Just did some thinking today. What exactly are the differences between falling in love and the "Fog"....<P>Well, biologically, probably nothing. Everyone goes through what we call the Fog when we fell in love with our WS. So what's the dynamic that comes into play when an affair takes place? Why do we call it the Fog instead?<P>Hmmm, my guess, and that's all it is, is that reading from Harley's articles a lot comes into play. Paraphrasing here, romantic love is an extremely powerful emotion, people lose their spouses, their homes, their children, their jobs, their self respect, dignity and the respect of those around them to experience that feeling of romantic love.<P>In a 'normal' relationship, this 'fog' isn't a problem. And as the relationship progresses, the chemicals that cause this feeling eventually 'dry up', and if the relationship is to continue, then another kind of love takes it's place. A committed, stable affection that can grow deeper (hopefully) throughout the years. This is the real glue that holds a relationship together for the long term. And it's based on trust, truth and respect (among other things).<P>However, in an affair, biology takes the reins. Both the WS and the OP are riding that chemical wave. Physical attractiveness isn't usually an issue because the affair started through an emotional connection. A connection that's surprisingly easy to make when the WS is in a vulnerable time in the relationship with the BS.<P>Once the feeling of romantic love is established, everything else goes out the window, and this is what the BS calls the 'Fog'. How could the WS give up everything? It just doesn't make sense, but romantic love is like that. The upside to all of this is that inevitably, those chemicals will 'dry up' too.<P>This is where Plan A and Plan B come into effect. When the WS starts to lose the feeling of romantic love with the OP (which can be helped along by LBing by the OP), the WS will think back and reflect on what has happened. They start to realize all the pain that they have caused, all the things that they have given up. And as [H] has said, a strong relationship cannot be built on a foundation of lies. The WS and OP had to lie to themselves, each other, and everyone else in order to be together. These lies will be exposed when romantic love starts to fade. If a solid Plan A and Plan B has been implemented by the BS, the WS will want that part of their life back. They will want to get back all those things that they gave away for the fleeting romance with the OP. If they feel that they have a safe place to go to, a happy place to go to, they will return.<P>This is why most affairs end within 6 months after being exposed. Why only 3% of people who started their relationship as an affair end up getting married and why 75% of those marriages fail.<P>If you want your WS back, have hope. Someday, the affair will end. Just be the best that you can be in the meantime.<P>Just my thoughts on the matter. Take care,<p>[This message has been edited by Redon (edited June 20, 2001).]

Well said...<BR>I vote that you go right to "member" status without the predetermined number of posts. <P>cleo

Well said <P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie

Wow, I am bowing down to you as we speak.<P>Very well put. I agree 100%.

Bingo!! that is what happened in my situation. I believe in all my heart that that is how these "relationships" are played out. It took my H some time, but as the fog cleared, I was there, stable, and most important for him, waiting. He told me that the thing he feared most,is that when he came to his senses, that I would not be there. But I was ! After all he put me through, and that I was there for him, was all the proof he needed. Nothing that lying WHORE could say could get me out of his heart after that.<p>[This message has been edited by mksgrl (edited June 20, 2001).]

This should be added this to Noteable posts..<P>Wow, very nicely put!<P>K<BR>[H]'s wife <p>[This message has been edited by Knewjie (edited June 20, 2001).]

Brilliant!<P>Two thumbs up! A high five! and a cherry Coke!<P>Cali

Very good Redon!<P>To add to your 'chemical love' statement. I recently read that compared tue love to toxic love. Hm.... so those chemicals could be toxic. Yep, they can make the harmless (innocent victims) look distorted to the WS. The OP makes sure they keep adding chemical X (more hateful stuff about the BS and family) to the potion so then it start to become an addiction. Feeding off of each others hate. YUCK!!!<P>L.<BR>

Wonderfully expressed; thank you Redon, you made my day and gave my Plan A a boost octavia99

Redon,<BR>Very well said and a good summary of Harley's principles. Hope I'm not infringing on your thread, but I have a question related to your topic and since you seem to have a good handle on the issue, let me pick your brain.<P>My H and OW broke up in the midst of their fog. They both had strong romantic feelings for each other, but a need to do the right thing (and other circumstances) ended the relationship. My H actually gave her an ultimatum (go with him and start a new life) or that was the end forever. He didn't want any more lying and secrets. She turned him down and we rebuilt our life together after we moved. Now things are great. We are best friends again and I truly think he has had no contact with her for 2 years. He is in love with me again. Now to the question... He was not out of the fog and was almost obsessed with her at the time of the end of the relationship. Therefore, the relationship did not die a natural death. I know a part of him still loves her and will always look at her and the relationship through a distorted view. Things are great now, but this still bothers me. <BR>Those of you farther along... Does this get better? Will he ever feel differently? Do I just have to live with this?

To answer your question, the following is something I found on a website (can't remember which one):<P><BR>Mature Love Versus Infatuation <BR>(Author Unknown)<P>What is the difference between infatuation and real love? Nothing at the time a person is experiencing it. The difference is the difference between falling in love and staying in love! <P><BR>INFATUATION: <P>One is totally occupied and fascinated with the individual. Every move and gesture is important. <P>The partners feel intense emotional states filled with excitement, urgency, impulsiveness, and confusion. <P>The relationship is based on very few accurate perceptions and little authentic knowledge about the person. <P>They put each other on a pedestal while belittling or putting themselves down. <P>One depends on the other for self-esteem. <P>One has more to get from the relationship than give. <P>One is jealous of the other person’s activities or interests beyond the relationship. <P>Both can’t admit to normal human weaknesses in the other. <P>They function less well than usual at school or work or home because of the relationship. <P>One is terrified by the possibility that the other person will lose interest. <P>They think only of the other person. <P>MATURE LOVE: <P>Each person is an individual apart from the other. Neither depends on the other to feel complete, worthwhile, and important, secure in self-esteem and what they bring to the relationship. <P>The two people can accept the fact that neither is perfect. They don’t try to change or blame each other for the differences between them. <P>The relationship and the partner become only a part of one’s life, not all of it. <P>The relationship remains strong in painful, difficult times as well as happy. They share fears and tears as easily as they do happiness and laughter. <P>Each person has more energy to devote to other parts of life. Their love opens them to new experiences instead of shutting them away from the rest of the world. <P>The two are close friends. Physical attraction is only one aspect. <P>Each person continues to grow as an independent person. <P>Each person gets as much joy from giving to the other as receiving. <P>Both are secure in the belief that their love is as important, meaningful, and valuable to the other partner as themselves. <P>Honesty and trust are openly shared as they respond to each other’s intimate feelings and concerns. <P>The partners feel a responsibility for each person’s well-being and act in ways that will protect and nourish them both. <P>CONCLUSION: <P>Falling in love has a high degree of risk, but understanding that there are different kinds of love can reduce the risk. Knowing that real love is more than riding off into the sunset, more than feeling tingly all over when your lover walks in, more than passionate sex, is only the beginning. But understanding the depths of mature love and its requirements may help you to build a lasting relationship that meets many needs. The rewards that come from a loving relationship are well worth it. <BR> <BR>

Thank you all for your comments, they are very much appreciated, and I'm glad that I've put a little sunshine into some people's lives.<P>God knows, we can all use it.<P>JenniJ, I don't have an answer to that. Although I would suggest that it's been 2 years, you seem to be on the right road, try to let it go. Your husband has put it behind him, he is with you now, his choice remember.... I know a lot of people would like to be in the position you are in now. Yes, your husband may have a distorted view of the OW, but he probably also associates her with all the deception, pain, and devastation that his affair caused. It's in the past, let it stay there.<P>All the best,

There has always been a very clear delineation between the Fog and love; it's been there right in front of us all along, the BS, WS, OP ... if you read this passage thinking of the opposite meaning, that is the fog; as it stands, this is love:<P>"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."<P>- 1 Corinthians 13 - <BR>

Redon,<P>Well said.<P>You brought up some statistics in your post about about how affairs turn out. I know from reading the Harley books that he states most affairs burn out on their own AFTER they are revealed, usually within six months.<P>My question is, where did he get these statistics? I know each case is individual and I am not one to rely soley on statistics. But has anyone ever done a scientific survey on how affairs end?<P>I'd be curious to know...<p>[This message has been edited by Always Hopeful (edited June 22, 2001).]

I completely agree with you however I also beleive that plan A has a specific time frame then to plan B. In my situation my wife never stopped the affair and I tried to plan A for 3 years but could not compete. I essentially wore out my welcome until plan a was even a love buster.<BR>She told me of the affair in '96 and it has not lost a bit of steam.... He has left his family and she has divorced me and nothing has changed in thier lives....

Yes the claim is that affairs die a natural death...after exposure to the light of day... but sometimes the WS still denies it is an affair...so I wonder if thats a way to put off the light of day.<P>I know my h denied... and even after a very public pregnancy and birth of a child... loss of respect etc..he will not give "it" up... and just says they are close coworkers...he "needs' her to work. (they currently do not live together...she and her H divorced but she has their two children also, but has full time help.)<P><BR>Somehow, I think these two will simply keep denying!!! and keep working together, which is why the D is going through. I figure it may as well no longer be an affair, but a relationship!!!

Tootrusting, sounds like 'Fog' talk to me. How can someone have a relationship when it is denied to everyone?<P>Some fog moves more slowly than others. Sometimes it never goes away. Some people can deny, deny, deny until the cows come home, but what kind of relationship can be built on that? Not a very good one, I would suggest.

Yes, I suppose it is fog...or he just morphed into some other being.<P>There's a lot more going on with my H also, because he is middle age and into extreme sports... and can't seem to remember that he knew how to cook...very well... and oh yeah, he eats onions now, but didn't his whole life...but DON'T try to tell him that.<P>He doesn't seem to think this whole thing is a problem for his kids... but he does now spend a lot more time with them, so that at least is good.<P>He mentioned taking kids to see a couple that WE were friends with (our kids are the same ages).. I didn't have the heart to tell him they feel very uncomfortable with him. If it is fog...it is very thick indeed.<P>

Hi Redon,<BR>Just read your post and all the replies.<P>My H started an affair in 1/00; alcohol major factor in equation--10 days after they met where she was working in a bar(where she shouldn't have been because she was on probation from dwi conviction in Tx), he and ow were in his truck/accident/speeding on wet roads/both drunk/he got dwi but later charges didn't stick because by the time the blood was drawn through chain of command, it was 6-8hours after accident. <P>I took him back and I didn't kick him out or file on adultery. I love my H. Ow didn't leave him alone; she told him to divorce me; on 3/13/00, he left, and he came back after 10 days; stayed 10 days and left again on 3/30/00. And then she filed against our STate Farm auto ins. policy and got $25,000 and Bonnie and Clyde were off...<BR>During this 18 months, he has filed and stopped d. 2x. And then in 3/01, he amended original petition. Hearing was 6/15 and, MUCH TO MY DISMAY AND DEVASTATION, the end is near.<P>I am esp. interested in your comments because I have searched my soul about this "romantic" love (f0g) vs. true love. From the day he left, abandoned our home, family, children, me, and our life together, he could only say two things: he wanted to be TRUE TO HIMSELF AND TO BE HAPPY!<P>It has been a hellish 18 months for me and my three children. In retrospect, as I have tried to comprehend how a person could forsake all that appeared IMPORTANT TO THEM AND JUST THROW IT ALL AWAY FOR WHAT? <P>Is Romantic love so extremely powerful that a person would do all of this for it? Well, let me tell you this: in the words of my H as he was questioned on the stand at the hearing last Friday: He was asked to describe his relationship with the ow: He answered, "We are romantically involved!" Yes, his very words. This does fit the pattern of an affair, the feelings of romantic involvement,the fog...an affair that just hasn't ended yet--bbecause, even though I can't understand or comprehend this, the emotional attachment is so deep and he is in oover his head--only in this case,sadly, sadly, a d. will come first and then who knows what...<P>And then, tonight, when I read your post, it hit me so hard.<BR>Over the last year, I have gradually read many books on affairs and entered this forum. I have studied alcoholism and affairs in depth. <P>I have read all the statistics about affairs. This one is in its 17th month; the d. she so badly wanted my H to go for is around the corner. (Ow has been married and d. 3x).<P>For the sake of romantic love, his mid-life crises, their desires to drink and drink/drive together and whatever else, me and my chidren's lives have been turned up side down. So, as you stated, once the romantic feelings of love are established, the hell with everybody and everything else in his life prior to that moment...My childrn are so unhappy, sad, devastated and I have them in counseling...My 16 year old son is turned upside down...all 3 of our children...2 dtrs., ages 11, 14...no nurturing from their father who has hardly seen them while he is so busy in new life.<P>I had so deeply hoped, as I am sure you can empathize, that the affair would die a natural death before a d. would happen. Well, not in this case. It will probably take him becoming her FOURTH HUSBAND, before he might see waht he has done and whom he has hurt...<P>And even then, after a marriage which I believe is on the rebound for spite, it will take a while (?) for the usefullness of this to wear off. When the annoyances finally begin to outweigh what the affair/marr. provides,<BR> then, and only then, will it disintergrate and die...<BR>(as you so aptly said, which can be helped by LBing by the Ow).<P>In my case, too sadly, a divorce and then a remarriage...<BR>Yes, the affair was founded on lies and deceit and quicksand; but, unfortunately, since the "romantic love" is so extremtly powerful, the quicksand is somewhat thicker--and it takes longer for the sinking of the "affair" to end or marriage to break up....<P>I talked to Dr. Harley on the radio and S. Harley on the phone. I put a Plan A letter; I have held off on a Plan B<BR>letter. Maybe i need to seriously consider a Plan B letter; I am trying so very hard to be strong,in light of the infidelity, the d. and the very likely marriage...<P>In fact, another interesting comment my H made while on the stand was this: He was asked if he characterized me,his wife, as hostile towards him? He replied, "No". I was shocked,and yet I wasn't. Because after the Plan A letter, I made a committment to myself and to my marriage--that when I saw him and had a chance, I would be pleasant, and say hello, and smile and look confident and happy...even though that is not true...And from the comment, it appears that, perhaps, it is working...?!?!? ONly time will tell, right? So, did he really notice that I am not angry and hostile towards him--regardless of what has happened and waht is happening--the d.,and all else. Little does he know that I am pretending... but how else do you do it?<P>If I show the anger and hostility, he will sense it and draw further away..for now, I have to act like I see absolutely no future for us as husband and wife...I do have hope...I want to much for the statistics to pan out for me and my H...but there is always the chance it won't..<P>Sorry this is so long, but I enjoyed your post and I had to respond. i liked your thoughts... Thanks for sharing.<P>My best to you. <P>elo

Hi Redon,<BR>Just read your post and all the replies.<P>My H started an affair in 1/00; alcohol major factor in equation--10 days after they met where she was working in a bar(where she shouldn't have been because she was on probation from dwi conviction in Tx), he and ow were in his truck/accident/speeding on wet roads/both drunk/he got dwi but later charges didn't stick because by the time the blood was drawn through chain of command, it was 6-8hours after accident. <P>I took him back and I didn't kick him out or file on adultery. I love my H. Ow didn't leave him alone; she told him to divorce me; on 3/13/00, he left, and he came back after 10 days; stayed 10 days and left again on 3/30/00. And then she filed against our STate Farm auto ins. policy and got $25,000 and Bonnie and Clyde were off...<BR>During this 18 months, he has filed and stopped d. 2x. And then in 3/01, he amended original petition. Hearing was 6/15 and, MUCH TO MY DISMAY AND DEVASTATION, the end is near.<P>I am esp. interested in your comments because I have searched my soul about this "romantic" love (f0g) vs. true love. From the day he left, abandoned our home, family, children, me, and our life together, he could only say two things: he wanted to be TRUE TO HIMSELF AND TO BE HAPPY!<P>It has been a hellish 18 months for me and my three children. In retrospect, as I have tried to comprehend how a person could forsake all that appeared IMPORTANT TO THEM AND JUST THROW IT ALL AWAY FOR WHAT? <P>Is Romantic love so extremely powerful that a person would do all of this for it? Well, let me tell you this: in the words of my H as he was questioned on the stand at the hearing last Friday: He was asked to describe his relationship with the ow: He answered, "We are romantically involved!" Yes, his very words. This does fit the pattern of an affair, the feelings of romantic involvement,the fog...an affair that just hasn't ended yet--bbecause, even though I can't understand or comprehend this, the emotional attachment is so deep and he is in oover his head--only in this case,sadly, sadly, a d. will come first and then who knows what...<P>And then, tonight, when I read your post, it hit me so hard.<BR>Over the last year, I have gradually read many books on affairs and entered this forum. I have studied alcoholism and affairs in depth. <P>I have read all the statistics about affairs. This one is in its 17th month; the d. she so badly wanted my H to go for is around the corner. (Ow has been married and d. 3x).<P>For the sake of romantic love, his mid-life crises, their desires to drink and drink/drive together and whatever else, me and my chidren's lives have been turned up side down. So, as you stated, once the romantic feelings of love are established, the hell with everybody and everything else in his life prior to that moment...My childrn are so unhappy, sad, devastated and I have them in counseling...My 16 year old son is turned upside down...all 3 of our children...2 dtrs., ages 11, 14...no nurturing from their father who has hardly seen them while he is so busy in new life.<P>I had so deeply hoped, as I am sure you can empathize, that the affair would die a natural death before a d. would happen. Well, not in this case. It will probably take him becoming her FOURTH HUSBAND, before he might see waht he has done and whom he has hurt...<P>And even then, after a marriage which I believe is on the rebound for spite, it will take a while (?) for the usefullness of this to wear off. When the annoyances finally begin to outweigh what the affair/marr. provides,<BR> then, and only then, will it disintergrate and die...<BR>(as you so aptly said, which can be helped by LBing by the Ow).<P>In my case, too sadly, a divorce and then a remarriage...<BR>Yes, the affair was founded on lies and deceit and quicksand; but, unfortunately, since the "romantic love" is so extremtly powerful, the quicksand is somewhat thicker--and it takes longer for the sinking of the "affair" to end or marriage to break up....<P>I talked to Dr. Harley on the radio and S. Harley on the phone. I put a Plan A letter; I have held off on a Plan B<BR>letter. Maybe i need to seriously consider a Plan B letter; I am trying so very hard to be strong,in light of the infidelity, the d. and the very likely marriage...<P>In fact, another interesting comment my H made while on the stand was this: He was asked if he characterized me,his wife, as hostile towards him? He replied, "No". I was shocked,and yet I wasn't. Because after the Plan A letter, I made a committment to myself and to my marriage--that when I saw him and had a chance, I would be pleasant, and say hello, and smile and look confident and happy...even though that is not true...And from the comment, it appears that, perhaps, it is working...?!?!? ONly time will tell, right? So, did he really notice that I am not angry and hostile towards him--regardless of what has happened and waht is happening--the d.,and all else. Little does he know that I am pretending... but how else do you do it?<P>If I show the anger and hostility, he will sense it and draw further away..for now, I have to act like I see absolutely no future for us as husband and wife...I do have hope...I want to much for the statistics to pan out for me and my H...but there is always the chance it won't..<P>Sorry this is so long, but I enjoyed your post and I had to respond. i liked your thoughts... Thanks for sharing.<P>My best to you. <P>elo