Hi Thinker:<P>I've been away from the board for a couple of days and<BR>I didn't realize until last night that SNL's wife was also on the board...and I feel so sorry for you...most of our WS would be too guilt-ridden to come here and openly make a declaration of their adulterous intentions knowing the pain that this would cause their mates. I know mine would never do this...not just for his own sake....not if it meant it would cause me pain. But SNL has no problem with this....he is so wrapped up in finding validation for forsaking his wife for what he believes will be life-long passion in the arms of OW. Oh, he makes a pretext of trying to make one last ditch effort to work on his marriage, but there is little evidence of his doing so. <P>Well, having read (endlessly) his rhetoric on the matter, I was wondering if you think he is portraying himself truthfully. Is he really the passionate, easy-going, thoughtful, long-suffering person he pictures himself as or is he really different. What I get from reading your few posts are an entirely different picture of him then he is painting with his posts. And you in turn are being pictured as cold and passionless and your marriage as unworthy of saving.<P>OW is pictured by WS, in typical WS fashion, as being faultless. You in turn paint us a picture of OW that sounds very familar to alot of other OWs on this board...a person who apparently has had a number of affairs, married (but unhappy), manipulative, less then ideal candidate for "soulmate of the year". Yet, she is WSs dream of a wife. Why? <P>Who is telling the truth here? It's interesting to see this much disparity between you and your SNL's view of things. Do all WS and BS see things so total different? Is the truth somewhere in the middle? Or is WS just blinded by the fog? <P>Usually when we have WS and BS on the board at the same time they have emerged from the fog of the affair and are moving toward recovery and the WS usually wants to help other WS see the light that they have seen or give a little hope to the suffering BS. <P>My WS may be a little crazy...he may have lost his mind over OW for a while...he may have had worms eating away at his brains...but he has never claimed, except at the very beginning of the A, that this OW was in anyway ever a replacement for me (in fact if you asked him he would readily tell you that OW was generally not a good person)...he always acknowledged that the problem was with himself...even though we both have admitted that we made mistakes in the marriage. <P>I ask you again...Is your WS for real?? I know you love him...but has the fog completely eaten away his brain?<P>I would very much appreciate hearing your side of this.<BR>I think its time we heard your side. Your WS is alot like mine...he uses his facility with words to numb you with rhetoric. Five-dollar words don't always contain five-dollar thoughts...they sometimes just sound like they do.<P>Please let us hear from you...in fact let this thread be "your" forum. I think you could use the help.<P>Faye <P><BR>.<P> <P>

Thinker--<BR>I hope you will post here, as Buffy has invited. I have sparred on occasion with SnL, and as Buffy indicated it seems to be a futile proposition. While he portrays you as 'the controller and fixer,' I rather see his endless babble as a different means of 'control.'<P>I have thought of you, his wife, often and hoped that you were getting support somewhere.<P>Prayerfully,<P>Cali

Hi Faye, Yes I do love my H very much. He is very much in love with the OW! Yes, OW cannot do anything wrong. H does protect her, and in fact he has asked me to not tell OW husband about the affair. The OW lives thousands of miles away, H met her on the internet. Yes, the OW has had for sure 2 affairs. I had her investigated. I know her husband does not know, OW has not told him. My H has told her she needs to tell her H about the affair. But I will not protect the OW and her shame, adulterious life (x2), and manipulation she used on my H and the other. <P>Sad_n_lonely is definitely in the fog. He does not think so, Jennifer has told me he is in a deep fog. He is quite analytical and searches deep for answers. His quest right now is to search deep for why this affair has happened, and to make sure this will never happen again. As said in previous posts, OW has had 1 other affair for sure, there is the most greatest chance if H and OW married she would stray again. I get distraut in thinking my H is in love with a woman of this character. I have never thought of being with another man ever, I had a painter try to seduce me while H was away and that scared the crap out of me. I have always been compliant to his needs, taken care of matters, and been there for all his surgeries, cares, deaths in family, etc. I mingle well with his family, and actually like some of his family very much. <P>H is a loner. He really has no friends to speak of except for Debi, the OW. He is distraut in losing her. We went out last night on a service call together (I enjoy doing this) and we talked on a bench in a small town. He asked what was wrong with having an opposite gender for a friend? If she fulfills his need of conversation of psychology, what is wrong with him having contact with her? I told him he has had the intimate, sexual contact with her. Whenever he hears her voice, the tone, the articulate words and etc. it brings back the deep emotional feelings. Jennifer has told him he should never have a friend of the opposite gender. She is a threat to our marriage and I am not to be disposed of and replaced with another woman. I also brought this proposition up, so you need a woman to fill you in conversation, then another to fill you in sex, then another to fill you in home duties, and etc. He said yeah that would be nice, jokingly. I said would you mind if I had 3 other men who fulfilled needs you don't. He put it that if the needs were important and you needed them, why not? I brought up the man I married is the only man I want to do anything with. <P>Yes, I believe that he is staying for financial reasons as well as making life comfortable. We talked about it some last night and he says he wants me to stay to work on our marriage. We are only working TOGETHER on this very little. Like Jennifer said, we can't move ahead until he gets rid of the OW. Last night he stated, what if 2 people are married and one wants the marriage and the other does not WANT the marriage. What does the other person do? Stay out of vows, pain, coercerin or what? I said if 2 people want the marriage to work it will be a wonderful marriage. But it takes 2 to make it beautiful. He kept saying what if the other person does not WANT it? (which I gathered to be him).<BR>He does not freely tell me he loves me. But he can say he loves the OW and or feels great feelings towards her. <P>We talked about talking to each other. I find him to be critical in his speech to me (not all the time). I have asked him a few times to correct his speech, and he has made a disrespectful comment to me. We talked about how talking nice to each other will come more natural and have more meaning. I find in myself that I love talking in a loving manner to him. It makes me feel beautiful and loving and warm to my H. He talked also about why should marriage be work? Why does one have to work on a marriage to have fun? He has stated in the boards and he has told me personally that him and Debi would have a wonderful relationship that would be caring and loving towards each other. They fit, they are soulmates, he is married to her spiritually and to me paper wise. Talk about hurt, he does not know and has not experienced the rejection that he bestows to me almost every day. <P>Now for the good parts of H, when he was not in the 'FOG'. He used to be a caring H, loved being with the kids, doing things for the kids, going to their activities, visiting friends, doing things with each families units, he is a hard worker today except when on the boards and talking to the other woman, he used to beable to talk to his mother (they have come to a wall), I am the mediator for the 2 of them. My H is the one who encouraged me to enter nursing school and keep with it. He enjoys reading, he likes adventure, travel, movies, some TV programs, some music he used to enjoy, and more. The thing now that he is in a deep fog, our conversation is strained, he does not like music on in the house, we go see movies together but he really does not enjoy my company. We used to walk in a big metro park when dating. I enjoy the great outdoors that God gave us to enjoy. He does not like being outdoors that much. He is more content to be inside and on the computer. I take care of the yard and plants and etc. <P>Negatives of H are he is a very disorganized person and he procrastinates big time. This is where we FIT quite well, I am organized as well as one can be in this situation. I take care of the books for our business, dispatch and etc. When a project needs to get done he can count on me to do it. Like a financial project that got done just yesterday with my phone calls, faxes, etc. and he did the final step taking to the airport to have the mail air mailed. When he came home from the airport, I told him thank you for mailing that, that is one thing done and off our heads. He needs someone to take care of paperwork and bills and calender events, appointments, and etc. I would like him to be more aware of his looks, he is overweight and does not care to dress in fashion. I buy his clothes for him, but he wears tennis shoes till his toes are sticking out and to get him to buy new shoes is a chore. I just ordered him a new pair, and he picked them up and he is still wearing the old ratty ones. Yes, I would like appearance to be fine tuned more. We used to go to church together, he used to teach Sunday school for the junior high kids. The church we used to go to was a family to us. He does not want to attend church now, I usually go by myself or with one son who still enjoys going to church. Religion is important to me and our values on religion are different now. I married with vows and he did not. Like he said on the boards, he did not marry me with love. I did marry him with love, commitment and spiritual love. <P>Husband is not the man I married. I find life everyday with him to be uncertain. We have some good days, I feel. But I get down so easily and then start to LB big time. I am thinking about going on medication. He states that he does not care about the family, home, etc. All he has to do is make enough money to survive for the family. I feel he does not WANT the marriage and wishes to leave to go to his OW. He states that she is committed to her husband. Why does my H record all her voice mails, why did he print off all the e-mails they sent each other and store them in the safe deposit box? In the safe deposit box are the cards he sent and she sent and little gifts. I guess she sent the stuff she had in a safe deposit box back to him so her husband wouldn't find out. <P>I will post more to you, but this Thursday and Friday we are having a big garage sale at my moms. So I won't beable to post until I get back home. Yes I will tell you more, and I hope I have given you the information you wanted. Pray for us and for peace in this family. I talk to God every day, I walk 3-5 miles every day to keep in shape and use the time to really talk to God and get my frustrations out. I believe God has helped me find out about this affair, and some of the deceit my H has done. <P>

Hi Cali, my husband talked about you last night. He feels for you and seems to want to help you! Yes H is a controller in ways, like counseling with Jennifer. He has stated to her that he will get rid of the other woman his way and his way only. Nobody can make him do anything. For an instance around the house, he puts things on the kitchen table and leaves the table loaded with things for days on end. I have asked him over the years to keep the table clean for dinner and for myself to put a vase of flowers on it. In counseling, the counselor asked him to keep the table, dining room and kitchen clean of his stuff for me. He has not done it without harshness. It is sort of a control silently to show me I am not or the counselor (old one) is not going to tell him what to do. He does control the decisions on the home front. I fixed a pair of shorts he wears endlessly, and I took it upon myself to repair them differently then what he wanted. Felt the way he wanted was not going to work. Finished the project and gave to him and he was unhappy. Stated he did not like the way they were fixed and I should of consulted him first. I probably should of, but I still feel I am the mender of clothing and I know what I am doing. So I took some dye and dyed the shorts so the mending was not so noticeable. He said they are better, but would of liked fixed the other way. Him and his mom are at a wall. She is getting booted out of her house and land, cause she sold it a year ago to a subdivider for homes, plus he bought the surrounding land also. H found this property close by that has a modular home and 9 acres with a barn for our horses. This home she (H mother)bought in Sept. I think. We gutted the home fixed the barn (horses are in it) and his mom and I had the window people out over a month ago. H wants to have the last say, and we are still waiting for him to call the window guy his mother picked out and he still has not done it. Part of the problem was he was deep in the affair, and his priority of course was the OW. I ask him nicely the last few weeks, please call the window people and the roofer, so his mom will see something is being done. He has agreed to do so very soon. I love his mom, and she needs to see that her home is getting fixed and to feel that she is taken care of. <P>Cali, H is not a bad guy. But he is in a deep fog and this is not the man I married. Like my father, this is not the father that I loved and love. My father had 4 mini strokes and is not the same. Jennifer has told me in counseling that when he gets out of the fog you will see a noticeable difference. She tells me to hang in there. I try, but seem to fall apart quickly. Jennifer has told me I have a lot on my shoulders to carry right now with the marriage, Husband emotions, my father, and dealing with his mother. I am a caregiver by nature. <P>I enjoy being around people, talking to people, being in a church, enjoying nature that God gave us, taking care of people. Husbands grandmother had Multiple Sclerosis and she lived in town with her Husband. Grandpa took good care of her, she was bedridden. I would make treats to take over for her to enjoy as well as Grandpa. I would help wash and clean their house. I read to grandma out of the bible a lot. She loved PSALMS. Grandma would get mail, and I would read to her the letters and show her the pictures. Her eyesight was failing. When Grandma died, I took care of my husband. This was a difficult time for him. We knew the time was coming, she deteriated quite rapidly in the last 3 months of her life. After Grandma died, Grandpa would ask me to help him out. I helped him with some financial papers, helped him pay bills. I would cook him meals and freeze them for him to use later. I would make meals and take fresh for him to eat that day. I would call him and find out how he was doing 2-3 times a week. When he became ill and was in the hospital the hospital called me to be his sort of guardian for him. Grandpas son lived out of state. So his son would call me to see how grandpa was doing. He was in the hospital for 10 days. I went and cleaned the house, washed all the clothing and sheets and towels and made the house clean for when he got home. I also made him a pot of chicken soup. His daughter in-law was coming from out of state to take care of him until he could be on his own again. She commented on how nice everything looked and smelled. An older gentleman does not take care of his clothing that well, and the house. <P>I am and will always be there for my husband. I wish I could feel the same from him. My love for my husband is deep. I wish that was the same to me. I love him, will be there for him unconditionally and want to be his lover for the rest of his life. He is the one holding the cards, and making the moves in this home. I pray for his love, and care and WANT. Cali, the BS seems to get the worst of an affair. I don't understand why God made it this way. The WS has the OP for emotional support, and then know that their BS is wanting them also. Seems unfair. Yes I will post to you later. Need to get some sleep for the garage sale today and tomorrow. Also, if it wasn't for me, this garage sale would of not happened. That is my organizational skill. I want to clean up the house and get rid of things we do not need anymore. Husband is a packrat and he is working on making it less. Thank you Husband. Love your wife.

Thinker,<P>Would you say that SNL is depressed? I am going to assume here that your response to that question is yes. Has he looked into getting help for this? Just does not seem that he will be able to move on until he handles that side of the problem first.<P>just my 2 cents<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Hi Buffy,<P>Thank you for starting this thread. Having you on this board has always been such a tremendous help to me. <P><BR>Thinker,<P>I believe you are married to my H. The way you described him, I'm sure my H is his identical twin. Please keep posting to us, Thinker. <P>Jo

Afternoon thinker:<P>I know you are busy with your garage sale but I do want to keep this thread open for you to get some help...for some of the wise people on this board to try and help you for a change....SNL has had enough attention and I not sure he is quite ready to accept help. The fog is thick but don't give up...some people it just takes more time. Some of the things you say he's said however make it sound like some of what is being said to him is slowly seeping through.<P>I'm amazed how similar your husband seems to mine...intellectual but naive about people, although my WS is not a loner...but he is very naive about people. He is disorganized as well, a couch potato, and like someone pointed out to your WS...the type of person who waits for someone else to make a life for him...he also is a lawyer but would be content to buy his clothes at Goodwill (in fact he and OW did for a while). As I was reading his post so much of what he was saying and his reactions had a familar ring to it. I quess that why I needed to hear from you so badly. And Resilent's WS is the same way...I agree.<P>Enough about my WS...just wanted to let you know that even the thickest fog finally lifts...and I find it encouraging that he is giving face-value to trying to work on the marriage...I think this indicates that deep-down he knows that he is wrong...but can't even admit it to himself much less to you or to this board. So he argues...tries to overwhelm us with rhetoric...hoping that in sheer desperation we'll agree he's right. No Way!!!!<P>He writes a lot about knowing this OW is the right person for him...on what does he base that....has he had extensive contact with her other then over the internet...EA or PA?...how much time have they really spent together.<P>And the funny thing seems to be that it appears to be one-sided...the great passion seems to be only on your WS side...what's up with that??? She wants to work on her marriage apparently....is he so sure of them that he is also willing to break up her marriage when she wants to save it.<P>Lastly, your WS has made several references to being unhappy for years...where you aware of that? If you were did you try to change? Were you unhappy? Was he filling your needs. Is this just his justification for wanting out suddenly coming forth now that he is in the middle of this "grand passion".<P>This is the first experience I had with being able to see both side of this...while it's going on...we are usually just limited to hearing one side or the other...and you know there is always a little truth on both sides.<P>Perhaps we can give you insights (born from being in the trenches for a while) that will help you deal with him because he is so similar to our WSs. I just wish I had had MB when my WS's A started....it would have made things so much easier to understand and deal with.<P>Write when you have time...we'll be waiting to help.<P>Faye<BR><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 05, 2001).]

Thinker:<P>One little thing I forgot to mention is that I think I know why your WS is trying to find validation for leaving you as a result of finding the "grand passion" or "soulmate" of his life. <P>You know why?<P>Because there is no other way any man would leave a warm, giving woman like you except through the meeting of the perfect partner, an event in his life that he has no control over (although I expect he went looking for someone over the internet). In other words he is excused from hurting you because he has met this perfect person and now that he's met her he feels he deserves happiness.<P>Fog...Fog...Fog....so think you can cut it with a knife.<P>Faye

HI Thinker,<BR>As I was reading all the comments and learning more about your situation, I found myself reliving why I came to marriagebuilders to start with. Oh the first time I happened here was an accident if you believe in such. I believe that it was God-directed. But I also posted at first in order to find validation for leaving my marriage and to find someway to rationalize the A I was in.<BR>of course I had some posts that I didn't want to hear and even stopped reading here for a bit. I just knew in my heart that the OM was my true "soulmate" and that it wasn't by mere coincident that we happened to "find" each other.<BR>We also started over the internet. We chatted for hours each day to each other. confiding things we should have kept only for our spouses. <BR>My H and I were both very active in our church, but as my A progressed my activites at church ceased. I figured if I stayed away from God's house, I could stop hearing God's voice as He spoke to me about what I was doing. Now, I should have known that doesn't work. I can run all I want from God, but I can never escape. And I am so thankful!!<BR>My H had so many people praying for me. Most did not even know what was happening only that I was going thru a crisis.<P>I just want to encourage to you hang on. The ride is very bumpy, but God knows which direction the road is going.<BR>It is so easy to see that OP as perfect and everything that could be perfect in your life. As least for me it was.<BR>But as long as he is with you there is hope. I know. And the fog is so thick especially when in love. And I was very much in love with my OM. But God is more powerful than anything else. Even if things don't work out like we would want. God sustains us thru it all. I saw such growth in my H in his Christian walk, that I just couldn't walk away. And thank God, my H wanted me and our marriage to work.<BR>I'm praying for you both.

Well, although I am reluctant to intrude on my wife's perceptions, they are hers (as are mine) and she is entitled to them, nor do I want this to degenerate into a he said, she said, with no way for anyone to independently verify (we will leave that up to jennifer to deal with).... I will just say for the record, I don't make anything up (not saying she is either), I realize it is pointless to misrepresent yourself if you seek honest feedback, (and I think I am fairly honest about stuff)....suffice to say I don't agree with some of W representations.<P>I fully expect my w to recieve more support (and definitely more sympathy) than I, and that is ok, I wanted her to come here for that reason alone, I cannot give that to her, for obvious reasons. But it serves no purpose to trivialize my concerns with demonizing or unflattering characterizations. They are very real, fog or not, and I am doing my level best to try and understand what is happening in my (and my wifes) life. Maybe it is a character flaw, but I cannot (and never have) do what someone tells me, just cause they say so, I have to understand why. Some think this forum is not helpful (cause of the complex psychological issues), including my wife, and there is some truth to that if one narrowly defines its purpose. What I value is the real life feedback of others in similar circumstances, to that end, for myself and wife, as well as others who benefit in the back and forth discussions of our lives, I hope she does continue to post. It interests me how often folks say, jeez you sound just like me, or my __________. That suggests to me that while we are all unique there is a great deal of uselful similarity too.<P>faye....I'm amazed how similar your husband seems to mine...intellectual but naive about people, although my WS is not a loner...<P>snl....I am naive, but not ignorant about people. Nor am I a loner, that was a misrepresntation, but I am particular about friends (I consider friendship just a notch below marriage). I prefer my spouse to be my best friend, and recipient of most of that energy, sadly that has not worked out. I am "friendly" though and engage in hours of interaction/conversation with a wide range of people. My wife sabotaged the one childhood friendship I had, eventually refusing to participate in it as a couple (he was married too) but I continue it as I can. Further she refused to have anyone to our house, because it didn't meet her standards, and of course it was my fault (and it was, as far as not meeting her standards, but it was acceptable enuf for company).<P>faye...He is disorganized as well, a couch potato, and like someone pointed out to your WS...the type of person who waits for someone else to make a life for him...<P>snl....I am very disorganized, but am not a couch potatoe. I have many interests, and that in itself is part of the disorganization, I get bored easily, and have trouble seeing things through, as well as a casual attitude about everyday stuff (like why do dishes have to be washed everyday, why not every other day). My wife knew all this long before marrying me, and she claims she liked my curiosity, analytical side etc. I do not wait for someone to make a life for him, I am the instigator in our family, including getting married in the first place. But if you mean make a life as in taking care of themself, yes I do wait, it is one of my wifes most endearing qualities, taking care of me personally. But there is a dark side to that, when it is done with criticism what could be very loving is not so. Nor is it all one-sided, I take care of her too. She does not like dealing with conflict, such as the govt, or insurance companies, or credit card disputes, and all that kind of (analytical) stuff, I do it all. Plus I figure out most of the complex financial issues we deal with (mortgages, investments, etc.) but I can't balance a checkbook, or pay a bill on time (she does all that)._<P>faye...he would be content to buy his clothes at Goodwill (in fact he and OW did for a while). As I was reading his post so much of what he was saying and his reactions had a familar ring to it. I quess that why I needed to hear from you so badly. And Resilent's WS is the same way...I agree.<P>snl....clothes are just to keep you covered and warm, a very pragmatic concern, I understand your H I think (unless he has some obsession). I am totally uninterested in how I am dressed, or adorned, ditto the condition of the vehicle I drive (it is just to get you from point a to b), took me 5 years to fix the lighter (which took about 15 minutes), cause I didn't need it. Wife would have had it to repair shop withing 48 hrs of discovery not working, whether needed or not. So this stuff has 2 sides to it, my procrastination has definitely been bad (cost us money etc.) from time to time, but her emphasis on controlling her enviroment to a certain standard has led to negative outcomes too, all this boils down to attitude, communication, MB principles (such as poja) etc. and is probably fixable. I know my wife has suddenly become highly motivated to fix stuff, I am less so, but that I suppose is the nature of the circumstances. But on top of that are the issues I have raised in other threads, which essentially reduce down to why does one stay married (or get married).<P>Keep in mind faye, bs have an agenda too, that being to minimize the reasons a ws may have to be unhappy. I do understand the nature of this site, but I also shake my head sometimes at the clearly self-serving rationalizations bs make and in doing so trash the very real issues of the ws. I do think the fog works both ways. <P>

Things my H said that I will have to disagree about. H states "He doesn't make anything up. I realize it is pointless to misrepresent yourself if you seek honest feedback." He has repeadedly told me he makes things more than what they are to get all the feedback on every part of the subject. So he states above he does not, then he is lying to me big time AGAIN. He tells me, it is not what it means when I read the stuff. How can I deal with a liar.<P>H states "Cannot give me support and sympathy." What kind of a man treats his wife like this. I give him support and sympathy, but he only has it for his Debi.<P>He states he is not a loner. He talks to people every day on his service calls. The childhood friend he has ended because I was tired of his wife asking how I can live in a house like this. Why doesn't H do something to make the house nicer. We were in a bible study with this friend and his wife. We were to take turns having the study at our houses. I refused, because of my husbands friend wife criticizing the way the house looked and kept saying why doesn't Joe fix it up. I told H what she said and he said to ignore it. My husband does not keep in contact with this friend today, except to do our taxes. He is our accountant. The last time he saw him was in February. No communication on the phone either. So don't blame that on me. Husband also said he doesn't want to do things with his friend because of his wife. She is too demanding and my husband doesn't like it. But of course husband blames me for his choice.<P>Husband states he is not a couch potato. No, he is a computer couch potato. He sits on the boards for hours and hours. I have documented 6 hours in a day in the last week. He would rather sit on the board then sit and watch TV with the family (I feel) or go for a walk with his wife, or go to the park with his wife. He tells me he is trying to figure things out with the board.<P>Husband does not take care of me. He takes care of Debi the OW. He is not thoughtful to me, Jennifer stated that to him tonight. He cannot be with the other woman present in his life. <P>As far as paperwork, I am dealing with insurance company now, I resolved a problem with my credit card a couple of months ago by myself without any help from him, financial stuff - if it wasn't for me, this financial paperwork I did would of not gone to the airport by him without all the work I did on the phone, fax, copying material for records and etc. I am capable of doing things quite well. Yes, Joe does take care of other things, but I have been doing well with issues I wasn't comfortable with before, I need to take care of myself since he is involved and caring to the OW first, and loving her first.<P>As you already know, I am counseling with Jennifer Harley. I was suppose to talk to her myself tonight for quite some time before H talked to her. Joe asked if he could listen in and I said sure. Giving him respect and thoughtfulness. We started the conversation pretty good, Jennifer asked how things are going and I said the same. Husband is still talking to the other woman and copying the voice mails she is sending him. We talked about thoughtfulness and caring. Jennifer told him that he is not being thoughtful to me or caring to me because he has to divide the attention between the two of us and of course his love for her is great, so I get a drop here and there. Jennifer asked if the affair is over and he said he needs more time. Of course she said she is not happy with the outcome. She privately told me that if this is not done with shortly she feels there is no hope for us. She told Joe he is not being thoughtful to me and that each day brings more hurt and pain to me. Jennifer asked Husband how much more time he needs. Husband said 4 more weeks. I said no, he said 3, I said no. He had since February to end the situation. Jennifer came inbetween the battle and said Joe how about 2 weeks. He came immediately back with as long as I can go for an extension if I want one. She said there has to be an agreement. I have asked him to please not talk to the OW in the house, our house with the family. Please take it outside. He takes the phone to bed with him, we sleep in separate rooms, his doing. I have bills that shows he is talking to her 3-4-5 times during the night. We have to talk about giving him 2 more weeks only, on the condition that he talks outside the house, and the phone is to be placed in my care during the night. Of course, husband said this is a threat to him. He is being forced to do something he doesn't want to do. He told Jennifer he does not like doing things that he is told to do. So Jennifer said then I should leave tomorrow. This is an option I have felt like doing and asked Jennifer if I should do it. Husband said he will not do Plan B, leave. He said this is his house and he will stay. So I said to myself, if he does not leave then I will. I hate to go, leave my kids and house and animals and Husband. But Jennifer reiterated to Joe that what he is doing is just stalling and putting more hurt and pain in our lifes. She feels he has had more than enough time. We are suppose to talk about the 2 weeks. But deep inside I feel like leaving as soon as I can. Yes financially it will be hard, and if we do plan B there is no communication between Joe and I. We are to have a 3rd party communicate between us. Joe came back to Jennifer with, the way the business is run it will be too difficult. She told him to hire someone to answer the phones during this time. I agree wholeheartedly. <P>We are not talking tonight. He is on the computer again, and I went out for a walk with the dogs, after crying my heart out on the phone with Jennifer, and then crying more in the woods with the dogs. Joe doesn't really care if I am crying or hurting. He would rather sit at the computer than to see the pain he has caused. Yes I am not a happy camper right now. Also, Jennifer told me when she talked to me privately the last few minutes, there is no use in talking to Joe anymore. She sees where he is not listening to her and he is going to do what he wants to do. She said I wish I could do more for you. So we have no counseling until 2 weeks. I am to e-mail if I need. If in great distress, I am to call and she will call back. She doesnot feel the need to talk to him again, until hurdle 1 is done. So my next counseling with Jennifer will be by myself. <P>I know Joe you are reading this. I am going to talk like a child. There, are you happy you got what you want? Does all the pain and hurt you are causing in this family make you and Debi feel better? I hope oneday you finally come to your senses and see how much damage you have done. And Jennifer says you are in a deep fog. We cannot get off block 1 and move to block 2 because of you. Therefore, I feel you don't want to move on and Jennifer is having doubts. She also told us that if you were to end it tonight she could see a beautiful and wonderful marriage for both of us. But you are not willing to try. You want your OW in your heart and are not accepting your wife in your heart. Joe you need to make a choice. We will talk sometime, but right now I feel I will lovebust you to pieces. I am crying and trying to hold myself together. Remember I have a garage sale to run tomorrow as well as answer the phones and try to conduct myself in a manner that is not depressing to the other people around me. Hope you are happy, cause I am so hurting and the pain is causing great health problems. Your Wife, (by paper)

thinker, I am so sorry that this is happening... I have already expressed my thoughts to snl, well, the ones that I felt were expressable on this forum.<P>I hope you will stay with us and talk with us when you can, because you are going through a terrible time and we can offer you the support of people who have been in very similar places. Listen to Jennifer and do what you must - no one here will condemn you for it. Your pain is real and you need to move away from that pain to save yourself and the love that you have for your husband... Plan B is for YOU, thinker, not for HIM.<P>I'll be thinking of you...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

We are not having a good evening. We do better when not dealing directly with each others feelings (kinda story of our lives). Tonight we were doing so, with usual results. As I said, I don't want this to be about he said, she said, so will not respond defensively. My W is understandably upset, but unfortuneately this does not help matters, maybe our difficulties are similar to some of yours. It is hard to see her upset, I don't want that. But I won't stuff my feelings anymore either, or respond to emotional demands. While it is true I have acted irresponsibly, I am trying to deal with it, this does not help. Mostly it just makes me think if I am so awful, why do you want me anyways.

SNL:<P>You know you have every right to love whomever you want...and I've told my WS this same thing...but you don't have a right to continue to put your wife in the middle...and it's not honerable to continue to do so...no matter how you feel about OW. This woman has stood by you for years, borne your children...she has a right to respect from you...if you can't decide who you want then you need to leave until you can decide....it's the very least you owe her. Stop making her life miserable because you can't decide.<P>I believe everyone here recognizes that any post has to be taken in view of the author's prejudice and evaluate it thereunder and my intent was not to vilify you but to see the other side. To examine your motives is not to say you are wrong but to explore what has led you to this reasoning that I find so hard to accept. I think people (myself included) have a tendency to delude themselves as to their true motives in emotional situations and sometimes others can clearly see what they cannot or do not want to see.<P>So don't get defensive about this thread...and if it makes you uncomfortable...try not to read it. But there are few people on this site who are actually living both sides of this nightmare and the interplay is very instructive. I just felt that your side of the story was being given an undue exposure on this board and wanted a little more balance...not that we have been that gentle with you yourself. Don't worry, we really understand where you are coming from but also understand where you will be in a few months and don't envy you the journey. Right now your wife is bleeding emotionally and needs help....and triage deals with the most needy at the moment...and the most likely to benefit from care.<P>I still have words to share with you but your wife's needs appears to be more important right now...because I know how she's hurting.<P>Faye<P> <P>

Buffy...ditto!<P>I have 'sparred' with SnL many a time and have come to the same conclusion.<P>While I was sad and hurt that my H left this weekend, there was kind of a relief...let him go out there...let him find out if he's better on his own...better with OW...<P>I got tired of 'being his excuse.' I was tired of hearing 'how he couldn't get anything done because of his family.'<P>I want him to come back more than anything, but only because he wants to. Only when he's really ready and willing to work on the marriage...not out of duty, pity or obligation.<P>And SnL, my post to you clearly said that...I believe God intends for marriage to be forever...I wrote many Biblical passages to you...but neither does God want for marriage to be martyrdom...and you are not 'letting' it be any other way for YOU or YOUR WIFE.<P>I told my H today...he/we can keep going backwards, he/we can stand in place or we/me can move forward....<P>I intend to move forward...why don't you let your wife and why don't you move forward?<P>Cali

Thinker:<P>Thanks for your thoughtful and compelling portrayal.<P>I do not think that it comes down to a case of he said/she said. The truth, in life, is the midpoint of varied perceptions. You are on the right course, and I am glad to welcome you to MarriageBuilders with all the others who have responded here.<P>SnL: You are still in the fog in many regards. You either commit fully to what MarriageBuilders teaches and implement it to rebuild your marriage; or you terminate your marriage. Fence sitting garners splinters you-know-where.<P>"Intellectual exercises", in this case, are a means to perpetuate the fog.<P>T and SnL: Continue your dialog and exploration of needs, etc. But it must be done with the four rules in mind: honesty, care, protection and time. To communicate as you have been is counterproductive to your marital recovery.<P>Godspeed to you both,<BR>STL

Thinker:<P>How's the garage sale going? Trading junk is wonderful isn't it...unless someone informs you that they also think your junk is junk. (What this wonderful treasure...a piece of junk!!! My grandmother carried it across the prairie in a covered wagon.) <P>Everytime I read a new post by you, I see more of what I've been living with for years...and I not saying that I don't love my WS...but am astonished how out of tune to the world some people can be...maybe because they are too wrapped up in themselves.<P>But you know what...he's got you convinced too...you are all wrapped up in him too...probably have been for years...giving and giving...and getting little in return...your contributions to his life minimized and never appreciated...and then one day he's just not there anymore for you...he's found someone else...someone who will treat him better then you...someone who deserves him. And you're buying it...wounded at the deflection of his love...tossed aside in a second for a potential new love. <P>I don't know why we can't just say...go ahead...take OW and run with her....most of the time even we can see that there is no real future there....but no...we let WS use his indecision as a battering ram against us...let them beat us to death with it...instead of just kicking their b***s out and saying I'll be here when you can decide. Where is our pride? After months of emotional abuse I did just that and don't regret it for a second.<P>This is partly the reasons I was asking the questions about the things he was saying about being unhappy for years and about whether you have been unhappy, too. Have you made mistakes like all of us? This is were I think you need to focus your efforts....on self-analysis and self-evaluation...and let him deal with his own problems. Take yourself out of the middle of his problem...you're merely getting buffeted to dead by his indecision...and there's no need to put yourself through that. It still hurt like h*** but your self-esteem does not take such a beating...and that's important. Say "NO MORE" and mean it...if he leaves he leaves...although I'm not too sure he wants to leave. I think he likes all this drama...with him in the middle. Someone has to draw a line in the sand because I don't think he ever will.<P>Faye<P><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 06, 2001).]

Thinker,<P>I am going to share with you a post I did back in April. It seems so long ago but really it wasn't. You will read and can probably relate to my pain. It is similar to yours. But the support back to me was invaluable. For this reason I am sending you my thread. <P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008463.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008463.html</A> <P>Hope some of the comments here help. Your frustration sounds like mine. I know your H would not want to be married to someone like me. You will see from my post, I would not be as tolerable as you have been. In fact, I shared this statement with my H. <P>Take Care and don't give up on us. <P>L.<BR>

Joseph, did you listen to what Jennifer had to say? She is tired of this game you are playing. You have to make a choice, and if your choice is to leave to your lover Debi, then do it and get out. I am hurting so bad, once again I had hopeful thoughts before I was to talk with Jennifer. Also, you are not helping Debi with her marriage, you are making it harder for her to reconcile with her marriage. Joseph, Debi (you told me) does not want you. She wants to hold her marriage together. Therefore, you are lieing to me everyday. You want her in her life more than anything, you love her more than anything, you need her more than anything, you need to go to her!<P>I am in love with the Joseph I used to know. This is Joseph the man in a BIG FOG, Jennifer said last night. You are focused on one thing, Debi. Therefore you have nothing towards me, just some show to me. Joseph, didn't Jennifer say you are protecting me and thoughtful towards me. You are towards your lover Debi, cause you cannot divide yourself between your lover and your wife by paper only. <P>My husband has told me repeadedly that he and Debi are married spiritually, emotionally, and oneflesh. He considers her his wife, he has told me I am his wife by paper only. Hurt, Hurt, Hurt, HURT, HURT, HURT!!!!!!!!!!<P>Cali, I thank you for listening to me. I feel I will be in the same spot as you very very soon. Joseph loves this woman with all his HEART. There is no love towards me. He tapes her voice mails, does this sound like a man that wants to reconcile in his marriage? Taking his cellphone to bed with him to hear her voice mails, and make voice mails, does this sound like a man that wants a marriage with his paper wife? This paper wife is very unhappy, actually I feel dead today, suicidal, and just plain rejected big time. <P>Why did you lie to me Joseph, why did you tell me what you wrote in the posts all these months were not true, that you were trying to find out all the sides of the story? Why do you continuously lie to me? Everything you have said is the truth, everything! Hopefully, I hope you and Debi have a good life together, to distrustful, adulterous (Debi 2 times having an affair), liars, fantasy world, unreliable, people have a good marriage. <BR>Joseph,<BR>Please leave me alone today. Do not come to the garage sale today. Just leave ME ALONE you liar.! If I am not good enough for you, if I don't compare to your loving Debi, and I cannot fulfuill you like she can (heard so many times), leave on the plane and go to Arizona and go in her arms. I am only human, and what did Jennifer say last night on the phone. There is so much time one can take, and it is waring thin for your wife. Also, didn't she tell you Joe, that this turmoil you are putting on us, can cause serious health problems. Well, as you know Joe, I have health problems, and you are not concerned. My H tells me Debi is so depressed, so suicidal, her health is not good, and etc. Does he ever think about his paper wife being in bad shape, or even think about me? NO DEBI IS HIS LOVE, SPIRITUAL WIFE, AND LOVER. Snl wife is hurting, and crying, Goodbye.<P>

Joseph, you heard what Jennifer had to say last night. You will not be talking to her again. The next conversation is for her and I only. She said there is no use in talking to you. You don't listen to her, you have to do it your way. This will actually be the last time I talk to her too. She is having her doubts now. You and your DEBI are involved and you are not letting your life go on without DEBI.<P>Therefore, I feel you should take a flight to Arizona and be in your lovers ARMS. Take and caress her, tell her your intimate, loving, sexual, thoughts. Take her Joseph, she is the only one you want to wake up in bed with, do things with, play with and enjoy. I wil get over it in due time, Jennifer said 2-3 years. <P>Hopefully 2 liars, deceitful, adulteruous, misguiding, unloyal, unchristians can live happily ever after. Wait until DEBIS HUSBAND gets a load of this. He will find out and boy will DEBI have her hands full. Of course my Joseph will be next to her side to protect her and care for her. Alright DEBI, you have him, enjoy him. <P>I will always love you Joseph in some way. I am sorry we cannot have the love Jennifer says we could have, you don't want it. We cannot get of block one and move onto block 2 because of you. I get the picture quite well, you wanted 4 more weeks. Then an extension after 2 weeks. Maybe you want all the time you can have. Well, the door is open. Go and do what you want. The kids and I will get along, it will be hard. Also, you have the cell phone to pay, and you are responsible for it. It is your calls to Debi, I sure didn't talk to her. <P>I feel I am LB big time. So I will just go to the garage sale and continue today like nothing new has happened. Please leave me alone today. Life is miserable and stressful enough as it is. Only come to the sale if you want me as your wife or want to work on this marriage. I do not want to be second in your life anymore. Like you have been told, your DEBI lover is 1st in your life. Then go to your 2nd wife, your true wife, your spiritual wife, your emotional wife, your psychologial wife, your soulmate, your oneflesh. I know you did not need a man of GOD (preacher, minister, priest, or whatever) to make you husband and wife (Debi). You have told me so. Also, I feel the information on giving her a ring is true too. <P>A lot of explaining has to be done, today I will live alone, and try to get through the day, and 1/2 day tomorrow in front of my family and friends at the garage sale. Being by yourself is quite lonely, and you will have your DEBI to talk and hold. Love, your paper WIFE