Hey J!<P>I sent you a brief e-mail, and I posted an update on the Recovery page today. I sent you a link to <I>her</I> homepage - undeniable proof that I wasn't playing about these skanks T messes with! LOL<P>Good luck to you.

J,<BR>I was reading your post to the replies. You mentioned that the only contact with OW could be through cell phone this weekend and that you'd monitor it. That will ruin your weekend and any chance for you to truly relax and enjoy the weekend as a family. Is it possible to get him to leave his cell phone at home? You could approach asking him not to bring his cell phone by saying something like "I really want this to be a great family get-away with no interruptions from the outside world. Let's not bring OUR cell phones so that we're not accessible to family, friends, etc. and just concentrate on just us and the kids and having fun and leave the outside world behind us for this weekend." This way you include both of you and it's nonconfrontational(is that a word?) and hopefully he will agree and the cell phone will become a non-issue! Just a thought. Have a great time this weekend.<P>P.S. If I find out a way that makes VELCRO not so stickable I'll be sure to pass it on to you! Just kidding! You know they're looking for protection and comfort and trying to provide you with the same. It's maddening, I know, but they have your best interest at heart. It's instinctive, they want to protect their mother, no matter how old they are.<P>You know you are always in my prayers,J.

hi J! Actually, that was my plan. I meant that next week, while we're home painting was when she could get ahold of him via cell phone, but didn't articulate that properly. I am going to ask him to leave his phone at home this weekend. We can take mine with us for emergencies, but noone even knows the number to it. I'll be sure and make sure he has no access to it while we're gone.<P>I am really motivated to Plan A my butt off this weekend and next week. I am looking at it as an opportunity given to me. <P>Oh, BTW, no response to the email yet. Only responses to the ones about little things like dinner, B's sleepover, etc. Just like we talked about yesterday.....

HG,<BR>It definitely sounds as though your H is in the fog. I echo Shizzo's posts - you cannot recover til there is complete honesty. It took a long while and 2-3 discoveries of contact for us to finally start recovery. Maybe it was a LB, but whenever I found contact, I immediately told H what I had found. He sent no contact letter, which was bogus, after 1st d. After 2nd d, I was ready to Plan B - he begged me to give it a chance; I made counseling (something he had been refusing to do) a condition. It has helped, and he is finally out of fog/wd - I would have no qualms about telling him you found the card. I had gotten to the point where I could no longer tolerate lies - maybe make a copy of the card and leave it on his pillow??? (I have copies of everything.) Yes, he will probably rant and rave - as WS's do when they have been "discovered" - but as Harley says, it is because there is still contact and they are on defensive. My H ranted, but I would not tolerate - told him he needed to make a choice, he could not have us both...<BR>maybe not exactly Plan A, but...<BR>Best wishes - so sorry you are having to go through this,but stand up for yourself...we are here for you.<P>S

Is there ANY chance that could be an old card? From some other time?.... Another Monday maybe in the past that didn't work out?<P>Just a thought...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susan:<BR><B>Is there ANY chance that could be an old card? From some other time?.... Another Monday maybe in the past that didn't work out?<P>Just a thought...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>WOW! Susan, you are so right! It might be from another time, and in that case, this would be a perfect opening line for Hurtinginil. She could put her question to him in just that way: is this something old, or something I need to worry about?<P>Now, IF he tells the truth, that's a whole other story! But, at least, if she chooses to bring it up next week, she has a very good reason to do so!<P>Hugs...<BR>Winny<BR>

Susan may be right. I think many of us get so trapped in the negative behavior we sometimes refuse to apply any benefit of the doubt. But... I'd be careful. <P>If you ask, "Is there ANY chance that could be an old card? From some other time?.... Another Monday maybe in the past that didn't work out?" I know my H would say, "err, yeah, that's it. Yeah, from another time. Err, yeah, I was just cleaning out my desk and all, and..." I wouldn't give him the suggestion. I'd make him think fast on his own.<P>I, personally, would find a way to ask about it-- but I've been overly gutsy, and very lucky.<P>To quote Dennis Miller, "That just my opinion, I could be wrong." <P>My thoughts and best wishes are with you in your struggle.<P>The Hat.<BR>

Sorry guys, but the card was dated June 5, which means she gave it to him on the 6th. Very consistent with his attitude----he was being a total [censored] when he came home from work that night......<P>The one thing that Aries and I have talked about, though, is if she cornered him at his farewell party Saturday night, he was probably drunk as a skunk by that time. Maybe he didn't even remember her asking, or didn't really think about his reply. Just a thought, and I'm sure I'll never really know.....<P>As for presenting him with the hard evidence---that's a big no can do!!! What pushed him over the edge last year at this time when he did move out for a week, was that I told him I'd found a bunch of cards in his bag. It literally was the straw that broke the camels back. Would it happen again? I don't know, but since he says he's willing to give our marriage a try, it's a risk I can't take right now.

I'm out of creative ideas myself... <P>This one strikes very close to my heart so I'm sending it back to the top for more from others. <P>

You gave me a very thoughtful reply. I was also saddened to read he still treats you with such disrespect.<P>I don't know, maybe it starts to feel "normal" after awhile. But my h, who is no angel, has hardly ever raised his voice with me and never been rude.<P>I think maybe you are waiting for your self-respect to somehow go up, then you will DO something. It worked the other way for me. My self-esteem was very low, but I decided one day I deserved honesty and a responsive husband. I TOOK ACTION, then my self-esteem took an incredible jump.<P>You may also fear that to stand up to him and tell him you WON'T allow him to treat you this way WILL AUTOMATICALLY END YOUR MARRIAGE. Is that right? We take risks when we do the right thing, but it is just a risk. He will certainly respect you more and it could instead be the beginning of something new...<P>I too believe in plan A, but when are you hiding behind that idea and really being a doormat.<P>I'm saying again, you must first value and respect yourself before others will. When my eyes were opened to my part in my life during our marriage, I realized I had treated myself far worse than he had. I had lived my life believing I was inferior to other people, to him in particular, and it's just not true!<P>So, if you ask him if he is being totally honest with you and he tells you to shut the f* up, I would calmly tell him that noone speaks to me that way, not anymore. Stay calm, but tell him honestly...<p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited June 08, 2001).]

Schizzo is sooooo right.<P>She's also right about the normalizing... sadly , I did it too, so that the cheating, the lies, the way he treated me, seemed "normal" and I believed it was what I deserved.<P>Once you're either away from the person or situation, or in therapy and dealing with it, then you can see... but not in the middle of it... <P>My priest/therapist from that last year I worked on my past-marriage used a "wall of sh*t" idea that worked well for me... there's this wall, and it's made out of... umm... well, you know... and you can punch a little hole through by taking care of you, by seeing reality, by lifting yourself in prayer/meditation/self-help/therapy (choose one or all) and you get just a tiny bit of light in... and the next time you do it (any of those things) you get a bit more light in... until you get a stream of light in. Some of us have a huge wall, and some of us have not so big a wall... yours, and mine, and so many's, is a great big wall of china wall... <P>One little poopie at a time... just one... you can do that... just one...<P>Take care of YOU!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hurtinginil:<BR><B>hi J! Actually, that was my plan. I meant that next week, while we're home painting was when she could get ahold of him via cell phone, but didn't articulate that properly. I am going to ask him to leave his phone at home this weekend. We can take mine with us for emergencies, but noone even knows the number to it. I'll be sure and make sure he has no access to it while we're gone.<P>I am really motivated to Plan A my butt off this weekend and next week. I am looking at it as an opportunity given to me. <P>Oh, BTW, no response to the email yet. Only responses to the ones about little things like dinner, B's sleepover, etc. Just like we talked about yesterday..... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>HI, Hurtinginil,<P>How was your week, and how did things work out for you? I've been checking back here from time to time hoping that you'd post an update. I've been concerned about you and have been praying that your H was civil to you and didn't up and leave, as you feared he might.<P>If you can, please let us all know how you are. God bless you...<P>Hugs,<BR>Winny

Thanks so much for asking, Winny. The weekend and week went very well. He didn't even turn on his cell phone from Saturday morning until the following Friday night. No computer, either. We did everything together that entire week. (yes, I mean everything )<P>That Friday night, he took his phone with him when he went to run an errand, and obviously, there had been messages from OW. He was back to the way he had been again. Things went downhill over the weekend again. <P>The following Monday, he started his new job---away from OW. The week was pretty good. Thursday was his birthday and Friday was our anniversary (see my other post regarding that). Saturday, the 23rd, we went out for our anniversary, and it went really, really well. I had been monitoring his cell phone for the weekend, and from Saturday early afternoon to Monday morning, there were no voice mail messages whatsoever. No calls to OW, either. Yesterday, he only checked his voice mail at 7:44 am, and didn't once at all after that---no voice mails, either. I know I'm overanalyzing everything, but that means that he hasn't heard from OW. All in all, things are going better again. I just wish he could see the direct correlation of how things are going to whether or not he's contacting her.<P>One big positive for our anniversary---he told me that he loved me again. I'm very happy about this (and made sure he knew it), but am very skeptical---every time I start to think things are headed down the right track, they go back again.<P>I'm just kind of holding on to see how things play out. I told myself that I would give it a little time once he switched jobs to see if things changed. It appears that they have, so I'm going to see what happens.....

Hurtinil:<P>H still seems to be at least partially in the fog. Doing Plan A is great, but with this caveat: total honesty means exactly that, total honesty.<P>Obviously, he is not there yet (indeed, you are not either: did you mention the card during the week?).<P>I was hesitant about the total honesty at first. I thought, wrongly, that "white lies" to protect my W were OK. They are still lies, and are easily detected (even when we delude ourselves to the contrary), and just further entrench the idea in the BS's mind that the WS is still "a liar" despite the motivation of "good intent" to protect.<P>Total honesty has worked with zorweb and I because we have made it exactly that: total. Remember, though, that the rule of honesty goes hand-in-hand with the rules of protection and caring. It is possible to be honest and not LB. Though, I do admit, both parties have to be participating in this.<P>Until your WS can grasp this concept, and the meeting of emotional needs (and expressing his to you), Plan A will not be fully effective.<P>Judging by his behavior, I think he has your Plan A figured out and is finding ways to work around it. (Though I do hope my assessment is wrong.)<P>Just my 2 cents as an xWS and someone totally committed to recovery.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

hurtinginil,<P>Hi, I just made it all the way through this thread. I really feel for your situation, but you have something very positive going, and that's the fact that your husband has taken concrete steps to get away from the OW. A change in jobs is a *big* deal, no political incorrectness intended here, but I think it's usually an even bigger deal for a guy.<P>I'd like to share an incident that happened with my W when I went to Plan B that seems to me much like you H's defensiveness. And also my thoughts on what it means. It's kind of a complicated explanation, but maybe it will help.<P>When my W was moving into her apartment, we had spent several hours talking about details, you know what she wanted to take, visiting with the kids, all that sort of thing. And the conversation had gone really well, we were laughing and even having a some kind of weird fun. Now my wife has never actually told me, in so many words, that her affair is over. She still works with the guy, and she intimates that it is over, but she's very careful about her choice of words. I have very strong beliefs that my daughter should not be exposed to this OM in any way. He's married. It's immoral, etc. So I asked my W, very calmly and in the most non-LB way possible, "<Wife's Name>, I'm really glad we could work through all of this so well today. And you know I don't want to do anything to come between you and <daughter's name>, but I really need your assurance <wife's name> that the affair isn't still going or that you aren't planning to start it again."<P>She instantly became furious. And she is not one who does that easily. She yelled at me, "That's just the kind of f***ing stuff we weren't suppose to talk about!" (I had been unaware of this - it was news to me ) Then she went into the bathroom and slammed the door, and stayed in there for at least 10 minutes.<P>Finally, she came out, walked right up to me and said, "It isn't, and I'm not planning to. Now <daughter's name> and I are leaving."<P>Sound like your husband a little? Here's what I think goes on in their heads. Essentially, when we ask them for these kinds of "decisions" "reassurances" whatever you want to call them, they get angry and defensive because they haven't done what they say they've done emotionally. Yeah, he's quit his job, but in the back of his mind, somewhere, he's still holding on to the possibility of a continuing relationship with the OW. Or in my w's case, she's still holding on to the possibility of something happening with the OM.<P>In the back of their mind they basically want to keep their options open, as in, "hey, you don't know what might come up, and I don't want to close the door on whatever it might be."<P>I don't know if this is making any sense. But, you see it doesn't really matter what *is* going on. He *is* lying. To you, to himself and to the OW. But the truth is very likely that *he* doesn't know the *truth*. Today his intention might be to be with her, tomorrow to be with you. And it makes them mad as hell when we ask them to make a gosh darn decision <P>As for snooping... I was the biggest snoop. I went through everything. I followed her. I tapped the phone. Through it all, I discovered three things: 1) I would make a really lousy private investigator, 2) 99% of the time finding "something" hardly ever changed what I should do or not do, and 3) Snooping is very stressful, and made me feel lousy.<P>So I pretty much gave it up. Oh, sometimes I'll drive by the OM house or her apartment, but not much anymore. I figure that if my W and I do get into recovery, I'll know it by the way she treats me, by the way I treat her, and I won't have to snoop.<P>Gosh, this became a lot longer than I intended. Sorry about that. I hope in my rambling I said something helpful.<P>But keep hanging in there, i think your H is showing some good signs and you have good reason to hope.<P>Take care,<P>Ish<p>[This message has been edited by Ishmael (edited June 26, 2001).]