I should not read SadnLonely's stuff. It makes me crazy and doubt myself and my memories...well maybe not my memories...<P>What if H is not having revisionist history? What if he really did feel that he shouldn't be marrying me, but did anyway?<P>Yeah, I love him and want to stay married. I believe in the MB principals...but what if he comes back out of duty and obligation, much like SnL, and only pays lip service to recovery...If he wants to stay miserable he will and so will we...<P>I have dealt for two days with middle son's anger and rages. He is only 5, but is cursing and hitting and being so hateful...I just don't know how to deal with him...what to say...how to get him to talk...<P>I'm already so tired. I didn't have children to be a single mom...I don't want to stay married just to be married and not be a single mom...<P>I'm trying to clean...keep kids from killing each other...it's hot...I'm worried about using the A/C because you know California's situation with electricity...will I be able to pay the bill?<P>So much to think about...so much out of my control...<P>The big yawn of summer stretches onward.<P>Diva<P><BR>

Diva:<P>If you've got a REALLY long extension cord, you can plug in here for A/C.<P>Beyond that: chin up, girl ... do not doubt your course; you may have faltered in the LB category a few times, but you have conducted yourself admirably throughout this trying ordeal.<P>As for kids ... poor guy: he is just reacting in the only way he knows how. And if he has seen his father/you carry on in that type of way, he will express it in like fashion (a huge reason not to do that type of thing in front of the kids).<P>Perhaps the Advil approach (take two and keep away from children)? Know it isn't realistic, but makes for a fleeting fantasy.<P>Prayers for you and your family,<BR>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Diva,<P>I think your "quazi"- buying into his revisionist history is normal. I did it. And I keep doing it from time to time. I never thought I'd be using old love letters to convince myself I didn't imagine the whole thing, but I do. Our Ss can be very persuasive.<P>And you are right. You didn't sign up for this. In fact, you signed up specifically to avoid this. That's what marriage is. So, you have a right to feel abused.<P>The lost feelings do ease up. You won't feel so helpless forever, it will pass and you will find your way through.<P>I don't know what to tell you about you son, but if he feels comfortable enough to let his anger out around you, I'd say that means he trusts that you are not going to abandon him and that's a good thing. At the same time, I wouldn't let him "get away" with things you wouldn't normally. He still needs to see you as his mom, not as a punching bag.<P>Take care, and have hope.<P>Ish

{{{{{{{{Diva}}}}}}}}<P>You have of course told the child that you know how they feel....Mine did that when my ex and I broke up and my middle child...my daughter is still throwing some whapper tantrums I hear....<P>have you tried to just wrap the childin your arms and let them know that you understand how they are feeling. That has worked for me once or twice...yes, they fight you for a few minutes, but I usually tell them I am not going to let go until they hug me back and we know that we love each other.<P>turn that AC on girl....I heard on the radio that you guys have cut your energy consumption by over 10% lately...<P>Take the advil and get everyone some ice cream and kick back a few minutes.<P>DOn't think those fatalistic thoughts and don't worry if you do have to raise some kids on your own...they are yours and they are miracles, even if they are a pain once in a while.<P>We are here for you. Don't give up!<BR>FB

Hi Diva. Having a down day? I have those SAME thoughts, you know what keeps me going?? <P>1. I don't read sadnlonely's posts anymore. It depresses me as well. It is tempting, but I don't do it.<BR>2. I realize THIS is WHY you don't LET your H come back "just for the kids" or something similar. It has to be because he WANTS you and WANTS to make it work, not out of guilt or obligation. My H tried this once (stayed just for the kids), it lasted 3 weeks, the whole time he was in the same fog he was in before that, only now he was suffering from withdrawal as well. <P>Our stories are very different from sadnlonely's and you should not compare the two, Diva. Your H IS rewriting history, don't doubt that, you know the truth - you lived it. Same with me, I struggle with that all the time. <P>As for the kids, just know I am thinking of you. OD (6) still has nightmares. She dreams about OW calling my H and calling out to him to leave his family and be with OW. She dreams of fighting and yelling with OW. For a while she was very mean and hurtful to her younger sister (2). It is still very difficult. My 2-year old cries out at night for her dad alot and is always talking about him, wanting to know where he is. <P>Can you get them in counseling? I am still trying, no luck yet. These clinics are just packed full out here, can't get an appointment out here on the East Coast to save your life.<P>Other than that, just talking with him, give him lots of things to look forward to (today we will have ice cream, tomorrow we're going to see fireworks). Talk about your future alot and things you are planning on doing.

Diva,<P>My husband used the "I never wanted or never should have married you" line, and I've actually thought that my marriage to him might have been a mistake on my part.<P>Here's the reality that I've come to accept - It doesn't matter if it was right or wrong for us to get married. The fact is that we did, and as such, we made promises to each other and to God. I'm not willing to break those promises. I have a duty and responsibility to God and him to keep them.<P>I wouldn't worry too much about him coming back out of duty - that actually might be a good place to start. You will be able to rebuild the love. I believe I'll be able to do that when/if my husband is ready. My emotions change from moment to moment, and sometimes I have NO IDEA if I feel love for my husband. But I think love is based more on our actions than our feelings. (Read I Cor. 13)<P>Just remember - just because he wants to stay miserable doesn't mean you have to. Work on your own recovery and you children's recovery - you will need to do that whether he evers returns to the family or not. <P>I worked as a social worker in the past and dealt with a lot of very angry children your son's age. The best thing you can do for him is be firm (no expressing anger by hitting, etc) and helping him to find positive ways to vent. (Like play, etc.) If you think that he needs more help, maybe a play group or play therapy would help. You might want to try contacting your local Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children chapter. (Not just for abused kids - they often have resources for all kinds of family problems). Good luck - may the grace of God be with you.<P>- WLE

Thanks all,<P>I'm off to have a nice long soak...youngest son is napping. I will hope that older two boys don't kill each other while I am bathing...but am going to lock the door and breathe for a while.<P>They are fed and watching the boob tube...I hope it keeps their interest for a while.<P>Freddie B--yep, I wrap myself around him and let him struggle and struggle and wail until he calms down...and I reassure him all the time that I LOVE HIM...I don't like how he is behaving, but I love him.<P>I also tell him over and over that he does not get to treat us that way that it is wrong...He gets time outs, sent to his room and privileges taken away...and occasionally, when he does something really outrageous, he gets a few whacks on his butt. (I am not an advocate of spanking, but drastic actions sometimes call for drastic measures.)<P>MIL is a social worker, I will ask her for some referrals...As for counseling we were in it, but I was not happy with therapist...I am looking for another so we can do 'family' counseling with the boys.<P>Thanks all,<P>Diva<P>------------------<BR><P><I> Let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. </I> <B> Galatians 6:9 </B>

Diva,<P>I hope that my advice works helps as much as yours. My niece who is two is going through a lot (her father broke 12 of her bones @2mo). I see her rage and anger. I have read that this is the way a child reacts to changes and hurt feelings that they are not sure to cope with. Here some advice that I once read- Let your son take a ton of paper and rip it to shreds. This helps him to release his anger in a positive way. Tell him it is ok to be upset-and explain that you are not always happy either. Take time to do some things for yourself-when my H. and I seperate all three times(amazing) my son benefited if I was happy. It's hard to always be the happy one-so do things(anything) that makes you happy. I wish you all the best and I will keep all of you in my prayers.

Dear Diva,<P>You are playing the eternally boring and stressful, what if game. Stop it. You are setting yourself up for stress that you don't need and you will lose that game. It is only meant for those versed in fogese. The MB version is not scheduled for release until all the bugs (moose worms can be removed). Ok all you programmers start working. You all could make a lot of moola if you can figure out how to deprogram a WS and remove the moose worms. Or is that brain surgeons? I get them mixed up all the time .<P>As far as your son. That is a major point of concern. As a parent, I know you are concerned but so should your H. Can your H help you deal with this? Sometimes healing works by working and helping others. Might make your H think about his priorities. Seeing how his self centered life choices are psycologically affecting his family. This is just one child's reaction. Not to worry you more but what about the reactions you can not easily see from your son or the other children? I want to send you a major <<<<<HUG>>>>>> for you and your children. <BR> <P>I understand your 'fatalistic' thoughts. I have them to and feel for you since you have so many more to worry about. Don't carry the burden alone, my dear. Tell your H, that you need to share this with him. Don't be afraid if he is scared also. That may help him come back to reality. Your kids are more important than H's personal problems. <P>Dealing with real issues is helping my H be more of a reasonable man. You know you post is actually helping me calm down a bit. These dam raging hormones are making me think crazy stuff. It goes against that logical brain of mine. I feel like getting near meltdown sometimes. Oops, that's a nuclear energy plant stuff (WAT?!?!?). Boy, am I losing it today . Just kidding. <P>As for the AC issue, how about putting on the sprinkler? That's what we are doing up here in the Bay Area. It might hit 110 today. Ok, so we are a bit wimpy. I like it in the 80's.<P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited July 03, 2001).]

Yikes cali, heck my thoughts depress me as well, sorry to make matters sadder for you. Unfortuneately it isn't all fog, (I wish it were that simple). I am convinced beyond any reasonable doubt, that you cannot "make" people love each other (in the passionate intimate sense). But I am also not completely comfortable with how one assesses this. And I am also now certain relationships are not all black or white (good or bad), but many shades of gray, and that we each choose/need at least a certain shade, and that differs for us all. It is sad, traumatic, and troubling when 2 people marry with different needs/expectations of that gray. This is what I am trying to understand, and it is very very hard. <P>I cringe everytime someone (here, or elsewhere)says just do it....How HOW do I just "do" it, where is the switch in my brain I just throw and everything is ok? I have had this conversation with my wife (many times), just love me Joseph, why don't you love me, it is the most awful feeling in the world when she asks this, all I can say is I don't know (but I am coming to some understandings of this). She says just do it (act like it) and it will come, that she will change (the things she has to work on). I say I can do that, fake it, I know the drill, and I ask her if she wants that...... she says yes, then she says no, then she says yes.....it is heartrending, and I just want to leave and spare her anymore uncertainty. She says the same, just go, is killing her, but I know she does not mean it, so I stay and keep on working, and making her miserable at the same time. <P>This makes me feel like emotional property (and is why your husband is probably so angry, it is an awful feeling, but I am older, and far more introspective than your H, so I am not angry, only lost). This is why I asked about wanting your spouse at any cost. Most will say no, they want us to stay, but only cause we want it too.....and therein lies the tradgedy, how do we "make" ourselves feel anything, feelings don't work that way.....but marriage demands both parts of us....our minds (cognitive choices) and our hearts, driven by uncontrollable feelings. I too would not want a dutiful, sacrificial marriage, I want a spouse who is crazy about me. We all know instinctively that is important, it is not about accomodation, comfort, mature love, it is about passion. Eventually I guess we all give up on the search, and somewhere in the middle between duty, and passion, lies a caring kind of love, one can settle for that, my wife has asked me to consider this.....would you settle for that with your H Marsha?<P>In my 28 years with Terry I never thought I would be in this place, was prepared to just tough it out, had made peace with the fact I would be married but emotionally alone rest of my life. Make my life with work, and kids, and grandkids, and some kind of civil arrangement with my Wife, always some kind of hope it would get better some day (the incurable optimist in me). I had your H anger the first 10 years of marriage, but I hated feeling that way, and I gave it up to God one day, that was better, but still lonely. I don't know why after all this time (and after the hundreds of women I had met in life), the ow and I crossed paths, something was very much different, and I was no longer lonely. Now I don't know what is going on, is it as simple as MB says, LB, EN, protection, blah blah blah, just reprogram Joseph, and all will be well. Is no longer about A, or ow, is about me, knowing now how it is supposed to be (something I only knew second hand before), and knowing if I am to be alone, better really alone, than married and alone. Would I have been vulnerable had we done MB stuff earlier in marriage? I don't know, but makes no difference, is where we (ws) are now that is the reality.<P>When I am not guilt-ridden, I am mostly scared, I suspect your H is too. Is a terrible thing to contemplate, spending a lifetime with someone you care about, don't want to hurt, but feeling you cannot love them, and knowing that will hurt them most of all. I part company with your H though at this stage of life, I would not leave my young children, and would have accepted your offer of reconcillation, he should be back soon in my estimation, he is just sooooooo scared, and it comes out as anger (is my guess). Be a safe place cali, follow the MB stuff like your life depended on it, if it is to be, it will be. If that does not work you H has something profoundly wrong with him, and maybe you are better off. Whether you can build a permanent marriage remains to be seen, but seems to be enuf there to raise kids, and the standards for leaveing (IMO) are much much higher when raising children.<P>cali... Yeah, I love him and want to stay married. I believe in the MB principals...but what if he comes back out of duty and obligation, much like SnL, and only pays lip service to recovery...If he wants to stay miserable he will and so will we...<P>snl....This is tricky cali. Some may be deceptive and pay lip service, I won't, not in my make-up, hard to believe but I am scrupulously honest, especially emotionally. Hopefully your H is also honest, and is why he felt he must go for now. The trick here (and I keep hammering on this, my has a hard time too), is let us be, lets us talk, don't tell us we are wrong, listen, and participate intelligently, we are trying to find the way out of the train wreck, but we will not accept it can only be one outcome. When we are guilted, or coerced, we will wobble, and be deceptive, mostly to avoid conflict, and your angst. My wife read the stuff I posted last night, (cause I can barely talk to her about it, so I talk to you guys), and came to my room (we sleep seperate rooms) and was terribly upset again, was gonna go out and drive around in middle of night, her way of coping sometimes, wouldn't tell me why, but I knew. I asked her if she was reading my stuff again, she said yes, I have asked her not too, cause she can't deal with it, but she does anyways, so I may just stop talking alltogether with anyone. Her responses make me feel trapped, unimportant, and hopeless (only her angst counts). Keep that in mind when you deal with your husband. It is not about aliens, moose worms, or fog, it is about real life, and trying to cope, understand oneself. It does no good at all to be dismissive to us. Sorry I make you crazy, I understand perfectly, but there is a path through all this stuff, it may not lead to where we (any of us) want to go, but it is there, and can be understood.....well, I hope it can anyways, if communications are kept open. Your H will not choose to stay miserable (or if does, than is mentally ill, I guess)....it may just look that way, but if you view him that way, that is what you will see. I almost wish I was a BS, the choices seem so much more clearcut, the moral high ground, lots of support....btw, I only come here, I do not go to ws support sites. In my foggy thinking, my choices have to pass the harshest tests first, so I do appreciate the feedback, and I will comment on your religious arguments later. Hopefully though making you crazy, my postings contribute something to the overall understanding of this stuff for some here. <P>

~LibbyDoe likes freddy's post~<P>Hey there Diva!<P>Summer suggestions: go places with free air conditioning, like the library. I'm not too familiar with all the museums around here, but it's a good time to find out. I keep taking cold showers.<P>I'm really sorry about poor little middle child. I talked to the hubby last night about the anger issues & he said that he wouldn't mind picking up a child now and again if it would help. I'd love to tell you I'd take all three, but I'm still slightly sane. I'm not sure if letting the rebellious one hang out with us would encourage him or keep him from getting too bad, lol, I really don't know.<P>Remember that no matter how G rewrites it, there is still time for the happy ending.<P>