It seems to be impossible to recover from A when there is a history of substance abuse. The odds seem to be minus zero but I would love to hear bout anyone who beat those odds.<P>

Tossedwave,<BR>I don't know if I qualify to answer your question, but here goes...<BR>My husband is an alcholic who has been in recovery for 16 years. He comes from an alcholic family and has a great deal of difficulty with some internal issues.<BR>He had an affair with an ex-girlfriend/long term friend five months ago, and we are now in a fairly solid recovery.<BR>Although he has beat his addiction, there are still many other character issues to deal with, as alcholism is in many cases a symptom rather than a cause of a deeper problem.<BR>It has only been through counseling over the last few months that my husband has discovered what his internal issues are and started to deal with them.<BR>It has made a tremendous impact on our recovery.<BR>I believe that anyone with an addiction that does the work involved to overcome that addiction has no choice but to eventually face the things that caused the problem...thereby making changes in their fundamental character.<BR>If this person has also committed adultery, the steps they take in recovery forces them to also discover what it was within themselves that caused them to stray. If they can be truthful about their reasons, they can find a way to avoid that frame of mind or sequence of events to ever allow it to happen again...thus allowing for recovery.<BR>Make no mistake, it is an uphill battle, as the addict must find an entire new state of mind.<BR>In short...recovery is possible if the addiction can be overcome.<BR>JMO<BR>-SD<P>[This message has been edited by SoDuped (edited June 27, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by SoDuped (edited June 27, 2001).]

Tossedwave,<BR>Addiction, whether it be booze, drugs or members of the opposite sex - they all have to be treated the same way.<BR>The best way is absolute abstinence.<BR>Easier said than done...yes, I know.<BR>If your spouse is willing and most of all wanting to stop then there will be a change in the way they live their life if they work the steps the way it's suggested in recovery. There are certain principals that the program suggests as a recipe for recovery that if followed provides for a beautiful, fulfulling and enriched life...substance free.<BR>I have used my program (AA) and adapted it to my addiction to this OW by replacing her for the booze when I first got sober realizing that one drink (any contact) is a slip that could kill me. Makes any desire to contact her disappear very fast. <BR>When I did it the way I just explained I also 'turned it over' to my higher power and ask every morning and thank every night for the strength and the willpower I need, and He so gratiously gives me.<BR>No, I am not a religious person in the sense of organized religion, I am a spiritual person - there is a difference. An analogy that I heard when I was only a couple of years sober I have kept with me and share with newcomers. It is...religion is for someone who doesn't want to go to hell...spirituality is for someone who has been to hell and doesn't want to go back.<BR>The best advice and only advice I can give you is that if your spouse wants to do this for themselves...GREAT! If they want to do this to stay in a marriage...that's great too. If your wondering how to find a program that applies to your situation look in the white pages of your phonebook, call them, and someone WILL come over to talk. It is completly anonomous and nonjudgemental, and there's no other love like it.<BR>-Wanting it to work

Wantint it to work,<BR>What kind of progam are you talking about? AA? I wasn't sure as I read your post.<P>I am living the hell of my ws's affair and his abuse of alcohol. <P>I am glad that Tossedwave asked this question. <P>UNTIL the addict wants any help, there is nothing a spouse can do. My ws has given up everything to do wnat he wants:<BR>only he can fix himself===if he ever thinks he needs fixing.<P>I just go through the motions daily,minute by minute, trying to survive the emotional and financial devastation that my ws had left in the path of this storm that continues to rage...<P>elo

elo,<BR>Yes you are going through a living he!! and until WS decides and admits he has a problem it will continue to be that way unless you get help too. <BR>Yes, alcohol is my addiction, and I'm in the AA program.<BR>There is also a program for spouses of alcoholics called Al-anon, and is as popular as AA...there will be a phone number in the phone book or through your local family distress center.<BR>They work on the same principals as AA and will send someone out to see you and coach you, give you suggestions and get you to some meetings. The meetings help to show us that we're not alone and that other people are going through the same living he!! that we are. It's someplace where you can go and share and not worry about being judged or condemned for what we are thinking or feeling. <BR>If you need some more information let me know and I'll give you my e-mail address and I can get more information for you through central office here. <BR>Take care of yourself.<BR>-Wanting it to Work

Soduped,<BR>Boy, you have obviously done some serious work yourself. An extremely insightful post, and exactly the issues I'm dealing with.<P>I was raised in alcoholism, went on to become a narcotic addict, and got clean 14 years ago. I suppose I have a lot in common with your H. My W is the WS though. I did learn some of the lessons of which you spoke when I gave up drugs - enough to keep from going back on drugs, or doing anything real destructive. However, I didn't learn enough, and the pain of this betrayal is pointing out to me the need to continue to come out of my shell. I'm going through a rough period right now that is reminding me of some of the "lessons" I learned growing up - like "my feelings don't count" <P>It is tough, but I know from my own experience that recovery is possible. In 1987 it didn't look like I was going to make it. I feel lucky to have my life, and to have a marriage to try to save.<BR>David

David,<BR>Congratulations on your 14 years!...That's one huge accomplishment - you have much to be proud of.<BR>There are many obstacles to be overcome when a person grows up in an addictive enviornment - it isn't an easy road.<BR>I know in my husbands case he was raised without the fundamentals that many people are given by their parents.<BR>It has caused much trouble in our marriage.<BR>When things became tough for us as a couple, my husband simply didn't have the 'tools' to deal with our problems.<BR>I didn't understand this at the time, and saw his lack of ability to work through things as a lack of caring on his part - I was deeply hurt, and no emotional needs were being met on either end as a result.<BR>It has taken his affair, and months of therapy to get us to this stage of understanding.<BR>My husband is now working very hard to understand why he is the way he is, and the therapist is helping him to discover new 'tools' he can use to deal with situations he would never have been able to manage before.<BR>As you know, it isn't easy for him, but it is working.<BR>Our communication is getting better, and our marriage is healing slowly.<BR>It sounds to me like you and your wife are at a similar point.<BR>Hang in there...and keep trying to step out of that shell - it makes all the difference in the world.<BR>All the best to you and your wife.<BR>-SD

If alcoholism was the only issue harming my marriage (even with an affair), then I think I could recover reasonably well and intact. However, themes of control, dishonesty, abuse, and sexual deviance pervaded our existence for many years, and I can no longer stay on board a sinking ship. If I am to have any chance for sustained recovery myself, I have to distance myself and sever the ties that bound and gagged me for so long.<P>Nell

Nell<BR> The alcoholism is only a small part of the problem and is the main reason the rest of the problems exist. The alcoholic has to get free of the booze get a clear head to be able to think clear befor they can see the damage and wreckage they have caused. It is a visious circle that we live in.<BR>WITW <BR>

tossedwave, thanks for asking this question, I'm also interested in the answer. <P>My H was an addict/alcoholic when I met him. It took him 8 more years, losing his son, his professional license, his job, his car, and me before he finally got sober. We reconciled about 6 mos later. He got his son back, his license back, his career back and we built a new and beautiful life together. There were several EAs and one brief PA that I know of during that time, but I never took them seriously since they seemed so much a part of his alcohol and drug addiction. I was probably fooling myself.<P>He was sober for almost 10 years, but after the first 5 or 6, he began drifting away from AA, even blaming AA for his problems because he convinced himself that in AA he was expected to be happy since he was sober. Obviously he was giving himself reasons to drink and use. He had everything he'd ever thought he wanted and he wasn't happy. Could it be it was time to deal with some of the issues that were underlying the addictive problem in the first place? <P>Then I was diagnosed with breast cancer and we were both caught up in the treatment and the fear. He turned to the OW for emotional and then physical comfort. She is 27 yrs younger than him. I don't know whether the affair started before the drinking or vice versa, but the OW, unlike me, is happy to drink and use right along with him. <P>This time feels very different than the first because of the affair. He returned to his 1st ex-wife's home when I left him a time or two prior to getting sober and snuck away to spend time with an old girlfriend. But neither felt like a real threat, though I believed he might really try to resolve things with his ex at that time.<P>Many things are the same. Blaming and raging at me, throwing away everything of importance in his life, lying, and using his family. But he now has money for a lawyer and a free place to live from his parents and spousal support from me as well as OW to comfort him and agree about what a b***h I am and how everything is my fault. <P>I have to focus on myself. Life, especially since breast cancer, is too precious to me to waste any more of it waiting for him to find sobriety again. It may never happen. He is content with things as they are, not miserable like he was the last time. <P>I think, for all of us, things would be quite different in sobriety. The OWs are even less appropriate choices than those made by people more or less in their right minds. My H won't admit to his parents that he's living with OW. He acts like he's ashamed of her (and he has good reason to be, despite telling me she's the only woman he's ever really loved). I doubt he'd choose to stay with her if he ever got sober. Obviously I have no way of knowing if he'll ever get sober or if he'd want to be with her, with me, or with someone new (being alone is out of the question for him).

Tossed wave...<BR>Wow...there's been some interesting things brought up on this thread.<BR>I'm curious to know if you find any of it useful for your situation?<BR>Please let us know how you are.<BR>Take care,<BR>SD

LetSTRY;<BR>Theres one thing that you may not realize here that I am seeing is - and understand that I am NOT judging only coming to a conclusion as an outsider- that your H is using the fact that he is back drinking and using as an excuse for his behavior and that -please don't get upset -you are enabling him to do it DON'T. Every one is responsable for there own actions and the consequences that they cause.<BR>If it is possible try to get to some Al-anon meetings in your area so you can get the strength they have to offer to help get you through this. YOU are not at fault for what your H is doing or what he has done to your marrige and if he was finding that A.A. meetings wern't helping him than he wasn't going to the right ones, or he needs to get himself a new sponsor and to do the steps again.

So duped---great to read your post. You seem very astute and understand your H and his addiction. Do you go to Alanon? It is scary to me though that after working on his addiction, your H still fell prey to an A. So glad he is in counseling and dealing with the issues that may have lead him to where he is now.<P>I know my H has many issues that need looking at but he strongly opposes talking to anyone and sharing his feelings with anyone. He must have shared some feelings with OW or else we would not be here, would we? H will not admit that alcohol causes him any problems and denies my feelings about his drinking. Alanon is helping me and giving me some real food for thought. Do I want to continue with all this hopelessness? I would jump at the chance to work things out but I do believe H is totally incapable at this point to change the things that are destroying our marriage. I also am going to Alanon to get a perspective on how the drinking person effects me and what I can let go of and what I cannot live with. I am truly doing some major soul searching. <P>Your post is again confirming for me that recovery from this A is not going to happen in this state.<P>The biggest struggle right now is that my H is actively pursuing OW on a regular basis and will not make a decision to leave. I have urged him to leave but he keeps saying he will look around for another place and never does anything. The addict is notorious for never following through to a solution.<P>Wanting it to work, it is amazing how the 12 step programs work so well with dealing with the A. All the steps apply to this situation, too. <P>Davidb---Bravo for you!!!!!---you have encouraged my heart that an addict can change and is willing to work out those changes no matter how hard. <P>You all are courgeous people and I admire your awareness of the things that harm and your willingness to work on yourselves.<P>TW