Just finished calla30's thread, and it seems to me that ever since I started coming here, this "attractive spouse" thing.<P>If this board is any indication, this "attractive spouse" need is almost exclusively the province of men. It also seems to be tied in very closely to weight. <P>My heart breaks reading the hurtful things that calla's H has said to her. I don't care how much you like a slim body, this sort of thing is uncalled for.<P>I'll tell you a secret, guys. NO ONE WANTS TO BE FAT. NO ONE CHOOSES TO BE FAT. YOUR WIVES ARE NOT FAT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO IRRITATE YOU.<P>There are many reasons why people are fat. Yes, some people overeat. Women who binge do it because they're trying to "stuff down" feelings, usually negative ones. Women who overeat often use food as a substitute for love. Some people just enjoy good food.<P>There's also growing evidence that people who are overweight lack a trigger in the brain that says "stop eating", so they really don't KNOW when they're full.<P>Some people are overweight because they don't get enough exercise for their bodies. Some people have a metabolism that's designed to store fat, and they would have to exercise for at least an hour every day in order to maintain their weight. For many people, particularly women, who may get up in the morning, make breakfast for the kids, get them off to school, get ready for work, go to work, come home, cook dinner, clean up from dinner, help the kids with their homework, bathe and tuck the kids into bed, then try to have some interaction with their spouses, sometimes this is a luxury they don't have.<P>Some people eat like horses, are couch potatoes, and still don't gain weight.<P>I myself have obsessed about my weight my entire life. I yo-yo dieted. I spent some time in a state of diet-induced anorexia. I've worked out frenetically, and I've been sedentary. I have spent my life being afraid of being fat, and you know what it got me? Old and fat. <P>Do I like being like this? No. But when I know that I gain weight on more than 1200 calories a day, that I cannot lose weight unless I get at least an hour of exercise daily, when I know that I cannot eat or live like "normal" people and it's not because I have a health problem, I really do have some decisions to make. I'm also very short, and that doesn't help. Even my sister, who used to be an aerobics instructor, told me: "It's going to be next to impossible for you to lose weight, because you can't get enough nutrition at the calorie intake you'd have to have, even if you work out.<P>My H had an EA three years ago. He did not have it because I was fat, he had it because I was finishing my master's degree and he felt neglected. I have gained about 15 pounds in the last year from the stress of dealing with terminal illness in the family. He has not said a word about it. He comes into the room every morning for his morning snuggle. We have no less sex than we ever had. My H is not a "chubby chaser", he enjoys looking at slim women in skimpy bikinis as much as the next guy. But my H has the maturity to understand that a woman is a complete package, not merely an ornament. If I lost the weight, he'd be happy. But he's not unhappy now. When I get my hair done, he tells me it looks good. He buys me jewelry for my birthday.<P>Don't tell me that a woman can't expect to be loved if she's fat. Don't hand me a line that "men are visual and that's just the way it is." Because it's a slippery slope to "My wife must always be thin" to "My wife must always look like an 18-year-old." Even Harley says that women should think about plastic surgery if "attractive spouse" is important to their husbands. I think that to advocate that a woman expose herself to the risks of surgery and anesthesia, against her will, for the sake of vanity or so that her husband can have some sort of Barbie doll, is reprehensible.<P>I would guess that among the men who complain about their wives' weight, or among the husbands of the women here who say that their wives' weight is what led to the affair, if you really dug under the surface, there were other issues involved. Perhaps the wife feels so unattractive that she is no longer interested in sex. Perhaps the wife has another emotional problem that makes her unable to be a loving participant in a marriage. Perhaps she's so involved with the kids that she no longer sees her husband. Maybe she's just tired and has nothing left to give after a day of working, cleaning, cooking and child care.<P>I think that the reason my H is not hung up on my weight is because I put him first in every part of my life, and I don't let it affect our relationship. I cook regular meals for both of us; I just eat less than he does. <P>Being overweight does not mean you can't be sexy and attractive. You can buy attractive clothes in large sizes. There is a store chain called Avenue that has GREAT clothes for larger women. They have a Web site: <A HREF="http://www.avenue.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avenue.com/</A> .<P>God invented the dimmer switch so that fat women could enjoy sex. <P>Yes, there are men for whom having a woman with a particular body type is very important. I know that K and I have been fighting this battle in these very forums for years. The same men, though, who won't buy their wives flowers for Valentine's Day because "I'm just not like that" will demand that their wives look like Barbie dolls all the time. Why should the wife have to do all the changing? I would just bet (and you guys with overweight wives, please chime in here) that if you dug a little deeper, you would find some other issue in the marriage, and if THAT issue were resolved, the weight would bother you less.

I'm a woman (Hi D&C) who's ex-H said I looked okay, but pointed out every fat woman on the street (smaller than I was, by the way) and say things like: "Yeah, she needs to exercise" or "She needs that ice cream" as she walked out of Baskin Robins... always some poor unsuspecting woman, always in front of me, always painful to hear.<P>I weighed a whopping 300 pounds at one time! I never said I was thin, and still don't see myself as thin, or anywhere near it (I've lost over 100 pounds, but still have 40 to go). <P><B>NEWSFLASH</B>: I HATED MYSELF, I HATED MY BODY, I HATED MY LIFE!!<P>D&C is right, nobody CHOOSES to be fat! I don't care what anyone says, it's motivated (I don't have stats, but I assume about 90% of the time) by one or all of the things listed here:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR><LI>Emotional deprivation (feeling unloved)<BR><LI>Control over oneself (as all eating disorders are -- i.e. He/she can't control this one area of <B>MY</B> life)<BR><LI>Fear(what will happen to me if I lose wieght? It's who I am.)</UL><P>I hate that this need is even mentioned. Hey, I like an attractive spouse as much as the next person -- nobody wants a dirty, unkempt, sleezy spouse. But c'mon... <P>D&C, I feel passionatly, can you tell? <P>I agree too that men seem to have this need more than women. I suspect it is because so many women gain weight with childbirth. Men, and some women, don't see that as "natural" because some women don't gain any wieght. The proponenets for this behavior see this as a "choice"... <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited June 29, 2001).]

I to thought my husband was doing this because I was fat. Maybe, he had the A because I was so down on myself for how I looked. I lost thirty pounds and then found out I was pregant. I had a troubled pregancy so I did not gain. After, I had the baby I lost my baby weight and more. I think that the pregancies changed by body. I do not obess with my weight any more. I eat three meals a day and that is it. I walk every day two miles. Before this happen I hated myself my body and my life. Today, I love myself. Maybe, this happen to show me that I am a good person. By the way his ow is really skinny. That bothers me because he likes thin women and she is real ugly. I now that I am no beauty queen but I hope I not that ugly. Sorry, I did not mean to down the OW. My husband was like to second or third affair and apparently she involved with another one. How does she get the men that she gets? Can any one answer that?

D&C,<P>I almost hate to respond to this thread. This discussion always turns into a mess, because women make two hugh mistakes with this issue.<P>One, they think they know what men really want.<P>Two, they don't recognize that more women are obsessed about body weight than men are.<P>I guess I'd better address these two points abit.<P>The "need for an attractive W" means what? To me and I think most men it means that their W is attractive to them. It doesn't necessarily mean thin, buxom, surgically enhanced. It means he finds his W attractive. That can mean she has good hygiene, it could mean she gets her hair done regularly, it could me she has a smile that melts his heart, it could mean he has a foot fetish and she has beautiful feet , it could mean she has such soulful eyes he almost cries when he looks into them, it could mean she is a devil in bed, it could mean she is the best Mother children could have, it could mean ...<P>Ladies, an "attractive spouse" means many things and probably the least of is that the spouse looks like a refugee from Dachau (as represented in many women's mags).<P>This brings me to point two. Calla's H has focused on weight. He could have focused on her table manners. Her inability to keep house. Her spendthrift ways. Her affair. But all of you jumped because he focus on weight. It seems so ... unfair. Yet, when studies are done and they have done many of them. Men are far more satisfied with their W's and GF weight than the W's and GF themselves. All studies show that men like women with a little "meat" on their bones. Yet, all women's magazines show painfully skinny women who only have breasts through the miracles of modern chemistry and surgery. It is the women that are forcing this image and many women buy it. Are you surprised that a few men buy it also??<P>It seems to me her H's stated need is as legit as any of the others mentioned here. Why, because her weight turns him off. But I will make a small wager here. Men don't often judge women "just" by their weight, especially if she has many other redeeming values. This is true even in the sex department. My bet is that Calla hasn't (for lack of a better word) overcome the minus of the weight with other pluses.<P>It has been my observation that women are dopes when it comes to feelings and emotional things. Men are dopes when it comes to physical things. We men can focus on almost any physical attribute and use it to overcome other negatives. That is why you have: leg men, breast men, feet men, eye men, lip men, smile men, etc. We do tend to focus on the positive when it comes to women's bodies. Not all of us, but most of us.<P>So before this thread becomes what they always do. The women claiming weight shouldn't make any differnce (as a proxy for the more general question, "an attractive spouse"). Please remember all needs are sort of dopy if you stand back and ask: do you really need this to function? I can function without affection, sex, attention, love, my W. I don't really NEED any of them. But I sure do enjoy them. I believe attractiveness is no less useless a need.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I'll wade in too... tentatively, of course <P>I do feel bad for calla---but a lot of what her husband expressed were honest. That's good. It also seems that some of the conversation was lovebusting---not good (and it never is), but understandable, given the circumstances.<P>I'm pretty much in complete agreement with what Dazed has said: there are lots of reasons for being overweight. Not all of these have easy solutions. And I'd argue along with her that there are few affairs that happen solely because their spouse didn't meet their need for "attractiveness".<P>However, let me take (my usual) issues with D&C's "misunderstanding" with the Harley position:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Even Harley says that women should think about plastic surgery if "attractive spouse" is important to their husbands. I think that to advocate that a woman expose herself to the risks of surgery and anesthesia, against her will, for the sake of vanity or so that her husband can have some sort of Barbie doll, is reprehensible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Harley does say that plastic surgery is an option to deal with the attractive spouse issue. But nowhere does he state that it should <B>ever</B> be forced on a spouse, against their will. These "options" are part of the brainstorming process of negotiation to solve a marital issue, and the Policy of Joint Agreement clearly states that no measure is to ever be taken unless the spouses are in complete, enthusiastic agreement. Harley considers the POJA the most important "rule" in all of the MB philosophy---so it's clear that he too would feel that:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>a spouse who would expose themselves to the risks of surgery and anesthesia, against their will, for the sake of vanity is reprehensible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But that's not what he advocates.<P>He advocates that you do your best to meet your spouse's emotional needs, in the way that they want them met, under the guidelines of the POJA. It may be attractiveness. It might be flowers on Valentine's day. It may be conversation, or money, or admiration... These are all legitimate needs, and they shouldn't be dismissed just because you don't have them, or that you think they're outlandish. <P>As a PS: Dazed, you be pleased (perhaps) to know that we and other pharmaceutical houses are spending millions (hundreds of them) in R&D to try to crack some of the issues around obesity. I think that it will become a very managable problem (if you're willing to take drugs to deal with it) within the next 15 years.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited June 29, 2001).]

well one of the big reasons my h is having an affair is because of this whole attractiveness bs. his main reason for staying with the ow is because he's extremely attracted to her and doesn't think he'll ever feel that way about me. get this, his biggest qualm is that i don't have a nice mid-section (flat stomach). um, with 2 kids it's not going to be a six pack but it sure isn't a beer gut either. talk about shallow.

JL and K,<P>Like you guys tons (pun, of course!), love your words... but let me ask you this: have you ever been obese? I mean, FAT? Do you have any idea what even a periphery comment that even slightly ALLUDES to weight does to a person who is fat? <P>Let's face it boys, it isn't *usually* women complaining about fat men, unless, like TS, it's in the way of sex, for example. <P>I get involved with these discussion because I KNOW what it feels like to be fat and to be judged for that -- verbally, outwardly, or not. How many times I entered a clothing store to buy for my daughters and have a salesclerk look me up and down ~~I didn't "belong" there, and was even told so on several occasions. Rude? Yeah. How much more does it hurt when it's your H telling you that you don't belong?<P>I'm sorry, but this just makes my blood boil. <P>I'm NOT mad at you, understand that... but I am angry at the feelings surrounding it. I spent YEARS trying to live up to my model-gorgeous (then)H. He was still gorgeous when he gained some weight, when he lost some hair, when he went grey... yet, he could not accept me for what I became. No, he didn't say it outright, but he LIVED it with his comments and remarks about other women. He knows it too, and feels bad about it NOW. So, see, he does understand the "weight" his words carried. Sad, isn't it?<P><whew!> It makes me mad.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited June 29, 2001).]

Okay, I too read Callas postings and had to keep from replying. The simple fact is Call's H was honest...painfuly so to Calla however, keeping silent about it for so long has also been painful and destructive to their marriage. Ya know, many men could look at a women's need for financial security as being nothing more than a paycheck to their wives. I don't necessarily agree with or understand not seeing past weight issues, however many men don't quite understand our needs for flowers, romance or financial security. Our needs as women are not wrong. Their needs as men are not wrong. Why is it that we want them to understand everything that seems so rational and obvious to us, yet when we don't want to hear what the HONESTLY have to say or feel, it is just plain insulting, irrational and/or rude? Callas husband stated honest, emotional needs...if we want honesty in our marriages and we want our husbands to talk, we must respect what they have to say and need. Frankly, I question Calla's stand in the marriage. I read all that her H is not doing correctly, and read alot of blaming her H for the affair and not taking responsibilty for her own actions, she mentions his EA, his withdrawing from her that caused the affair, yet she still works and exposed to daily the OM and is obviously not joining her H at the gym each day, a great time to spend together, be his playmate, talk and share in an important need of the spouse. She also responds negatively to his NOT asking questions...Harley recommends not LBing, her H is not and may be waiting for HER to address some important issues. Picking the weight issue and not validating her H's honest need is, inmho, unfair and blaming the betrayed for the actions of the betrayer.

Don't know if this is a good idea, but being a fat woman (have lost about 30 but have about 50 to go) married to a good-looking, naturally trim man who cheated on me with a thin, much younger woman gives me some perspective.<P>He did not cheat on me because I am heavy. I have been heavy for more than half of our 20+ year marriage. He loved me for years, although he would not have complained if I shaped up much earlier. I, on the other hand, talked myself into being defensive about my weight, grew more and more skeptical about his sexual advances towards me (how could he get so much better looking and still want flabby old me?) and we both hit all the mid-life things that affect nearly everyone. There were SO many reasons he screwed up. His behavior hurt our marriage.<P>But in honesty, so did my gradual excessive weight-gain. He knew he was being destructive when he cheated. I knew every day that I consumed more calories than I burned that I was being destructive. And then there are all the other things we manage to do to each other through the course of living under the same roof for years that pave the way for love to be replaced with indifference or malice.<P>We are lucky. I am lucky. He screwed up and has done everything right to make our marriage work. And I have started to examine my role in the (temporary) disintegration of our relationship. <P>Weight is a hard issue. So is sexual attraction to people to whom you are not married. If my husband does not support me, it will be very difficult to lose the remaining pounds. If I don't support him, he could spend the rest of our days together sinking into a morass of guilt and other negative emotions. He doesn't do me any good that way. We all have work to do - on ourselves and for each other. That is what the point of going through all of this is, after all.<P>[This message has been edited by MoreRoomInABrokenHeart (edited June 29, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by MoreRoomInABrokenHeart (edited June 29, 2001).]

All:<P>I will reiterate what I stated in Calla's thread.<P>It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of this issue, it doesn't matter, even, what she thinks of the issue. Her H expressed a major emotional need. If we are all to implement the MB philosophy, meeting that need should be her top goal.<P>If his top need were recreational companionship, she should work on that ... remember, in meeting ENs it is our spouse's ENs we are meeting, not our own. Conversely, her husband should be meeting hers.<P>As to the whole issue of weight/looks: I won't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Not even if I were locked up on WAT's Mothership.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<P>

STL,<P>Ah... but **I** will argue that it SHOULDN'T BE an EMOTIONAL NEED. <P>I just happen to believe that this falls under the catagory of "wants" not "needs" and this is why I argue the point. Or maybe I just like to argue Stranger things have happened.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Nyneve,<P>And one could argue that overeating is a "want", not and "emotional need". Remember, Fat Woman writing this. We need to be careful not to make excuses for one's attitudes and disparage another's.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MoreRoomInABrokenHeart:<BR><B>Nyneve,<P>And one could argue that overeating is a "want", not and "emotional need". Remember, Fat Woman writing this. We need to be careful not to make excuses for one's attitudes and disparage another's. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You make a valid point about the overeating being a want... except that you and I both know (as women who have been fat) that excess weight is about much more than eating too much.<P>I try never to disparage... I desire peace and harmony, believe me... and this is one woman who has weighed 300 pounds before... so I understand weight issues quite well myself.<P>I have been here nearly two years and I always write on these kinds of threads... <P>I do not believe that "an attractive spouse" is a true need. I say that with NO MALICE whatsoever.<P><BR>

N:<P>That argument you will have to take up with the Harley's ... it is listed as an EN (indeed the books SSA and HNHN specify that there may be other ENs not listed in the books).<P>The crux of the matter is that it is a now-stated EN of the H: the MB philosophy states we meet our spouse's ENs. Period. The rest of it is moot intellectual discussion.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

STL,<P>Point taken. <P>But wasn't the point of this thread to discuss this need? I thought so.<P>Sorry if I offended anyone. Never my intention.

No malice inferred, Ny. Now, after all this, I'm off to my steamed veggies and giant glass of water!

N:<P>Not offended, just trying to focus in on the underlying important issue. Now I will be the first to agree that these topics have a LOT to do with self-esteem issues.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Affection<BR>Sexual Fulfillment<BR>Conversation<BR>Recreational Companionship<BR>Honesty and Openness<BR>Physical Attractiveness<BR>Financial Support<BR>Domestic Support<BR>Family Commitment<BR>Admiration<P>So, let's see, if one of these is not important to me, I am free to denigrate it and consider those to whom it is important primative.<P>Well, financial support is unimportant to me. Basically, it represents a woman's desire to use a man for the money he produces, so I am free to disregard it, right?<P>Right now, despite my best efforts, I am unemployed. Financial support is possibly #1 for my W, but since I am offended by this I'll just pretend it should go away, right? I don't even know how to express how frustrated by this I am. I guess that I should therefore just comment on the shallowness of a woman using a man for money and say that this is therefore a non-legitimate emotional need.<P>I could also jump off a cliff and comment on the mundane and ridiculous nature of the law of gravity on my way down, but that would not negate the effects of gravity.<P>Let's take, for instance, a man who is not good at conversation or expressing feelings (re "openness and honesty"). I've seen many threads about clueless men in the EN forum. My supposition is that most of the women posting in these threads would be thrilled if their H's just made a real effort and made some progress. The same is probably true re the attractive spouse need and spousal weight. Few of us are perfect (if you are, let me know your secret!), but some effort to let your spouse know that what's important to them is important to you because you care about them will go a long way.<P>For those who want to belittle their spouse's ENs, let me know when, on your fourth or fifth or later marriage, you find someone who agrees totally with you. Remember, they are not your ENs, they are your spouse's ENs.<P>I will say that the Harleys seem to take the attitude that if your spouse fell in love with you once, it's probably because you had what it took to effectively meet their ENs. So, if you've never been super thin, that's probably not the #1 thing with your spouse. Trying to meet the same ENs that caused your spouse to fall in love with you, perhaps even better with the benefit of better knowledge, is what we aim for.<P>Total focus on any one need or "objectifying" women is not good. I wouldn't recommend anyone submit to cosmetic surgery that they didn't feel good about. OTOH, belittling another person's ENs can be close to abusive IMO. For instance, I have a need to be treated considerately, and my wife tends to belittle this and think that I am overly sensitive. Why is this more important than another person's emotions, who has a "less acceptable EN"? If I were a woman, and posted that, I bet I would get 100% support. OTOH, some guy who posts about his wife's obesity or lack of sexual desire may get criticized.<P>I have only skimmed call30's thread. My impression, though is that the weight thing is only part of the total picture. But it is one part of the picture. The willingness to <B>exercise care</B> for your partner, whether in trying to be more attractive for them, or in not criticizing them for lack of pecfection, is very important. If you can do that, while remaining honest about your feelings, you have a great start on strengthening your marriage. It's important to express one's needs, without belittling one's partner.<P>I would like my wife to lose weight, as I have, but there are other factors which are probably even more important in my attraction (or lack thereof) to her. Like JL mentioned, she spent much of our marriage obsessing about her weight, and being angry at me (I seldom mentioned her weight) because she was heavier than she would like. I was totally stunned when she announced several months back that she would like to lose weight <B>for me</B>. She has only lost a little, and I would love to see more success. However, the fact that she wanted to lose, at least partially for me, goes a long way. If only she'd show such consideration in other areas!<P>Anyway, it seems to me that reasonable ENs, when the person does not lose sight of their partner's needs and fallibility, should be respected.<P>My 2...10...20, no I'm up to 37 cents worth.<P><BR>Steve <BR><p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited June 30, 2001).]

StillHers:<P>Bravo ... clap. clap. clap. Well stated. I particularly liked the gravity analogy.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Steve,<P>You know how much I respect you, and always have. <P>It is NEVER my intention to belittle someone's emotional need. Refusing to take a particular need seriously being tantamount to abuse? I'm not sure I agree, but I can agree to disagree on that one.<P>See, I guess I just happen to take issue with certain of the EN's that Harley has listed; including, I might add the financial support need. Of course we all need to be financially supported, as we all would like our spouse to be clean and nice looking. I think that the "personality" type EN's are the ones that matter. But that's just me. And I was married to 20 years to a man I accepted in every way except one: his cheating ways. <P>I've turned into a one-women figher (alone, for the most part, I might add) against this whole idea of "attractive spouse" being a need. <P><B>Steve</B>, you will be horrified to know (and possibly angry too) that I am sick about the idea that your W is losing weight <B>for you</B>. But, since you consider it a need, I can see where you'd be happy. Let me tell you, as someone who has been very fat, that losing for <B>someone else</B> is gonna cause some major problems -- resentment, at the very least -- and GOD FORBID she gain it back! She needs to lose it <B>FOR HER</B>, not for you.<P>You and <B>STL</B> obviously agree, and support each other, and that is great. You are both here, on FIRST MARRIAGES. I am not. I am in my second marriage. So, maybe that makes me unable to grasp the concepts. (Is that what you meant, Steve?)<P>I will not answer any more posts on this thread.<P>I am sorry for the pain my words have obviously caused some people. <P> <p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited June 30, 2001).]