Have been reading posts for some time now. It's an amazing place but it's time now to give/receive it's fullest benefit, which is the incredible support. Here goes:<P>I am the BS---2nd time. First A was 10yrs. ago shortly after birth of last child. Would say that neither of us dealt with that one. WS wanted "to just get over it" and so we did or so it seemed. Wished I knew then what I know now, this one has been devastating.<P>I'm a SAHM and have been since first child born<BR>Married 26yrs/4 children 22/17/15/10<BR>d-day Jul00. <BR>Upon discovery told H would not go through it again unless we got counseling. After A#1 I did not tell many people and basically withdrew in life. H probably felt guilty, and did the best he could making up to me, but we never addressed any issues. Didn't really even know what hit us, I'm sure. We rarely spoke of it, but I lived and wore my pain and so when ever an opportunity presented itself I would turn conversations back to that period in order "to teach". <P>I see this only now and realize it just added to our unhappiness. Funny thing is, I thought just I was unhappy, and doing good job hiding it and just living as best I could. I didn't realize he was unhappy. I discovered the A#2 only after pressing because that little voice inside is saying something isn't right. We had just gone on a great vacation for our 25th with some friends. Infact, because it was our 25th, everywhere we went, people commented on what a happy perfect couple we were. Even we (but now I know it was just me) believed it.<P>Ow works with H. H travels often for business, and has many evening business dinner/late nights. It was easy for him and still is.<P>Kids never knew about A#1 but the 3 oldest know about this one. Frankly, I couldn't be going through this without their support. They are boys and are not happy with Dad. One has had to have counseling.<P>I have been crushed by this A. At first, I was strong and calling all the shots ie. we will do counseling, we will not "just get over it", but things got worse for me as time went on because he is much more emotionally involved then before, and this thing is not going away. <P>I have suffered from depression and anxiety and tried 4 different medications that made me sick and so made matters worse. So, I just go on now as best I can, with those obbsessive voices in my head 24/7. It's hard to get any space from all this worry. I have found it hard enough to take care of my family. Can't seem get myself motivated/interested in the things I use to like. How can I enjoy things when my life is so messy.<P>But, I have found love and strength I didn't even know I had. So mostly when we are together, we are the happy couple/family we always were. At least that's how it looks but that is not what is really happening. I insticntively knew I did not want to run him off with the "how could you do this to us again's". So from the beginning I have been loving/understanding, but maybe too much so, since this is a natural tendency for me. But also I had been visibly emtional/clingy/needy/ and desparate to keep us together. I later learned was not helping so, now I don't show it, but it's there inside. This is the hardest part right now for me right now, outside showing one things inside feeling something else. <P>But just when I think I can't take any more, I do. And I have this site to thank for that. But now I must do more then just read and need a little more personal encouragement. It gets so confusing, are you doing enough, are you doing too much. Are you helping or hurting? Are you saying the right thing or the wrong thing? Should you keep at it, should you quit, will it ever be over? Who the heck am I and where did this wonderful life I thought I had go?<P><BR>I know I am rambling, first timer you know, have to spill my guts, but I want to wind down and say where I've gone from d-day to now.<P>After couple of months of lying after d-day, I gave an ultimatium to which he responds (after checking with her first and she does not want to break up our family)he wants to work on M. We start MC in Sept. and both of us do IC. MC was polite, he would not really open up, felt critized if he did, felt he was the bad guy and no one wanted to hear his side and about all he could say was he didn't know what he wanted. This is when I started to go down, because I realized it was not going away. The only thing that impoved for us was SF. This was a major EN for him.In March he lied about a business trip and was caught spending the night with OW. He ended MC at that point. We both continued IC and I found/read Harley's SAA around this time on my own. <P>After getting caught in March, I really felt he should move out and so did his counselor. I didn't want to be the one to force it though, because I felt he would just give up and say I kicked him out. It became the worst time we had had. He was angry and I was a mess. Around Easter I couldn't take the day to day living and told him it was time to go. He thought about it but couldn't/wouldn't move. We had some trips that had been planned a year before in May and decided to take them. Just him and me. And they were great. I pressed because things were feeling good, but no commitment or anything from him. He withdrew. Talking has been the hardest thing. He would not talk about anything.<P>I found this site sometime around June and took steps to impliment Plan A. OW is going through a D and had been separated when A began. Apparently after March he again wanted to know if they had a future, and she said no, again, doesn't want to break up our family. I think from then till now there was little contact.<P>But it has started to some degree again. You can just feel it. <P>The hardest part is not knowing where the M stands and where you are going. But I have learned more in a couple of months from this site, then I ever did with all the months of counseling. <P>H is still fence sitting, but for now, I am no longer pressing. The one year mark has passed so that's what makes this all so hard. I am so weary and so sick of trying, but lately I am trying to convince myself that because I didn't have the right tools (MB principles) couldn't I hang in there long enough to try this. I felt was doing a pretty good Plan A and I have felt better. I had been full of fear and doing all those controlling things BS's do like snooping and pushing too hard when things looked good. I have backed off and noticed H seemed to be responding better to me. But mostly since SF is greatly improved he is much happier and that's always what worries me. The cake and eat it too syndrome.<P>Infact just last week I had been reading all the Plan B things I could because I was convinced she's back in the picture. I obbessed for days about what to do. It seems I can never bring up anything to do with our relationship and where is it going without major LBing. So I was convinced why try. But this weekend I took a chance and began to talk and he finally opened up some. Prior to this,if I asked him to be honest, my emtional reaction scared him away, and he could no longer stand it if I mentioned I needed to talk.<P>I told him that I always want him to be honest with me, but truthfully I am not honest with him. I am hiding what I am truly feeling. I am acting like I am fine but I am not. I told him things like whenever things felt good I thought we were better and I would need to know that and would push you to recommit to this marriage. When you would let me know you were on the fence or still have feelings for her, I did not understand how things were from your side and would be hurt by your honesty. I now realize that your love for this women is real. She works with you. You will see her. But things are better between us in many ways and you have acknowledged some of those changes I have made. It is clear that you are truly struggling/conflicted and living your own h---. I have a feeling that you have been in contact with her.-----------------This was a huge step for me because I didn't have an "emtional" outburst, or make demands and judgements. And surprise, surprise, HE OPENED UP. <P>Yes, he has been talking to her and had lunch. I think it's been a little more then that,but I'm just guessing, and since what I got from him was a miracle I wasn't going to blow it. I told him that as much as I now understand this struggle, I will not share him. That he must be honest with me and tell me when they are together. So I felt his options were if he stays he has to be honest that I can't ask for a commitment right now but I would like honesty, or go but that I would have no contact with him. He felt this was a bit drastic. No contact!!!!!!Since he handles the finances, who would pay the bills, and take care of the other things he does, too hard on the kids and the extended family would be upset.(or mad at him to use his words) They all know what's going on and he knows they're all upset with him anyways but no one has ever talked to him about it. But I guess if he was no longer living here there would really be something to face in his mind. (These maybe are things he never really thought about before? Hard to believe)<P>So that's it. I felt I was in limbo for months. Just trying to be happy on the outside, dying with fear and worrying on the inside. No real direction, just being nice to each other, and avoiding anything confrontaional. Felt alot like life before affairs. But in this case we are in the middle of something big because it's been clear since March he still loves this women, but comes home and acts like everything is fine. Meanwhile there is business trips, nights out for business, and I am left here holding my family together wondering what's happeing. <P>Sorry for the length of this, hopefully someone made it to the end, and can give me a little insight. Where to from here to keep things open and moving forward. I do not want to slip back into limbo. It seems I have to be first to iniciate anything. So how do I tread. How can I safely ask about contact without it sounding like I've been waiting for him to report back to me?<P>There is a part of me that believes (mostly because I have yet to see a post to the contrary) that this will not work unless he moves out and truly experiences life without me/us/family. He has not acknowledged any pain/shown any remorse/ or really taken responisiblity for anything. Even with her, he did not go looking for this, it just happened. Whenever the subject of moving out came up, (only from me, he has never once brought it up) he would go to her to see if they had a future. He still sees her as perfect, a nice person, someone with values and doesn't want to break up a family!<P>Glad to be here and finally be visible. <BR>

Wow, so sorry you're going through this. I guess what everyone on here keeps saying is, do you still love him? Are you in danger of losing your love for him? I can't help you much, as you read my post and replied earlier. I honestly don't know if I'm hanging in right now because I still love him and believe our marriage can work, of if it's because I'm so damn insecure and afraid to be on my own. I'm very confused about that. I wasn't happy before my H's affair, as he has never made me feel like I was that important to him (i.e., his friends, family, boat, truck, all came before me). I'm sorry I'm not much help. It really has to be up to all of us to decide whether we can keep Plan A'ing without losing all love for our spouses. I will say a prayer for you.

I'll be the first to say it....Plan A, Plan A, Plan A. It will work for you as it has for me. But you must remember that Plan A is ALL ABOUT YOU. Not about changing your husband or making him do anything.<P> I am very sorry for your pain. The coaster ride will get better I promise. So long as you work on you. <P> By the way...WELCOME to MB. You will feel better just by being out of lurk mode and posting. <P> Sorry I'm not much help. But there are others who will be able to better inform you.<P> Keep on posting.<P>

To myownme: Have been on here for hours because it took so long to write that novel I posted but want to say thanks for responding and by what you said we have alot in common. I too am not sure about the holding on thing I think I was afraid of being on my own too, but I now know how much I truly love this man and the reasons I do. Though I might have to be alone one day because he never gets it, I will be afraid but know if you have strength to handle this you can handle anything. They can't. They should be very afraid of what they're life will be like, but I guess they can't think that far ahead. Ditto on the unhappy before affair, some of it my own doing by being just like him, never expressing those feelings! (feeling unimportant, 2nd to his career etc.) But what I see now is when I withdrew becasue I was afraid of telling how I feel, he took that as me not caring, and so it was a vicious circle I guess. You are wrong, you were a great help. Thanks<P>to:jadmc1 You too were of great help. Thanks for the encouraging words. I will keep Plan Aing!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi 4areason:<P>I can see that you and I made a common mistake...we took them back when something was definately wrong in the marriage and never made them accountable for their mistake.<BR>Why? Because we had been dealt such a blow to our world that we quickly wanted to smooth over the difficulty and move on....wrong!!!! Should have faced the problems then...and maybe there wouldn't have been a second time.<P>I'm guilty....but please show me some mercy...I know not what I do....without MB....this second time I have been better prepared. No pleading, no weeping (OK...not a lot), LBing to a minimum, kicked his b*** out and let her have him....Oh, I planned A...nice to him...tried to fill his EN where I could...but basically let him free (per Dr. Dobson...if you haven't read him, do so) and let him know that there is an end to patience....and he had reached mine.<P>So while he's out doing his thing.....I've worked on me...freedom for him has also been freedom for me...not other men...but real life...life created by me...for me. Oh, OW has been in and out of the picture...and he has wanted to come home...but this time it will not be until I know he is sincere about no further contact with her...it's been a long year but it is finally beginning to pay off...I am now beginning to hear the words that I need to hear....and when actions begin to match the words then it may be time for recovery. <P>This true was a real-love affair...a true meeting of soulmates....Oh, how that has changed. He's saying now "If only I could get rid of her". I'm not quite stupid enough to believe that...but I think the general sentiment is the same....and the drift of his feelings is the same.<P>Now...what does this all mean to you....Well, having done this to you once and being taken back into the fold...it made it easier the next time....to have the affair...not to accept it....and I expect it thinks the result will be the same if he should decide that he wants the marriage (or rather OW decides he does)...that you'll once again take him back...ask no questions...just be grateful for his return again. <P>Unless you want this to be a recurring problem for you, please try to stop this now...you need to set some boundaries this time...and mean them. If he stays then things have to change...a new beginning for the marriage...based I hope on MB principles...or he needs to leave....and don't back down. This will be hard but better for all in the long run. If he really cannot be committed to the marriage then this will be easier on you then to continue to go through this again and again.<P>If he leaves then he would probably choose the option of having OW in his life...but you and the family will still be there in his head...and as long as you continue to provide the safe haven for him (in the event he is finally able to give up OW and recommit to marriage) then he will not be able to move forward and eventually the affair will die a natural death.<P>No one ever believes this but this time of being by myself...surviving on my own (although not financially as we own a business together)...has been a blessing...I am so much stronger and freer now...and I sorry...but enjoying my life...that at times I wonder if I really want him back in my life at all....and I still love him very much...but face it he has been a "pain-in-the-a**" in the last few years and he needs to do a lot of changing himself to be good enough for me.<P>So look inside yourself...decide what you need for you...Plan A if that's what you decide you want to do...Plan B if that's all you can do...but it's time for you to do for you...and if he wants to come back for another ride then he will know what the cost of the ticket is.<P>Faye

Dear 4areason,<P>First of all what needs to be clarified is that when the WS says the OW is sending them back because they don't want to break up the family, that is a lie. Those words are undone when the intiate contact of any sort. Oh yes, I was suppose to believe that one. Let's see how about the 2 times OW claimed to be pregnant, when OW said (recently) 'you have me who else do you need', 'your son will get over it', etc. Still think that the OW doesn't want to break up your family? If your H believes that, I have some prime 'volcano land' in Hawaii to sell him. Can't build anything on it for the next 100 years but just think of the resale value? Right, after you are dead!!!! <P>That is the value of OWs words about sending him back to his family. Totally worthless. <P>Now put that aside, ask your H who's needs are more important now, OW or yours. If both were in a car accident and he could only help one, which one would it be? Be prepared the answer may not be pretty. But it may help you see where his mind is. This in turn will help you see where you need to go. It could be a wake up call for him or make him angry that he has to admit to anything. Many WSs would rather keep mum than look dumb. You know? They think we are some kind of bimbo that can't see what they are doing. <P>But being here at MB our eyes are more open and are ears are attuned to their words and actions in some cases better than theirs are. Of course, they don't like being exposed, but hey, the deed has been done, don't hide it Mr or Ms. WS, just fess up, fix it and move on. Pretending nothing happened or blaming the wrong party just prolongs the pain. <P>Does this info help? You probably know all this already. Just a friendly reminder. If you get a chance go and read Buffy's last post about the interview with Dr Glass, it was an eye opener for me. (thanks Buffy) <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited August 14, 2001).]

Buffy: Thanks responding. Your insight is helpful, and you are right, it's about what I want to do for me now. I have a bit to go to gain more strength I believe, but I am getting there.<P>Orchid: Thanks for your words too. You and I both know the OW's "concern!!?" about breadking up our family is only believed by OW and H.<P>I did go back and read Buffy's post on Dr. Glass. I have read that article before and can definately relate with that and with all those people who posted. I too always gave too much. And so I agree that Plan A is sort of easy for me. The difference in me now is I would give and give but then get hugely resentful toward my H and my kids. Then I would rant and rave about all I do. Thinking, and thinking about the why's of all this have pointed this out to me. That ranting and raving was killing us. Plan A seems to be teaching me to do things (only as much as I can handle and not try to do it all) and do them lovingly not resentfully. So I don't know where my marriage is going at the moment but I want to be a better me.<P>I did give way too much and I guess the more I would give my H would take. But it wasn't always that way. I believe, he believes, he too gave and gave and didn't get enough in return. Just like I read on someone's post they never did good enough, or fast enough, or when they did something it as taken for granted. Before you know it it's a viscious cycle.<P>Anyways the point is I'm seeing alot of things in a whole new light, from both our sides. I know this happened to me twice, and I get worried as Buffy points out, that maybe I am enabling him. But I have love left in me, and I want to keep working at this for a bit more, sticking to Plan A. <P>Call me crazy????? I also have 4 kids, and 3 of them are teenagers and learning how to follow Plan A can only help there also.<P>Buffy's thread actually prompted a few more questions then it answered about Plan A in terms of are we still doing too much. I guess I not familiar with the stories of some of the posters and where they are now in their situations. Can anyone answer? I wondered if some of those relationships are still living together and still Plan Aing and how it's going?

Hi 4areason,<P>You are doing good. You are learning that while you may be frustrated how to turn that into something productive. Not all can or have learned this quickly. Here is more info that may help you. It is a more detailed description of plan A. <P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html</A> <P><BR>Here is the info on plan b:<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000177.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000177.html</A> <P>Please understand the difference between the 2 plans. If you can schedule a counseling session with either Jennifer or Steve, they will be able to clarify it further. In some cases, they even help those (that are at the stage) to write a letter regarding plan A or B to their WS. <P>Both plans are designed to help the BS and WS. However, receipt of the help by the WS does depend on their attitude. I used to hate that word as a child but it so important in life. One's attitude can make or break a family. <P>Hope this info helps. <P>L. <P><BR>