elo, I read your post. I truly understand where you are coming from. IT seems their relationship is based more on NEED than love. In fact my H just keeps saying "I want to work with OW...she is the best".. When it has been suggested to give her up...he will say "Put a knife through my heart".<P>It does appear romantic... but it is more like they are emeshed with this person (both my H and your H and their OW's)....so that no boundary exists.<P>That's truly how it seemed to me, when this thing began. My H seemed to say things that came right from OW's mouth. I know her and have heard these things before.<P>If you have not read the book "I don't want to talk about it"... it is a good book about the legasy of male depression. There is a chapter in it on the addictions men use to self medicate and he does a great job (although steve Harley does as well) of describing it.<P>I, like you, have been going through this for 18 months. My H is actually involved with the kids much more recently. I wanted to move away with them. To go back home. But he put in his own parenting plan and now has them a few days a week.<P>It is weird though, because he has no empathy regarding how they might feel about the fact that their father has an illigitimate child. Or how the rest of this town views it.<P>Unfortunately, my H is very successful at work...which is where the ow comes in. As long as work is giving him his high.... he can hide in that role I guess.<P>It amazes me that this 45 year old professional, very intelligent man has no clue how he is viewed. <P>I cannot figure it out. Is it fog? Is it self medication? Is it an underdeveloped or no conscience? Or all of the above.<P>Like you...I am nice to my H. If I EVER try to set any boundary...as in plan B...which I tried.... he gets more nasty and it is bad for the kids.<P>So now, my plan B is simply to go with the D...move out of this house and begin my own new life. <P>

Hi, tootrusting,<BR>Thanks for reply. Read and printed your posts.<BR>Yes, I agree, as long as the ws and the ow keep denying, the d. will become a reality. then, what next? I can only figure based on how much in denial my H is.<P>Oops! It is hard not to say my H. Even though I do not accept the d., I just know it is out there and it is a piece of paper--the legal d. I have tried to minimize the emotional side of the d. so that he might one day see me as as safe to come home and try to reconcile.<P>For now, I have to force myself, while on this roller coaster of I don't want a d. and there is a d., to try to find a way to make myself hold my head up high...and keep moving in the direction that will show him I am a strong person and that waht and who he left behind for that ow <BR>is worth coming back for. It won't be easy in any way because of the pain and anger and resentment. So, you have to pretend...that is waht the Harley's tell you to do...pretend,pretend, pretend, pretend that you are the happiest person and that you want this d. YOu want the space and freedom.<P>I agree with your comments about ws's comments come from ow's mouth. After my H stopped first d. hearing, she found out from his sister (whom I told); then, ow called mein the middle of the night during one of their drinking episodes, and told me my H wanted to talk to me. I hung up. Then, I didn't hear from him for 3 weeks..and when I did, he said "we are divorcing", and I said, no,you are divorcing me.<P>Then, he stopped the next hearing which was a month later.<BR>He called and told me he wanted to reconcile--but made no real effort to try. so, 9/00 to 3/01, there was no movement toward d. nor toward reconciliation...then, in March 01, amended the original petitioin of june2000. And the heariing was june 15, 2001. 18 months since the A started, 15 months since he left, and 21 years after we were married on June 7, 1980. I can say that I am in shock.<BR>It is very difficult to accept or believe. And for what--so he could be true to himself...<P>For now, I have no faith that the partnership will end and I see a marriage--her fourth--he will be her fourth husband--what an honor he will have achieved...and what devastation he will have heaped upon all of us...<P>Enough for now....thinking of you..keep in touch...elo

The difference between fog and love, is Lust. It's unfinished business that wasn't worked out in the past.

Hi, WeNeQn,<BR>So you think that Fog means "lust unsatisfied". Would you agree with my interpretation? <P>For my H, I might concur with alcohol being another factor in the equation. After the A was revealed when he and ow were in dwi accident together, both drunk, he admitted that she paid for them to go and stay at Holiday Inns. She was living with a cousin who brought her to LA from TX where she was in jail for DWI conviction. So, my H and ow had no where to go to engage in their "Lustful activities" except in a hotel room--or in his truck!<P>My H's affair began as physical and became emotional and remained physical. AFter the accident in which she was injured, she filed for a bodily injury lawsuit--she got <BR>$25,000- and Bonnie and Clyde were off...my H benefitted from his own auto ins. policy!!!<P>So, this began to crystallize the emotional and physical affair...and it hasn't ended yet...18 months from the accident, 15 months since he abandoned me and our children, and June 7 was our 21st wed. anni. D. hearing was June 15 and he hasn't looked back with remorse yet...he has no pain..alcohol and affair being the buffers and the insultation...infatuation and passion are very effective insulators for someone who has the agenda to be "true to himself" and thinks happiness comes from somewhere else than from inside themself.<P>As much as I want to hang onto the statistics that affairs die a natural death and hopes that this one will before a d, I learned otherwise. It continued right into a d. and he will, more than likely, become her FOURTH husband.<P>And IF he ever sees the light, sees his mistakes, and wants to take care of his drinking problem first, then, perhaps, <BR>he might find the road back...<P>For now, as hard as it is to admit, IF "IF" EVER BECOMES "WHEN", I believe that it will be WHEN I AM "LEAST" EXPECTING IT TO HAPPEN.<P>So what happens from here on out...the tragedy and torment of divorce seriously and deeply affects me and my three beautiful children....financially and emotionally we are in trouble...because one night his decision to drink led him to a bar where this "leech" lurked in the dark shadows of the bar...and he "DRANK TIL SHE WAS CUTE",...<P>It is impossible to say that all of this is OK and I have no problem with it all. I am frazzled, and torn, and tired, and devastated. If I cry, my children are so sad and they don't know what to say. If I don't cry, they think that I don't care... <P>I still care and I still love my H, but, of course, I don't love his actions that have led us to this point...<P>Thanks for letting me vent....any comments? <P>What is your situation? affair,etc. <P>elo

I'm not exactly sure I agree totally with the LUST not being worked out before. What it seems like to me...is FREEDOM not being worked out before.<P>Sometimes it seems like my H is stuck in the second of Erikson's stages of developement....I can't remember the name, but it is the toilet training stage....or the stage of "NO"... To get info out of my H is like asking a toddler to go to the bathroom. They hold it....ie. control.<P>My h has been so secretive about any of his activities. I didn't know where he lived, his phone numbers...and he seems to have about 5 phones.... a few cells...all private.Like I'm going to sell this important info to the Russians.<P>He sneaks doing everything and even told the kids not to tell me. What a hoot. CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL.<P>Funny thing is, he is involved with the control queen!!!!<P>But you are right, i think, it is something not worked out in their past. I told my H he should have just smoked pot like the rest of us.<P>He was so straight laced... studious...school, school, school, no fun. Luckily I didn't marry him till I was 32 and he 33...so I know I am not the one to stop him from all the "fun" he missed. <P>

Tootrusting, <BR>Your comments abour "control" are very interesting and I can say that my ws is trying to maintain "control" of parts of our life together while he is at a distance.<P>Yet, he can't control his own life now. He is a mess but can't see it. Of course, I am the fault for his messy life.<BR>I am now determined, after seeing what a mess he was in court last week at the hearing that he wanted so much so he could be "true to himself", taht I am the one pushing the buttons to control my life...He thinks I can afford to stay in this house, this sinking ship, at $1,000 per month and still pay to maintain it...He says if I leave the house, I am taking our children away from the "family residence"!Get that! And where is the father of that family? Sleeping in adultery nightly with a 2x dwi convicted ow who has been marr/div 3x. No, no, no, this is not a family residence any more since he walked premeditatively with plenty of money in his pocket to drink and party with ow and use for rent where he moved. I can't stay here with all the memorires of our life together. But, of course, if I move I am the one who is hurting our children...not him who deserted his family...The guilt is too much for him so he tries to place it on me. <P>One day, I feel very confident, he will look back and say to himself: life with my wife was good...why did I think the grass was greener? How could I let go of a smart, kind woman of integrity who loves me and our children? <P>For now, as sad as I am and as hard as it is, I will just trod through this one day at a time.

elo, Yes, control.... my H also does the same things re: the house... When I try to set any boundaries or discuss and reality... control control control. I wanted to move home which is pretty far from here. (about 600 miles)... <P>I have been a SAHM for the past 12 years... I realize that it was my choice too, but my H always had some great excuse for me not to work. And I do feel fortunate that I've been home witht he kids....<P>I also followed my H for 3 job changes...which led us here, far from family and friends. (my H does not have a good track record for sticking with anything!!!)<P>So I tried to discuss my moving with him. I was very nice about it...told him I wished him great happiness in his new life, that I would do everything in my power to make the distance work...as in visitation etc.... (mind you H walked out saying that if he saw the kids once a year it would be enough....and that they would be OK)<P>I told him I wanted to be able to work up to my education level (which I most likely will not be able to do here in this small town)...and that I'd like to be in a larger city where we (kids and I) will find many more families like "us" and where I could hopefully meet someone. (Believe me...it won't be here in this small family oriented town...or at least not for a long time)<P>He didn't hear a word I said...just became a maniac telling everyone I was taking his kids from me to punish him etc etc... Naturally everyone believes him... Boy, he is the luckiest man in the world. He is a successful surgeon, makes $$$$, his patients think he is so devoted.... He is very intelligent.... So he gets away with it. <P>I want to say...hey...look...he walked out etc. etc.<P>But what is the point. <P>LIke I said before, at least I know I am not the one who stopped him from doing the things he wanted.... <P>In the meantime, I'm selling the house anyway. And yes, again he thinks I am having the kids give up their "home"///<P>Too bad. I tell him that the kids and I need a change too. We also have our own destiny, and I am not going to allow him to define me or the kids. He can define himself!!!

Tootrusting, <BR>I like that last line: I am not going to let him define me and the kids. Let him define himself.<P>I could not have said this so succintly (accurately and appropriately). My H, sad to say, has defined himself as a person who had abandoned and deserted and neglected his family. He has chosen to live in adultery with ow who is abuser of alcohol like him. <P>From what you have told me, you have been through a lot of garbage. It never ceases to amaze me how many different stories I read about here. Control and blame is the name of their game.<P>I keep telling myself that I just don't care any more. I figure that if I say it enough, I will begin to believe myself and I won't care any more. When I care, the pain is unbearable. I have to insulate myself from the pain. What hurts so much, though, is that this is my children's father. And, at this time, I feel that they are actually better off not being around him. At times, I wish he would just leave, so I wouldn't have to even consider doing so.<P>He has no shame and comes back to our town where he lived with us for 20 years--with that woman --and my children and I have see him. I want to move because this is too traumatizing for us. I am seriously considering all my options. I am to the point that I just don't care what he says or thinks about waht I do. In my heart, I will do waht I have to so I can survive emotionally and finacially.<P>My H doesn't want to sell house; he blames me if I move out and take kids away from the house--that he deserted and doesn't appear to want to have anything to do with--except try to make me feel guilty if I move.<P>I can't afford to pay mortages on the little child support that I will receive--let alone maintain it. It is already been almost at foreclosure-when after not paying me any money after a court order, he "miracuously found $5000 to pay the eight months owed on it"--then expected me to keep up the note of $1000 each and still take care of our children with the same money...he is so out of touch with reality...he left me with our three children and he has no idea waht it cost to take care of their needs. <P>My plan is to file bankruptcy, discharge the house and let it foreclose. Taht way he can't even try to move in it (with or without the ow). He hasn't even filed his 2000 tax return---and since he left 3/00, he has to file single and he claimed 10 exemptions on his w2...So, I know he will have a large amount of tax to pay for 2000. He has legal fees coming out of his>>>> and he is sooooooo happy and being "true to himself". <P>As hurt and devastated as I am for me and my children, I just don't care what he thinks. And I doubt if he will try to see them any more than he has for the last 15 months, which hasn't been much at all. I don't see how he could face them...our 14 year old dtr. doesn't even want to see him and our 11 year old dtr. will follow suit. Our 16 year old son is going to see him as a means to an end...go eat or ask for money...<P>How can he repair the damage he has done? Well, he can send the ow packing, and then enter a detox unit...<P>Well, I know that is a change in a million,...So, he did what he thought he needed to do to be true to self and be happy...and I will do waht I need to take care of my children with less money... He left them with me and he never looked back..regardless of what a court says, he doesn't care about them or doesn't intend to help me pay for taking care of them.<P>This entire ordeal seems surreal to me. I just keep hoping that I wake up from this nightmare...<P>Thanks for this discourse...keep in touch...elo

hi elo, yes it does seem surreal. It is truly sad that they are in this state. Now that my kids know...."all" or sort of all..they at least know about the baby... I feel a weight has been lifted off of me.<P>I can really back away..and protect myself more, and even feel some compassion. They haven't realized how much they lose by not getting thehelp they need.<P>Because they can hide in their addictions... (OP's, alcohol, or in my H's case his work persona (and the oP), the all the issues are still there...and they will haunt them). <P>Like you, I just want to have my own life now. I'm not quite in financial ruin, but my H does not want to give me money I can tell you that. He writes me a check for child support with "child support--month" in the memo section of the check like I am the house keeper or something.<P>It is such a joke. I just don't let it get to me. Like I said it is his problem. <P>I'm afraid my H just lost probably the only person who believed in him.... me. Anyone else who knows him, including his family, says...this is H... He'll just always be searching, be unhappy etc. etc. THis is his destiny etc etc. <P>I think I am the only person who believed he was more than he does. I believed he was who he was. Does that make sense?<P>This is the most painful experience that I have gone through. And different than yours (since your H is drinking and his ow has problems)...my H is "socially acceptable" at least in work... so I doubt he'll hit rock bottom any time soon.

R, et al.:<P>Just read through this thread. Good job Redon, kudos!<P>Fog v. Love: The fog cannot stand the light of day; true love, on the other hand, relishes and basks in the sunlight.<P>Godspeed to all,<BR>STL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JenniJ:<BR>My H and OW broke up in the midst of their fog. They both had strong romantic feelings for each other, but a need to do the right thing (and other circumstances) ended the relationship.<BR><snip><BR>Now to the question... He was not out of the fog and was almost obsessed with her at the time of the end of the relationship. Therefore, the relationship did not die a natural death. I know a part of him still loves her and will always look at her and the relationship through a distorted view.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>JenniJ,<P>This is so similar to my own experience, I have to pose a question to you (or anyone else who would like to chime in).<P>My WS is completely obsessed with his OW. It's been over for around 4 weeks now, with absolutely no contact on her part. It turns out she has a personality disorder that allowed her to "split" and go from seeing him as all good to seeing him as all evil; she has basically turned everything off. <P>He, on the other hand, spent the first three weeks after their breakup (which he initiated) calling her and emailing her obsessively, trying to get her to contact him. Their relationship had turned very addictive, and he's having a horrible time getting beyond the need for his "fix." He admits that he doesn't even want to get back together with her, that it's more about the control over her life that he used to have and lost so suddenly. It drives him nuts.<P>His therapist suggested it's a form of "narcissistic injury", in which he was built up as the center of the OW's universe over the course of a year, and then dropped like a hot potato in the course of one day. Like a huge blow to his ego that's temporarily debilitating.<P>My question: It's a little better each day, each week, but I'm wondering how long I should expect this to go on. Does anyone have experience with this? <P>The reason I'm posting this here is that the Fog seemed to lift the first week he was cut off from her. He turned to me and emotionally engaged me for the first time in MONTHS; but now he's hunkered down inside himself again. Says that I/our relationship should have more energy and should be able to draw him out and overwhelm his feelings/obsession for her. He's frustrated that I'm not doing this for him.<P>Anyway, I've been LBing, and I'm trying to stop, but I'm frustrated, hurt and annoyed. I know I need to get back to Plan A, but it's actually harder now that it's over and he's still pining for the dysfunction. <P>But I love him, and I'll keep trying. Thanks for the opportunity to vent.<P>el<p>[This message has been edited by ellie1 (edited June 26, 2001).]

hi ellie,<BR>It is absolutly no fun to have your spouse obsessed with the OW, huh? Toward the end of the A, my H was driving by her house, driving around looking for her, all kinds of crazy behavior... He could think of nothing else and cried for her..... oh it was heartbreaking and sickening.<P>This kind of behavior/thinking lasted for about six months (including the few weeks before the breakup, and for several months after no contact started.) He moved 700 miles away from her. I think this ultimately saved our relationship because it put him away from her maniplutative behavior. (She would intentionally do things to "yank his chain" and make him jealous and make him crazy about her) He lost the obsession the more he was away from her. Although the way it ended was not the way I would like (leaving a romantic view of the relationship) it did end and I am thankful.<P>After I posted my last post the other day, my H and I talked about this last night. He admits he still somewhat looks at the relationship in a "idealized state" but he realizes with his head that he knows it would never work and that they never had to deal with the mundane chores of life. He thinks I am a much better life partner and loves me now and is "inlove". So he can look back on the relationship with a better perspective now after almost 2 years of no contact. ButI still have my questions that I posted the other day... Obsession seems to end, but do the romantic feelings ever fade?<P>I hope all this rambling helped. If not, please feel to ask more or to post back to me with more questions.<BR>God bless..

Wow, six months. Oof! At this point, that seems realistic, although I'd certainly prefer it to be different.<P>The thing about my WS is that we already live 1500 miles away from the OW. They found each other online, and it morphed into an intense phone affair lasting for over a year. They saw each other once a month for 8 or 9 months, but the last 4 months never saw each other once. Instead they talked on the phone for 2-3 hours a day, growing more addicted to their own dynamic all the while. <P>That's what he's missing so much: the fact that she made herself unfailingly available to him for so long, at all costs. She let her own life fall to pieces out there (isolated herself from friends, got fired from her job) because she thought she'd be moving out here to be with him. <P>I really appreciate your perspective on the situation, and I'm glad you guys have worked things out. I can speak from experience about the persistence of feeling, though. I've only been in love with one other person in my life, and it took several years after we ended things before the feelings completely faded. I have 7 years' distance from it now, and I haven't felt feelings of love for that person in probably a couple of years. <P>Anyway, thank you so much for your posts. This community is such a lifesaver!<P>el

I thought this was a very good thread. Time to revive it back to the top.....

Thank you, Faith. <P>You're right, this post ROCKS! <P>Lv,<BR>Jo

Worthy of a nudge back to the TOP! <P>Jo

bump again... just to be sure.... good stuff here...<P>Jo, we're keeping this ball off the ground!!! .... back over the net.... your turn - don't let it hit the bottom!

worth bumping up [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Bumpity bump!

Bump, bump, bump, bump it up!