He won't stop it. He won't stop lying.<P>The other night, my little son and I came home from softball practice and the door was locked. The minute I tried the door knob, a huge alarm went off in my head. I knew that he locked the door in order to alert himself of my return. Sure enough, I walked in and caught him "pleasuring" himself with a lady on the internet. He closed the screen on the laptop as I came in, but not in time. I saw the image that was being sent.<P>I gave him a few seconds, then I said "You didn't want to come watch the kid's game because you had better things to do, huh? Like look at dirty pictures?"<P>He yelled "I WASN'T looking at anything."<P>I said "Then bring that file up again, let's take a look."<P>He denied being on the internet. Then I said, "Well, let's look at the documents that you've had open."<P>He opened some stupid picture of a building with a fence around it. I said, sarcastically "So that's what was getting you so excited? I don't think so. Stop messing with me."<P>I stood over his shoulder for about 20 minutes while he went from out-right denial, to telling me that he wasn't looking at the internet, this was his own personal file he was looking at (so I asked who the woman in the picture was,) then he began telling me that he was looking at the internet, but he didn't know who was in the picture. . .you know the drill.<P>He told me go away, go away, leave me alone--to the point that he was almost crying. He lied and denied away like crazy--then he began his usual routine of trying to divert attention away from himself and onto me be informing me of all the horrible things I have done in life.<P>I told him flat out that I won't be married to someone that lies like this (I don't know about you all, but this scares me.)<P>Your opinions? Lies like this are frightening--it is the sign of a sick person. I don't know if there is any hope.

I wonder if he would lie less if he felt his actions weren't going to be critized so much, if you were a bit more accepting.<BR>NOw, I'm not saying that you should be completely accepting of his "pleasuring" himself to some women on the internet but maybe if you didn't jump down his throat every time he did it he might lie less about it. It may be a way to get him to start being more honest and then you two can start dealing with the other issues.<BR>(It's just a thought, not meant to pi$$ you off!)

Naw, that's cool--I asked because I wanted to know if I am out of line here.<P>But this is probably the worst that I have reacted to this mess. I am sick and tired of being lied to.<P>What my question is--does he have a problem with lying or does he have a problem with being a sex addict and the lies just go with it?

Bernzini,<P>I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but in general, men do like looking at porn. And, no judgements here, there’s some pretty hot stuff out there in the internet. Even Jay Leno did a gag about this on his show. He attended a computer exhibition and asked a variety of men when their last date was – none of ‘em could remember. Then he asked them if they knew the internet address of playboy. You got it – everybody did <P>If your husbands into this kind of thing and you’re disgusted by it, then you’ll need to go very slowly. You need space here to solve this and not drive the two of you up the wall.<P>What you could do is try to replace his need for porn with a need for you – would that be ok for you? Try not to slam him or make judgement calls about his behaviour. You might be ready to kick him out of the house but this isn’t going to help either of you solve this. So, whatever you do, even if he makes your stomach turn, don’t get angry at him. It’ll really turn him against you.<P>Why not try to create an environment where you can open a discussion with him on this. You could tell him for example how you feel about his behaviour, how it hurts you, decreases your respect for him, doesn’t help you love him any, removes any desire you have for him – that type of thing. Then ask him if you could work together to stop it. Tell him you need time but you also need him to stop. Get into a negotiation with him about it. Don’t put him on the spot with direct questions like asking him 'what's he doing' – he’s obviously very embarassed about his activities, very embarassed that you caught him and he’s very hurt by your stinging remarks.<P>If you really want to – you can get any man to drop this kinda stuff. It's really very easy. What do you think? Is he worth a try?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Freddy (edited August 08, 2001).]

I'm confused - was he looking at porn...or was he pleasuring himself with pictures sent by another woman to him?<P>There's more than a couple issues here!<P>Is he a sex addict?<BR> <A HREF="http://www.ncsac.org/article.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ncsac.org/article.htm</A> <P>It's possible. <P>Frankly, I was sick of being told repeatedly that if I was bothered by my H's frequent porn use, that the problem was ME. I was constantly told: "It's common, men do it all the time, you can't stop them, its natural, its got nothing to do with you...yadda yadda yadda." I was told that if I was hurt by it, that I had issues and insecurities. NOT!!<P>Well, yes I did and do have insecurities. But I had the right to feel what I felt. And I do think it's a form of infidelity. Therapists that poo-poo the effect of porn on a marital relationship make me crazy.<P>Sorry, I don't buy that for a second. At the very least, its very selfish and thoughtless when the activity knowingly continues at the other spouses expense.<P>Not only that, but I am sick of the attitude that "Men will be men" and that we can't expect them to control their urges. Rather disrespectful of men, don'tcha think?<P>Like you, I was constantly catching my H pleasuring himself. Every single night, night after night. Lie after lie after lie.<P>It hurt like hell, and my response was exactly like yours. It wasn't helpful. Are you right in feeling outraged? ABSOLUTELY. But screaming and crying and demanding didn't ever change a thing. <P>I do take issue with the suggestions above that you:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>try to replace his need for porn with a need for you<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From a Plan A perspective, perhaps. But trying to compete with porn is the same as trying to compete with another woman. All that will do is cause more heartache, frustration, and loss of self-esteem. <P>Do you men out there understand just how devastating porn use is to us women?<BR> <BR>My H and I eventually did come to a resolution regarding porn (but not until he had a nice long affair!). In the end, he admitted that it was a form of infidelity, because he put sexual energy into that rather than with me. He also acknowledged that he continued, knowing that he hurt me, because he was angry with me for many things. <P>We now have a POJA regarding porn. But it took along time and alot of other issues had to get resolved before either of us could deal with the porn issue in a reasonable fashion. I did have to stop the disrespectful judgements. He had to make a conscious decision to put his energy into loving me. And of course, what man is going to make a conscious decision to love a woman that is screaming, crying, begging, nagging and pleading? It doesn't work any better with porn that it does with an affair. <P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

B:<P>Radical honesty. Yes, you should make a "deal" of it when you catch him in a lie. However, do try to put it in the "I" context: "I am concerned about this kind of behavior." for instance.<P>Always try to balance honesty within the bounds of care and protection (hard to do when royally pi$$ed, I know). As for computer use for that sort of purpose, there is always monitoring software: <A HREF="http://www.iopus.com." TARGET=_blank>http://www.iopus.com.</A> <P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you really want to – you can get any man to drop this kinda stuff. It's really very easy. What do you think? Is he worth a try?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>After I just posted above, I went back and then read this statement above by Freddy.<P>Uh. Freddy, what if she was complaining about her H having an affair? Would you tell her that she could easily get her H to drop the affair?<P>She has NO control over this. She can't make him do it, or make him stop it. She can't "get" him to do anything. He has to make a choice. Can she plan A him? Sure. But I am hearing in your response that he must be using porn because he isn't getting it with her.<P>If he's a sex addict (and I'm not saying that he is) - she could be the wildest most skilled sex goddess in the entire world, and he'd still be using porn.<P>At the very least, he is treating her with callous thoughtlessness and disrespect. <P>There was a time in my marriage that I tried to compete with the porn. My H liked that - he got great sex and great porn! All it did was rip me to shreds as a woman.<P>As I said before, the resolution came only when he had made a conscious decision to love me and stop hurting me.<P>I understand that much of what you suggested could be called Plan A...but there's a bit of an underlying current in your response that seems to me that somehow this is her fault. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you...sometimes its hard to over the net to truly understand the context of tone and meaning of these little typed words.<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Bramblerose,<P>I really didn't intend to hurt anybody here - just voicing an opinion. And I'm not, absolutely not saying that anybodys behaviour is the cause of this type of fixation. I'm very prepared to discuss the issues here in an open, honest environment so that we might all learn something. I've made some experiences in this area and they're obviously wildly different from yours. However, I'm not prepared to hurt or offend anybody by my expressing my views. If somebody feels that I'm doing this, please tell me, and I will withdraw.<P>In reply to your post:<P>1. Do you men out there understand just how devastating porn use is to us women?<P>Personally, I don't buy any porn magazines. I have visited a few web sites - but never engaged further than the first page. And, to be honest I don't understand just how devastating 'porn use' is to women. What do you mean when you say 'porn use' and what does it do to women? <P>2. compete with porn<P>I'm not suggesting for a moment that anybody should compete with porn, OWs or anything. I'm only suggesting advice within a MB principles.<P><BR>

You guys are great! That you for your responses--with different points of view, yes, but I am grateful to each of you.<P>This is what my husband has said to me: "We have not always gotten along, but the sex has been great." This is not saying that I really go along with some of the alternative pleasures that he has sought occasionally. But I try and I think that I do pretty well. I don't understand his persistance in supplementing his sex life.<P>I do not like porn. I hate it. I think that it is degrading to human beings, men and women alike. And I think that I have made a point that many people do not agree with. Some people feel that it is healthy expression. I don't, but maybe I am wrong. Am I?<P>What makes me upset, really, is the lying. All he had to do is open the file back up and let me see that all it was was a picture of a naked woman (I saw enough--she was fat and had a pimply butt, so it wasn't your mainline porn. It was amature, or webcam stuff.) If all it was was a nasty picture, I would have been cool with it.<P>I know for a fact that he chats with girls, but doesn't necessarily talk dirty to them, ect. He flatters and flirts and tells them they are gorgeous, ect. There's a lot involved, more than just talking nasty. I don't know why.<P>This is also how he got involved with Miss Kitty, his main squeeze there for a while.<P>If he is just looking at pictures, then he is playing with fire.<P>I have been around men enough to know that they look at dirty pictures, magazines, and stuff like that. I guess that is, in fact, natural. I have the distinct feeling that what my husband is doing has a lot more behind it.

Hi Berzini,<P>It is the lying that is hurting you. Then the porn. One leads to the other. Bottom line is that he is destroying the trust in your marriage. <P>Instead of hitting on the porn subject first, when you are both a bit calmer, try asking about his need to lie. See if you can find out why he feels he needs to lie, then work your way towards the porn and other issues. <P>There may be a root cause there. He may fear your anger and want to avoid confrontation. My H did that. Sneaking around. You think they would learn but they are too busy using their brain for trying to get away with stuff and busy planning their next bad move that their minds have little time for common sense and good manners. Hard to believe? It is true. <P>It is called being selfish and greedy. A whole other topic. IMHO, I think you need to concentrate on his real deep seated issues. Show concern in that area and watch his response. Tread carefully now, you are going to be dealing with raw emotions. <P>Take Care, <BR>L.<BR>

I am getting some caring responses here--I hate that I have to leave but it is really late at night here where I am at and I have to go get some sleep (I hardly slept last night--H is gone, he took a few things and left.)<P>We got into a huge row over the dirty picture. I had grabbed the laptop, foolishly, because my husband is a lot bigger and stronger than me, there was no way in heck that I could have open the file back up with my husband in the house. We wrestled over the computer, right in front of the kid. We knocked things over in the livingroom, each of us holding onto the computer, lamps, tables, chairs--I am pretty sure that the computer is no longer whole. I dunno. If nothing else, he took that with him along with the clothes on his back. It was an ugly, shameful scene. (This is how badly he did NOT want me to see the picture.)<P>Anyways, my husband is gone. He came back once, and he says "Can we talk." And I was really mad. All I said was "Yeah, so you can lie to me some more. I have heard enough." He says "Okay, so what is it that you want to know?" (He always says that, then he doesn't tell me--I ask him open questions like "Exactly how many were there, no names, no description of sex acts, I just want to know." He just gets mad when I ask him.) <P>Well, after he said "Let's talk. . ." he starts going off on me about how I am invading his privacy, I am the one being sneaky, I am the one who lies (well, yeah, I guess I do--I am trying to practice OPSEC here and cover my investigation tracks.) He tells me it's his business. I tell him that if he wants to stay married to me, it's my business to. That is, if he wants to stay married to me.<P>He's coming back tomorrow to watch the kid while I work.<P>Really guys, this is getting so ugly, I don't know how we could ever really resolve this.<P>My husband is so obviously a sex addict. Like with any addiction, the first thing that one needs to do is to admit their addiction and quit denying. . .nothing, not separation, not threat of STD, not the suggestion that his command with be informed, has caused him to admit his addiction yet. I do not know what will, in this case.<P>I think that only if we are divorced or else he comes up HIV positive--this will get his attention. I am at a loss, I don't know what to do now.<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited August 08, 2001).]

Oh, yeah--I will see you in the morning. Thanks for your help--I will check back

Bramblerose,<P>I need to reply to your posting because I want to make sure I'm understood. This website has been a great help to me and I'd hate to offend anybody.<P>I am not saying that Bernzini is the cause of or that she's responsible for her husbands behaviour. Her husbands behaviour is his and his responsibility alone. I understand the lies hurt, I understand that porn can be viewed as disgusting. I was just trying to offer some Plan A advice because I don't see LBing helping here.<P>Bramblerose, I don't want to go head to head with you - you've been through too much pain and you haven't done anything to deserve that from me.<P>take care <P><p>[This message has been edited by Freddy (edited August 08, 2001).]

Ok. He's in big denial? You can't bring him out of denial. I guess you know that. And you can't zap him free of his addiction. I guess you know that too.<P>But you can work on yourself. <P>Try calling the international office of S-Anon to see if they have a group in your area. S-Anon is a 12-step group for the co-addicts of people with sexual addiction. Very similar to Al-Anon. Their telephone number is 615-833-3152.

Maybe you can attack this one problem at a time, starting with the lieing. My belief is that people lie due to some feeling of shame or guilt over what they did or thought or whatever. If you can find away to build a certain trust with your H, one that makes him feel nonjudged and completely accepted (as a person) then his need for lieing might start to fade. It's hard cuz in a sense you have to accept his behavior of looking at porn. But maybe once that trust in being able to be honest without you getting upset is established, then you can tackle the whole pornography issue with him. IF he's developed an honest relationship with you then discussing the issue of pornography might be less threatening to him if you do it in a non threatening manner. <BR>Dont know if I made sense in what I was trying to say though. I guess in a way it almost sounds like I"m trying to say to play this false roll of aproving of Or atleast not angrily disapproving of, what he's doing to get him to trust you enough to be honest with you about it. <BR>I personally don't agree that you too should have started physically fighting over the computer though, that didn't help matters much at all. I"m sure there's a more rational and calm way of dealing with it

My went through pretty much the same drill with my husband for the past 6 months - once I had gained knowledge that his porn use was out of control. Lies, clearing out Internet caches, quicly closing out windows. I also caught him receiving porn files from a former co-worker, and even have an extermely sexualized conversation via AOL Instant Messanger about her giving him a blowjob. Needless to say, it pretty much made me crazy. It then culminated in a 4 month long affair that is only ending now.<P>A couple things I did: first, I worked on myself and my problems, esp. the way he is reacting. I've come to realize that my husband has an addiction to porn. He cannot stop without outside help, and preferably help from God.<P>There are lots of supports out there for women who's husbands have this addiction - I belong to a e-mail based group run by New Life Ministries <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/~newlifemn/." TARGET=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/~newlifemn/.</A> Also I am in the process of reading a book by Laurie Hall called "An Affair of the Mind," published by Focus on the Family - which is her story about dealing with her husband's sexual addiction. There are also some great resources out there for information on pornography and sexual addiction. My favorite site is the American Family Association <A HREF="http://www.afa.net/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.afa.net/</A> - click on the link to their porn section - should be under issues heading I think. My prayers go with you - this is so hard, and I still deal with how I feel about it every day. But, I know that anger, judgements, and outbursts won't help my husband to stop. My prayers, my patience, and my loving support will.<P>Peace of Christ to you,<P>WLE

B:<P>It all begins with radical honesty. A house built upon lies cannot stand. Honesty is the bedrock of any relationship. So it is important to get that established as quickly as possible.<P>To implement the rule of honesty, however, there has to be a caring and protected place for him (and you) to be honest with one another. Amazing how it all ties together.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Oh I'm not offended at all Freddy! Just got busy this morning and don't have any more time to post much.<P>My life is just a tad unmanageable today! <BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Thank you again for your replies; okay, I am awake now, I think!<P>We have gotten into such a fight now over the PC, he went and erased the password off the server so I couldn't get on here and discuss this with you. (Don't go telling your little internet friends all kinds of wild stories.) He is so obviously ashamed, but this doesn't stop him. He doesn't know, however, that I have the password. I also have an account from work. This has gotten really insane.<P>So what I gather from your counsel is that I let him know, somehow, that I accept him looking at porn in the home and that way he feels more at ease to discuss it, rather than hide it?<P>This is all I ask, is that he be open with me. I have told him all along is that I will forgive if he will be honest. I think that in the past, I have reacted rationally, more or less (meaning, when I found out about Miss Kitty.) I thought that I was being a safe place for him to be honest. All I have done is ask quesions--hoping that they will be resolved with honesty. It came to a head the other night when I couldn't take the lies any more. (Forget the fact that he has a record of cheating for the last three years, he knows that I don't like porn, it fosters infidelity.)<P>I think the person that he is actually lying to is himself. He doesn't want to hear himself saying the words "I am a sex addict." He wants to continue seeing himself as a great noble flawless character.<P>Well, I gotta book. Time to open up the spy program and erase all that I have written here and delete the cache so he won't know I have been on here. Isn't this a game?

Having gone through this myself, I can say it was the deceit that hurt worse than the porn use. Yes, the porn use hurt too but it has been so hard trying to renew trust in our relationship. I had downloaded the Spector Program because I was spending so much time trying to figure out what he was doing. You can learn more about cyberaffairs here <A HREF="http://www.bustedyouonline.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.bustedyouonline.com</A> and you can also download the Spector or eBlaster software from this site. <P>He's not using porn anymore, at least not at home, but I am still having trouble with trusting him. He's been acting boorish like he was when he was chatting and viewing porn. I don't trust him, he doesn't trust me because I am "spying" on him.<P>My husband used to do the same thing with the door to alert him to my approach. I feel hopeless too. I don't know how to dig out of this hole we are in when it seems I am the one plan A'ing my butt off as he continues in taker mode.<P>I suppose I haven't offered much advice but I just wanted you to know that you aren't alone in your feelings. I do not think that some people, men and women here at MB,understand how the deceit and porn use are so offensive to us. I am so thankful for the few people, men and women,who post here at MB to let us know we are not alone and are justified in feeling replaced, hurt, frustrated, shameful, distrustful when a spouse uses porn and lies about it.<P>