She is really down tonight. Says life is just so bad and terrible. I'm trying to be there for her. (Plan A, wink, wink)<P>I tried "You have lots to be thankful for..."<P>Wrong! LB!<P>I tried "Hang in there"<P>Neutral response.<P>I tried "Life is tough... you have to roll with it..."<P>Half-LB...<P>What can you say to someone so intent on being miserable?<P>I guess nothing...<P>-zen<P>p.s. Saying nothing just feels so wrong...

I don't know the answer.... just asking though.... DId you - or can you - she may not be at this point either.... Did you just offer an ear if she wants - sort of like if she wants to talk you're there. Like, "what do you mean?" or just tilt your head and look like you want to help with a look of concern and "whaddya mean" expression on your face.... instead of giving advice.... I'm sure you've heard (I think it's in HNHN) that sometimes women just want someone to listen to them - not try to fix the problem or give advice - just a aympathetic ear.... if the time of the conversation has already past, maybe you can tilt your head and look gentle and caring and bring it back up again "what did you mean earlier when you said life sucks? I'm sorry I didn't ask you what you meant."<P>You know your situation and your W...... just a thought or two.. <P>------------------<BR>Faith1

Asking if I want a chocolate malt would work for me.

Would, "Right back at 'ya, babe!"...in a "I know what you mean" spirited way, be out of line for the two of you?<P>Moreover, I do agree with Faith (above)...sometimes women just want to be heard. Perhaps you should validate her feelings by saying something like, "I understand that you are hurting. How can I help tonight?"<P>Just a thought. Peace, ~Marie<P><P>------------------<BR>I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. <P>The Bible<BR>Matthew 17:20

zen,<P>One of the main differences between men and women described in the "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" books is JUST what you are asking about. IN GENERAL (of course, everyone is different, and this may not apply to some of us here), women want to talk about how they feel - to "commiserate". And also, IN GENERAL (insert disclaimer here) men don't want to talk about it, they just want to solve or fix it. My take is that your wife wants some caring and sympathy, and you think you are helping by telling her how lucky she is. I know you certainly don't mean it this way, but think about it from a different perspective: by telling her she has lots to be thankful for, you are admonishing her for feeling bad (I KNOW! That's NOT what you meant - remember - FOG)... By telling her "Hang in there" she may feel that you are minimizing how she is feeling - not truly acknowledging her feelings. Finally, by telling her "Life is tough..." you are lecturing her... not acknowledging her feelings and even a little admonishing in that one.<P>Truly, zen, I know you don't mean it that way. But, I'll bet that is how she is seeing it.<P>Commiserate... sympathize. Not too patronizing... Yup, it's really hard to get it right. I'm thinking, "I'm sorry that you're feeling so down... I understand that things are tough for you right now. Any time you want to talk, I'm here for you." What do you think?<P>Again, as has been said thousands of times on this site, when an affair is tearing a marriage apart, the bulk of the work falls on the shoulders of the betrayed. And I will say again that it SUCKS ROCKS ... but it IS how it IS. Only you can decide if you want to work that hard for it.<P>Good luck - sounds as if your heart is in the right place, zen!<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Zen,<P>I wrote my response before I read Terri's. We are saying exactly the same thing. I've going to post mine anyway just incase it helps to hear it twice.<P>In case you have not noticed men and women are very different (LOL). We are actually wired differently (proven scientific fact). And no one handed out users manuals.<BR> <P>Lesson 101 on women.<P>Men and women have very different styles in handling problems and feelings.<P>When a man has a problem or a feeling to sort out, generally they will retreat to their “cave” and sort it out on their own. If a man feels he wants input he will usually discuss it with someone he highly respects. He is looking for input and advice. For a man to talk to someone about his problems it means that he really respects that person.<P>I have learned over time that the best thing I can do when STL is in this mode is to leave him alone. If he needs my help he will come and talk to me. I do not pursue or bug him. Now I might do things like bringing him a cup of coffee or a snack. But he’s a grown man and he can figure things out himself. <P>Now women are very different. When we feel bad or have a problem we love to talk about it endlessly. We will talk to just about anyone who will listen. Though our preferred audience is our husband or our best friends. We are not looking for someone to solve our problems, cheer us up, or show us how lucky we are. We are looking for someone to simply listen to us. We can fix the problem ourselves but we want a sounding board. <P>If you, the listener, tries to solve our problem we feel that you don’t think we are capable. It’s a put down.<P>If you, the listener, tries to cheer us up or show us how lucky we are, we feel that you are negating us.<P>So, don’t try to handle a woman the way you would a man. All you have to do is listen and nod your head. Sound sympathetic. If you give advice, throw it out there for her to think over, mull around, etc. But leave it up to her to do her own fixing. <P>The only caveat to this is if the woman asks you specifically to handle the problem for them. <P><BR>She says: “Life is just so bad and terrible”<P>None of these worked right?<BR>You said: "You have lots to be thankful for..." Wrong! LB! <P>You said: "Hang in there" Neutral response. <P>You said: "Life is tough... you have to roll with it..." Half-LB... <P>Try this next time..<P>Say: You’re right, some times it just sucks.<P>Or say: I’m sorry you’re not feeling very chipper right now. I know it’s been tough for you.<P>Or say: Sounds like you are having a bad day. Would you like to tell me about it. (If you include that last sentence be prepared to listen for a while and empathize.)<P>That’s all she wants. Is for someone to empathize with her. Someone who is really listening to what she is saying. Not someone who tries to fix everything for her.<P>If you have not already done so, you might want to read the book “Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus”. <P>Z<P><BR>

Thanks so much for all of your advice.<P>Terri and Zor: Your information is invaluable. You know, I once knew this sort of intuitively, but I'd long forgotten it, plus in the stage we're in now, I find myself desperate to "help." No wonder she says "There's nothing you can say to fix it..." There is so much truth to the idea that men just want to "solve it."<P>Well, I did a pretty good job of listening, and I need to emphasize the fact that I'm always available as an ear.<P>Just another facet of this process that requires the discipline to go against your emotional reaction and do the right thing. Every word counts.<P>Thanks again!<P>-zen

zen,<P>You'll know that you've absorbed the concept when you start having the following conversations instinctively and often:<P>Me: What are these boxes doing on the floor?<P>Her: I want to put them on the top shelf, but I couldn't reach it.<P>Me: You're right, that shelf is pretty high.<P>Her: (PUNCH!) This is a problem you can solve for me!<P><BR>--Jeffers<P>Note: MB does not condone violence of any kind.<P><BR>

BIG, BIG ditto to the Ladies.<P>I wish I had learned this fact earlier. We guys naturally try to fix all problems we're handed. We're hard wired for that. THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY WANT!!! ("they" being from Venus - the original ALIENS )<P>All they want us to do, it seems, is just agree with them. WHETHER WE AGREE OR NOT!!! Do you want to be right, or constantly "wrong." This is the BIG secret we guys have to keep just to ourselves. That's why there's the "guy" version of the Policy of Radical Honesty - oops, shouldn't have let that out!!<P>WAT

You guys are killing me! Funny funny but true. But I'll tell you, WAT, they KNOW when you're agreeing with them just to agree. Dang it, why do you women have to make us *think*? <P>-zen

Sorry Zen,<P>We are just hard wired that way. It's really not our fault. (Sniffle sniffle)<P>You guys are cracking me up.<P>And WAT you are right we do know when you guys don’t really agree and are just agreeing to appease us. Lol Guess it’s hard to win. It’s actually ok to say I see what you are saying. I don’t agree but your point is valid too. We can usually live with that.<P>Actually the point is that we want to fix it ourselves. We want to be treated like grown up girls. And hey, we may be aliens but let’s face it you guys like us. And we like you guys too. It just works well that way.<P>Believe me, women find men equally as confusing. <P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

--<p>[This message has been edited by jw3 (edited July 12, 2001).]

--<p>[This message has been edited by jw3 (edited July 12, 2001).]

This made me think of Click and Clack (Cartalk- the Magliozzi brothers). Their advice to husbands who write in regarding their wives and cars is this: Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? <BR>But seriously... I used to try and just listen, to let her know that I was there for her, and that I loved her no matter what.<BR>Hang in there!

zen, et al:<P>Look at a map of the solar system. Mars, Venus. Any questions? As George Carlin once said, "We are all silly bits of protoplasm from the planet Earth."<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL