. But these are people who could not function in a normal work environment. I am a little more humble then they because my father, one of the most brilliant people I have ever known taught me to be humble about such things. IQ is a gift but nowhere near as import as emotional intelligence. My point is that no matter how high a person’s IQ, we all have weaknesses and strengths. One of mine is that despite a high IQ I am somewhat dyslexic. My spelling is atrocious… Thank goodness for computers and spell checkers. But ask me to design and write software that will fly a satellite and I’m in seventh heaven – have already done that and it was a blast.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Still behind on responding! Terri, I will respond, just want to think things through. <P>Concerned, my marriage involved mental, not physical abuse. I also started somewhat early in this marriage wanting to learning more about and experience my sexuality in the way I discussed. I tried to give him books, etc. His response was to use it as a way to ridicule me and to insinuate or outright say that I was sick. It just played into his hands. I feel saner and more empowered now, more healthy as an individual and complete both in my relationship and my sexuality than I have ever felt.<P>Zoreb, yes there are 7 sacraments. This happened some time ago (my cousin). She did end of leaving the order and did get the dispensation to do so. In order to get this dispensation, a waiting period is required. She subsequently married but her husband died of Lou Gherig's disease a few years later. I know that she struggled with this because she did take her vow seriously and also felt keenly her responsibilities towards so many who depended on her. You your thoughts on the whole IQ thing parallel mine and were much better put. My children, too, have consistenly tested in the 99th percentile on every subject all their lives. We have struggled with issues related to that (and I know you are familiar with how many these can be!). I have tought that that intellect, like physical beauty or any talent, is a gift that has been entrusted to them and which they must use wisely and well. A family friend of ours is a MENSA member as well and has to be one of the most socially dysfunctional people I have ever met. I count among my friends academics and high school grads. The only reason I brought up the whole IQ thing was stated in my initial post. It wasn't to toot my own horn.<P>I think there are circumstances where a vow can be broken. I don't think it is the place of others to legislate or impose on others their opinion of whether or not proper consideration has taken place. We can only hope that we, as individuals, each undertake proper consideration, as did my cousin. And, as in her case or in the case of a marriage, there are always going to be some who are going to be very unhappy about the vow being broken because they are affected negatively. I also agree with your assessment of the differences between emotional or physical abuse and adultery. Even though the abuse does psychologically impair one, they do at least have a choice. You have pointed out very correctly that this choice is stolen from the victim of infidelity. There is no way to restore those lost years. <P>JAL

Terri,<P>Never have I said that my relationship was special and that we were therefore entitled to have an affair. Never. I don't believe it, and I have not said it. I have merely tried to get into one aspect of one's sexuality which may, in some relationships, set the stage or precipitate that person doing something wrong, namely having an affair. I think it happens a great deal more than people think. If I'm not mistaken, it was my understanding that people in general, and those here in specific, seek to understand why the affair occurs. Understanding why and sanctioning it are two different things. My main goal was to provide some insight into one of the "why's", not to sanction it or excuse it. I don't know how many times I have to say that. Nor am I trying to convince anyone of it. I have never tried to convince anyone of it. I'm not trying now. <P>Even if one's relationship did not work out as they wished, even if the errant spouse did not return and they must go on with their life without them, it is (at least in my opinion) always beneficial to understand the "why's" as best one can.<P>I certainly did not intend to hurt you. While I can't say I won't continue to answer questions if they are directed to me, I would encourage you to advoid any posts by me if you find them painful. I don't even expect you to respond to this post, not at all. <P>I can't begin to fully understand what happened in your marriage. No matter how many times someone posts, you just can't understand each situation unless you have been there. But, I do feel I have a bit more understanding into one little aspect of things than some others may. And that little but of understanding is what I offer. It's not useful to you, and that's fine. It was not offered with the expectation that it would be.<P>As to his wife, she does have choices, as does he and as do I. It's just that the choices (as I pointed out to Bernzini) are not the ones she wants. She wants the choices to include a restored marriage. It doesn't. In my previous marriage, I wanted the choices to include a whole, healthy family and a good father for my children. It took me a long time to accept that I couldn't pick that choice because it didn't exist. Were my remaining choices ones I was thrilled about and embraced? No! But, finally, after grieving and struggling for that loss, I left.<P>Definitely, if you feel that communcating with me is akin to banging your head against a wall, you should not respond. When two people can't communicate, it doesn't always mean that neither has anything of worth to say, but sometimes that's beside the point and not really relevant in the grand scheme of things.<P>JAL

Zoreb,<P>I meant to add that I am highly skeptical of affair statistics. I think it is very likely that the majority of affairs do not end in marriage with the OP. That would be if you included all affairs such as one-night stands, etc. But, I suspect that if you did a study of long-term affairs only, you might find that quite a few of them do end in the end of the marriage and marriage to the OP. And, it would also depend on the type of affair. Most pro-marriage counselors, for instance, agree that split-self affairs are the most difficult to recover from. I'd bet that quite a few of these do end in marriage to the OP. <P>I am highly suspect of how these statistics are gathered? I assume they are gathered by therapists. Of course, the majority of people don't see therapists. Now, perhaps if one did a vast mailing to all those involved in second marriages and the respondents were all honest (highly unlikely) we might get a clearer view of things. Another reason that I am skeptical is that I personally know of several such second marriages. I just don't think they are that rare as is presented (the 3% success rate statistic). This isn't to excuse them, it's just to say that I believe the statistic to be a great deal higher.<P>I think that the repeated use of the low statistic is a double edged sword. On the one side, it gives hope to those who are struggling with affairs and perhaps encourages them to hang in there longer and gives recovery a greater chance. On the other hand, for those whose spouses do leave for the OP (and, again, I believe this to be much higher than usually cited), it makes them feel as though they are some of some very small and cursed minority. <P>I am not a professional in the area of statistics, so I have no research, etc. to back up my thoughts. They are just personal opinions. I actually find most statistics of this type to be suspect because they couldn't have possibly gathered them in any accurate way. But, again, that's just my opinion. There are several studies I've read re &S and S&M relationships which I haven't cited because they were in publications which were promoting the health of this lifestyle. Also, again, I feel that they could not have possibly been gathered with a truly reliable sample group. Therefore, they obviously bear some bias. Likewise, I beleive that statistical studies by, say, Frank Pittman are inherently biased and therefore not reliable. He already has an opinion formed; he's just seeking the data to back it up. That's not good science.<P>JAL

I have been suspicious since the beginning of this thread - and after this last post, I am quite certain. It is easy to change the details of a story, and far more difficult to disguise one's writing style, and the little things are even more difficult to hide. There can't be all that many lapsed Catholic OW's with Buddhist leanings with such strong feelings about affair statistics, a wealthy OM, etc. But now I am wondering which message board has the real story, if either...

- double post -<p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited June 03, 2001).]

Nellie,<P>Color me stupid, I don't ever get these things until they're spelled out in great big letters... anyway, I haven't figured "it" out ... it's a mystery to me.<P>JAL,<P>It's very late, and I'm tired, so maybe I shouldn't be writing... I tend to be blunt at times like these.<P>I've written to you before...way back on page something-or-other, and I expressed concern about your well-being, because intelligent (MENSA not withstanding) or not, it does not make you immune to pain, or to causing pain.<P>I've had enough pain in my life to last ten lifetimes. I never want to go through anything like this again. Here's what I don't get: I don't get how the W of this man is hoping for a restored marriage, and he doesn't divorce, yet you hang on anyway. Yes, I read all that you wrote, and I still don't understand. <P>I don't understand why the H stays (legally and morally bound) with her, why you think he'll stay with you, and why you accept the status quo.<P>Just my ponderings for a Sunday (really late Sunday) night... <yawn><P>

Nellie1<P>Please explain what you are talking about? Do you know who JAL is?<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Nope, and I didn't say that the only choices I was setting my heart on was a restored marriage. JAL, you completely missed my point. I said that I wanted a marriage, if indeed there is to be a marriage, in which I was not lied to and that there was not a husband who lead a secret double life.<P>There is no room in a marriage for lies and where one spouse secretly goes to the "wunderground" or the "vault" to enact his fantasies, knowing that the other spouse is not part of the fantasy (and in fact, thriving on that fact.) If he is posting in swinger's ads, behind my back, we have a problem. If he wants to go there, then he can, but we won't stay married. And I can live with that.<P>My husband wants his cake and he wants to eat it too. That's not the way it works. He wants a mom for his kid, he wants a housekeeper and a go-fer, a pretty wife to take out on his arm in public, and regular sex. (me) He also wants to have Miss Kitty (and those like her) who sends him e-mails about how much she wants to be bulldozed by him. See--he needs to settle for one or the other. If he wants her, that's kosh, but I am not going sit around and try to carry on a normal life WITH him if he's going to do that. Otherwise, I have a life of my own to live. I have a built a beautiful environment that does not include him, as he was absent during the heighth of the affair. I have my kids, my cat, my job, my church, my piano, weightlifting, my budies at the gym, my hobbies--everything that makes me happy. I don't NEED to be married to him to be happy.<P>HIS choice, if he could have eveything he wanted, would be to have both worlds. Is that the choice you are talking about him making? Cause if so, it aint happenin. I don't want to be married to a man who will be giving me cooties from his other women.<P>Speaking of choices--HE'S making the choices. I am sitting back and letting him decide if he wants to be married. If not, cool. All he has to do is tell me. For once, all he has to do is be honest. Honesty, not money, makes the world go round. That's all I care about.<P>You are just not getting it.<P>See, like your friend's wife, I am not going to file for a divorce I never wanted in the first place. My husband wants to screw around, I won't accept that, and he can file if he really does not want me. But he won't. He threatens to do it to get a rise out of me, but he won't do it. He wants to make it look like I am the bad guy--like I am making the choices. But I am not making any choices except for to stand by him in the event that he decides to be faithful to me. Like your friend's wife. She didn't want a divorce, now did she? Seems like YOU two are making the choice for her--you are making her live in limbo. Either she puts up and shuts up, or else she lets him go forever, when she never wanted the latter. Are you waiting for that to happen, for her to divorce him, or are you happy living with a man who is married to someone else?<P>It made me really sad, the nonchalant way you described how she put her self-help books in the trash, and he gathered them up (because they cost good money) and gave them to you (Hello!!!! How cold-hearted can you get?) I have entertained this secret fantasy (that I would never enact) about taking all of my self-help books, about 150 lbs worth, and dumping them in Miss Kitty's driveway. Along with the bathrobe that I bought my husband for Christmas and found a picture of her wearing. And the fuzzy red blanket. And the futon. And the panties. And all the photographs--and the two reams of paper worth of e-mails and chat. But especially the self-help books. Testiment to how much I loved my husband and wanted to save my marriage--would it possibly scratch her conscience a little? At this point, I doubt it. She, like you, probably thinks that she did more for "her man" than his wife did and that all's fair in love in or war. To the victor goes the spoils, self-help books or no.<P>Like Terri said, we all have pretty much heard the story of how every relationship concieved in infidelity is unique and special. But it's all the same ball game, different players. Except sometimes the game ends where the home team gets creamed.<P>Maybe if you understand at this point that your relationship with this married man is wrong, you might consider ending it or at least modifying it. Now that you ackowledge that your relationship is wrong and hurtful, are you going to continue it? Unless you don't mind doing things that are wrong and it doesn't bother you. And as long as there are white-haired old doctors that assure you that what you are doing is okay, whether it is or isn't. I guess you know that what you and this guy have done to his family is wrong, but I doubt it will change your mind. Ya know, there are too many people in the world that think that they are the exeception. Like my basic training drill instructor used to say "Do YOU think you're special or something?" Guess everyone figures they are special.<P>Sorry, but I am a little mad.<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited June 03, 2001).]

Bernzini<P>Here is my take on the situation. Mr. “Wonderful” is afraid to commit to either his wife or his mistress (JAL). So he sets up a situation in which he cannot possibly commit to either. He adapts a sexual orientation that his wife is uncomfortable sharing with him. Of course he cannot commit to his wife because she will not give him the sexual satisfaction he wants. Out of sheer goodness (barf) he does not divorce her. Then he gets a mistress who will fill his sexual fantasies. But he cannot commit to his mistress because he is married. People who do not want to commit to anyone completely use this type of set up all the time. <P>So he lives as a single man but is married to one woman and has a mistress. And who knows how many other women he has on the side. I would bet that this man travels often without either his wife or his mistress. My bet is that there are other women in other ports. One thing I have discovered about men is that most of them can find plenty of ways to wiggle out of a commitment. As in “Hey, I can do what I want to. I am not married to you.”<P>My speculation is also that JAL (sorry about the third person here JAL) stays because she is also afraid to totally commit. So the relationship works for them.<P>I know this is just speculation. But I’ve known men like this. They have a lot of money and a lot of power and they do what they want to whom ever they want because women are so impressed with the power and the money. Sure they are good looking, educated, sophisticated, charming and yada yada yada. My first love is this type of man. We fell in love when I was 13 and he was 17. Eventually I decided to not marry him because I realized the type of man he was. We are however still friends. After 38 years he still calls me once or twice a month, emails me and sends me post cards from his trips. He tries to set up dates with me every time he’s anywhere near my part of the country. He’s even invited me to take trips with him to Europe and the Orient. You know, for old times sake like we used to do when we are young and single. He tells me about his wife and the women he cheats with. Each of these women thinks they are his only true love. And he still tells me that I am the love of his life and wants me to be in a relationship with him. What a joke. Nope, no way, will not do. To me the power and the money mean nothing. I a man then what am there. He may have a 500 page tax return, but how impressive is that is he is emotionally and morally bankrupt?<P><BR>Z<P><BR>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited June 04, 2001).]

I probably shouldn't, but I'm going to anyway... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Never have I said that my relationship was special and that we were therefore entitled to have an affair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And neither did I say that you said that. I never indicated you had said any such thing and was quite careful not to do so. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have merely tried to get into one aspect of one's sexuality which may, in some relationships, set the stage or<BR> precipitate that person doing something wrong, namely having an affair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In your first post, you indicated that the type of sexuality that you share with your MM is a drive that cannot be set aside, and actually called it a sexual "orientation." As such, you stated, it was completely undeniable. So, is it wrong to seek expression of one's sexuality then, when one is married to someone that doesn't share it? Or, is it wrong to deny that sexuality and to honor one's committments? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think it happens a great deal more than people think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And on what factual, scientific data do you base this assumption? I have read many many more than just Dr. Harley's books, and sexuality rarely enters into the reasons for affairs. Whether or not you believe that data published by therapists are valid, the fact remains that each of these therapists has far more experience in the field of infidelity than you do, and each of them cites the work of others in addition to their own case studies. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I'm not mistaken, it was my understanding that people in general, and those here in specific, seek to understand why the affair occurs. Understanding why and sanctioning it are two different things. My main goal was to provide some insight into one of the "why's", not to sanction it or excuse it. I don't know how many times I have to say that. Nor am I trying to convince anyone of it. I have never tried to convince anyone of it. I'm not trying now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The problem is, JAL, that when someone questions your motives as the OW, you have resorted to the same words of justification that every other OW has used. You may not see that, but we do, because we have seen it over and over and over again! In our own lives and here on the forum! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Even if one's relationship did not work out as they wished, even if the errant spouse did not return and they must go on with their life without them, it is (at least in my opinion) always beneficial to understand the "why's" as best one can.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, and do not argue at all with that. The trouble is, the "why's" can really only be understood if they are told by the people involved. And the people involved for us sometimes never say a word. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I certainly did not intend to hurt you. While I can't say I won't continue to answer questions if they are directed to me, I would encourage you to advoid any posts by me if you find them painful. I don't even expect you to respond to this post, not at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I realize you didn't intend to hurt me. And I was actually surprised that the subject actually still did hurt me. I would find it difficult to avoid your posts, because I have been on this forum a long time and feel that it is part of my duty as a human being to support others here. I read as much as I can, especially topics that I find controversial. My indicating my hurt was an explanation as to why I hadn't posted again. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And that little but of understanding is what I offer. It's not useful to you, and that's fine. It was not offered with the expectation that it would be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Odd, in your first message, directed to me by name, you said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Please believe that I mean no harm and only hope to give you some greater understanding to alleviate, at least a little, your pain. Maybe do for you what I cannot do for MM's W.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That sounds like you indeed posted with the expectation that it would be helpful or useful to me.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As to his wife, she does have choices, as does he and as do I. It's just that the choices (as I pointed out to Bernzini) are not the ones she wants. She wants the choices to include a restored marriage. It doesn't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is clear that you have different ideas of marriage than most of us do - understand that this is not just a forum about infidelity, it is a forum on a website that promotes restored marriages. In terms of what we do here and what we believe here, you and your MM have, indeed, taken away the wife's choices - not all of them, that's true. However, the choice of a restored marriage is something that we all believe should be one of the most important choices that people have. Granted, we don't know what other things were wrong in the marriage of your MM and his wife, but we DO know that one of the most painful wrongs that can be done to a spouse has been done to this man's wife - something no person deserves. For you, the OW in this marriage, to say that she has choices, just not the ones she wants, is akin to an executioner offering the condemned their choices - which way do they wish to die, not if they wish to live or die. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In my previous marriage, I wanted the choices to include a whole, healthy family and a good father for my children. It took me a long time to accept that I couldn't pick that choice because it didn't exist.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is very sad. And just as tragic. But the existance of past wrong in other situations never can justify the existance of wrong in the present. Wrong is still wrong, whether it has happened a thousand times before or not - whether it has happened to a thousand different people or not. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Were my remaining choices ones I was thrilled about and embraced? No! But, finally, after grieving and struggling for that loss, I left.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Does this in some way make you stronger or better than the wife? Regardless of how often you claim that you have no ill feelings for her, your words when you have mentioned her ring of disrespect. No, you haven't said vile things about her, but you have repeatedly referred to her 'weaknesses' and her inability to let her marriage go. You have stated that her offer to attempt to meet her husband's sexual needs was sad, and have referred to the offer by a non-BDSM oriented spouse to attempt to meet the needs of one with that orientation as a "perversion." These are the kinds of things that make it difficult for us to believe that you can, in anyway, understand what this woman is feeling. In an earlier post you said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The outcome of an affair is either reconciliation, permanant separation/divorce, or (the least desirable of the three) a permanantly unfufilling marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Option 1 was completely taken away from the wife of your MM. So, while she has choices, she has had what even you consider the "normal" choices of a betrayed spouse taken from her. And in another post, you acknowledge that with infidelity the betrayed spouse has had the choices taken from them - along with the stolen years.<P>In another post, you wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I meant to add that I am highly skeptical of affair statistics. I think it is very likely that the majority of affairs do not end in marriage with the OP. That would be if you included all affairs such as one-night stands, etc. But, I suspect that if you did a study of long-term affairs only, you might find that quite a few of them do end in the end of the marriage and marriage to the OP. And, it would also depend on the type of affair. Most pro-marriage counselors, for instance, agree that split-self affairs are the most difficult to recover from. I'd bet that quite a few of these do end in marriage to the OP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There are a few people here whose spouses have chosen the marriage even after affairs of 5, 6, 7 or more years. I would tend to agree that the long term affairs are the most difficult to recover from - if there was emotional involvement. But the fact is that the majority of affairs are NOT long term. And those facts are based on sampling the general population with anonymous questionnaires.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am highly suspect of how these statistics are gathered? I assume they are gathered by therapists. Of course, the majority of people don't see therapists.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And, on what do you base this assumption? I'm sure we all know people who are in second marriages of that sort - and I'm sure that we have no idea of what goes on deep inside those marriages, not being involved in them ourselves. Before you say that you know these marriages are good ones, remember that you yourself posted that no one knew your first marriage was abusive - that to the world, you had a normal home and family. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now, perhaps if one did a vast mailing to all those involved in second marriages and the respondents were all honest (highly unlikely) we might get a clearer view of things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why do you feel that the respondents would not be honest? What possible reason would the average person have for not being honest in an anonymous questionnaire? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I just don't think they are that rare as is presented (the 3% success rate statistic).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, until you can provide some solid statistical data to support your "thought" it is simply that. Granted, much of the information we have about marriages and affairs and divorces is collected in an uncontrolled and unscientific manner. The simple truth is, that is the ONLY way to get the data. There is no way to do a pure, controlled scientific study on marriage, infidelity and divorce. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that the repeated use of the low statistic is a double edged sword. On the one side, it gives hope to those who are struggling with affairs and perhaps encourages them to hang in there longer and gives recovery a greater chance. On the other hand, for those whose spouses do leave for the OP (and, again, I believe this to be much higher than usually cited), it makes them feel as though they are some of some very small and cursed minority.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What makes you think we believe this? Let me explain something to you: I have made my choices myself based on what I believe and what I feel. Statistics or no, I made my choices because I love my husband. Because of the approach that Dr. Harley has advocated in his books and on this website, I will be able to stand up proudly and say "Well, I might be in that small minority, but I know that I did everything that I could do." Because of the fact that Dr. Harley (and MANY other pro-marriage therapists) advocate working on ONESELF and fixing ONESELF, most of those of us who are in the situation of having their spouses leave are quite happy and well adjusted. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Likewise, I beleive that statistical studies by, say, Frank Pittman are inherently biased and therefore not reliable. He already has an opinion formed; he's just seeking the data to back it up. That's not good science.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you should read Pittman's book "Private Lies" - of all the therapists I have read, Frank Pittman is perhaps the LEAST biased. Pittman has been a family therapist for over 25 years and has quite a number of case studies on which he has partially based his writings. But, most of his statistics are taken from survey type studies done by others, not from his own practice. ALL scientific studies involve sample populations that are far smaller than the entire population of the world - does that make them all suspect in your view?<P>JAL, I truly believe that you intend to help here. And I am not saying that you shouldn't continue to post if you and the people you post to believe you are helping. This will most likely be the last time I respond on this thread, because it has been emotionally exhausting to me. But I felt I had to address the inconsistencies in what you are saying when compared to other things you have said in the past as well as make one last attempt to help YOU understand that we highly value the committments we have made to our spouses, and we have been cut to the bone by their infidelity - not because we are weak, not because we are forced to face something we do not want to face, but because we love our spouses and know that our marriages would work if they would turn away from the OP and just try.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I><p>[This message has been edited by terri (edited June 04, 2001).]

Yes, Miss Zorweb, I think you nailed it. But let's not talk about the boyfriend--them's fightin words.<P>Let's just testify to the truth of what you have said: My darling husband, a fairly wealthy man, able to pull a sizeable amount out of the ATM for monopoly money every weekend without a thought, as he travels the world--he fits the description you gave.<P>These are some of the things he told Miss Kitty in their correspondences: <P>"If there was truth and justice in life on this earth, Sparkles, (blech!--that's an operator comment) I would be with you right now, but I am trapped in an obligation that I cannot just shake off."<P>"You are the love of my life, I really consider you to be that."<P>"If there was one woman that I would want to be with, it would be only you. I would center my life around you."<P>"I will never have the companionship (with my wife) that I had with you, and my life will be so empty."<P>Okay--sound's like he really loves her, right? And I, Mary, am so selfish to stand in the way of true love, I should let him go, right? I really should, since he "loves" her so much.<P>One day, she writes this:<P>"Hey, Nanouschka, you haven't asked me for sex lately. What's up, did your wife join you (on your business trip) or did you become a priest?"<P>To which he said: "Oh, no, Sweetie, I am just stuck in a rut, you know...Hey, I promised my brother I would go watch football with him today, I gotta go, OK?"<P>(Then he leaves to meet Miss Pamela at some bar in St Louis, promptly at nine PM. Miss Pamela, who describes herself as having jet black hair and is leaving her kids home with her husband to be babysat as they "do" the bar together.)<P>(Oh, then there is Miss Debbee, who is a big, fat, and to my judgement, UGLY, Australian woman who probably HAS to give it away--hubby has a fetish for big girls)<P>(Then there was Miss Lisa, who looks like she is all of 17 and runs with a vampire cult. Found a picture of her, with phone number, in hubby's closet.)<P>(Found a video, entitled "Miss Oki" taken of some Japanese woman--don't know what her name is, but she's a screamer.)<P>Miss Kitty is dutifully still sending pictures of her--uh--"Miss Kitty," and describing her dreams to my husband in which they are making love in the rain. How beautiful. He is her home, her love, her everything. And guess what? He is just eatin it up, because it is feeding his hungry ego.<P>When *I*, his wife, confronted him with the things that he told Miss Kitty about her being his true love, the woman he wished to center his life around, he pleaded that it was not true. He told me that he sometimes says things that he just does not mean. (Over and over again?)<P>See, none of these lovely ladies knew about each other. And I didn't know about them, either, until I snooped.<P>See, sex--it's can be a team sport. That's why a true loving relationship is built upon other things than sex. Hard to believe, huh?<P>He won't divorce me, however, to keep playing his favorite game. And I won't divorce him either. Probably it's to my own self-destruction, ya think?<P><BR>Oh, yeah...since on this thread we have discussed sex, God, (he's an atheist, I am a Christian) intelligence quotas (he's brilliant, master's degree, 5 languages, but I am around average) here's my comment on the money thing:<P>He uses the money thing as a bargaining chip. I really don't understand his tactics--I can't play this game very well. He says that he hasn't abused and abandoned me because, like Grandma in the finest nursing home or the rottweiler in the back yard, he has funded me and kept me fed. Therefore, he can do as he pleases. Hey, I haven't really been hurt because he supports me, right? In his mind, I have come out ahead in the game because we both get what we wanted--I get all the money and comfort of being an officer's wife, and he gets to screw around.<P>Yet, if I go to Ross Dress For Less and purchase a $10 shirt, (Or God forbid, Bath and Bodyworks to buy some of that after-bath-splashy or some other concoction) he screams at me. He says that I am spoiled rotten and only using him as a mealticket. He says that I only love him for his money, therefore he has the right to cheat. <P>While I was home, while we were separated, I took a job working production line at a factory, grave-yard shift, 12 hour shift every night. I asked only for child support. I lived in a tiny apartment on the wrong side of the tracks and was only a few dollars short of having to apply for welfare. I had no washer and dryer, no kitchen table, no bed for my kid. I had two pairs of overalls and three tee-shirts (I had left all my things in his house in Japan.) <P>I told him that I didn't want his stupid money. He could blow his check every month for parties for all I cared. I told him would take food stamps long before I took his money. Again, he was furious. He screamed at me that I was living in squalor to try to prove that I didn't need him and that I would die without his money. He threatened to get custody because I was neglectful--he didn't want the kid to grow up next door to migrant workers and drug dealers. He totally rubbed it in my face about how poor I was and that I was worthless without him. He laughed at me for working in a factory. (It was all I could get.) <P>He grew up poor, in the slums. I grew up on a big farm way out in the middle of Idaho. I wanted for nothing, I was well-fed and well-clothed--not because we were rich, but because there was nothing to want. We lived off the land. We went to town about once a week for groceries, and that's about all there was in town. Nothing to covet or want.<P>Yet, he says that I am spoiled rotten and just using him as a mealticket, for social status, so that I can go to teaparties (God no! I hate them!) at the O Club. And Miss Kitty didn't. Or she said she didn't. (Miss Kitty was just satisfied with sex, and hey, so was he.)<P>I can't win with this money thing. It sucks being married to a rich guy.<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited June 04, 2001).]

Wow, JAL, look what you started here????? Take a deep breath, this won't hurt much, but I'll warn you, it might taste more like spinach instead of cheesecake...<P>In all respect, since you already know what everyone here does not agree with you on, I wanted to point out one comment you made regarding your cousin that I agree with wholeheartedly. You said, <P>"I think there are circumstances where a vow can be broken. I don't think it is the place of others to legislate or impose on others their opinion of whether or not proper consideration has taken place. We can only hope that we, as individuals, each undertake proper consideration..."<P>You're right, our individual sin is between us and God. He is our ultimate Judge.<P>What you said is directly in line with something in the Bible, and I hope you don't mind if I quote it. It says, "For the word of God is quick (alive), and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." <P>Perhaps the reason why God is so merciful and forgiving and so willing to love us when we betray Him again and again is because of the vows exchanged when someone decides to become a Christian. Because of breaking God's laws, mankind is headed toward an eternity in hell, perhaps some sins are more dignified than others, nevertheless, hell does not discriminate. In order to avoid my impending doom, I vowed to repent of my sin, to love God with all of my heart and to obey His commandments. In turn, He vows to protect us, heal us, provide for us, give us His peace and right-standing with Himself, to name just a few of His promises. <P>You see, I made these vows to God when I became a Christian, yet I have been unfaithful to Him time and again--DAILY, actually. Would it be considered unfaithfulness if your spouse was to deny the fact that they are married for any reason? Did you know that there are such things as "closet Christians?" God is probably the most "betrayed spouse" of anyone who ever posted at this website!!! He gave the most and yet He endures the most betrayal and unfaithfulness from His Blood-bought bride. Did you know that the Christian Body is referred to as the Bride of Christ? Paid for by Jesus Christ's shed blood.<P>The bible compares Christ's love to what a husband's love should be toward his wife--the kind of love that would lay down his life for her as Christ laid down His life for the Church. If those are not vows in the truest sense of the word, I don't know what are!?!? Marriage is held in high regard in God's eyes, as well as the marriage bed. Did you know that (biblically speaking), the marriage bed is considered to be "undefiled?" So what would that make an unmarried bed (regardless of the sexual orientation)?<P> But there I go shoving down my narrow beliefs again...

Sheryl and zorweb,<P>Not in real life, of course, but in a different persona - not on this board.

Bernzini,<P>Do you ever wish you could set up a "date" where all of his OW show up to meet him at the same place/time?<P>You could sit back at a corner table and just watch them all take him apart!! LOL<P>Sorry, just had to share my fantasy.<P>Z<P><BR>

It sure does prove that "sometimes" he says things he doesn't mean. I don't know whether to be happy about that or totally freaked out--that he really didn't love Miss Kitty like he said he did. But that doesn't do much for me. Actually, that's the scary part--how much of what he says could I, myself, believe? And how could he be so cruel as to tell her things like that when he "didn't mean them." The poor icky old woman turned her life upside down for him to prove her love because she believed everything he told her. (Maybe he did mean it all at the time, who knows, she made him feel good for a few minutes here and there, and some people are likely to say anything under the circumstances--but now?) Sure doesn't take him long to fall in and out of love.<P>He once told me that the reason he stayed with me because I have his only child. That qualifies me for the Gold Card Membership, I guess. I am priviledged. Lucky me.<P>I am waiting for him to someday ascende to very high levels in his job and watch the previously anonymous women come out of the woodwork for whatever reason, between you and me. Actually, I dread that day. Maybe he should quit while he is ahead and retire. I asked him once out of curiosity what he would do in that situation. He said, nonchalantly "Well, I guess I will deal with it IF it happens."<P>I guess I had better quit talking about this now--you know what I mean. But I feel justified in venting. And I really need help in dealing with it.<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited June 04, 2001).]

Berzini,<P>You are justified in venting and this is the right place for it.<P>My XH, who ran his life very much as your H does, told me that a man would always tell a woman what he has to, to get what he wants. The professions of love in most cases are just a way to score. This is how these men think. They are predators. Predators set traps and lures to get their kill.<P>And don’t feel to bad for Miss Kitty, she knows she is involved with a married man. She knows the score.<P>Although your husband treats you like dirt, you are the ONE in his life. Do not ever forget that. You are the anchor that keeps him together. That is why he has to be mean to you.. Because he is loath to admit how much he does need you. I know that does not make your situation any better.<P>My counselor chewed me out for not realizing this. She told me that while he was the King in this relationship I was the Queen. And as the Queen I have some very definite rights…. That I needed to step up regally, and take my place in my relationship. We do not need to compete with the OW (some really ugly words come to mind here but as the Queen I will not lower myself to actually say them.). They have nothing to do with us.<P>Don’t ever forget, that if your husband has all the money, it is half yours. And your children are legally and morally entitled to a slice of it too.<P>By the way, if he is an officer, when his activities become public enough to embarrass the military, he will be either kicked our or forced to retire. I know that the military turns their head to much of this type of activity. But as your husband advances, there will be people who feel they should have gotten the advance, not him. Somewhere along the line, one of these people is going to help out his behavior.<P>Why don’t you send info to all of the women to let them know of each other? Just an evil thought. I think that there is even an argument that you have a moral obligation to tell these women because they are being harmed. When we know a harm is being done, we have the moral obligation to let those being harmed know.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare