I just got back from an overnighter...he called me several times while I was gone...no real reason...sounded like 'just talking' calls...<P>I get home and there is a number in the redial I don't recognize...I call it...there is a special message to H...a nice song about "falling, falling in love again..." from an eighteen-year-old that I knew he was in contact with...<P>I look over cell bill again...I guess just to torture myself...and there are 90+ phone calls to OW and 15+ phone calls to young-un...an untold # of incoming calls...<P>I have erased two messages to our home phone from the young-un...<P>I don't know what kind of help I need...I called and left two stupid messages on the young=un's phone...something about being involved with an over 40 year old man with a wife, three kids and an OW...is she getting in line?<P>WHAT ARE WE ALL THINKING? WHAT THE H3** has my life come to? I feel like I am in some dumb soap opera for which I don't have the script...<P>Will someone please clue me in? What are my cues? What are my lines? Where am I supposed to be? Am I in this scene or the next? <P>Am I being written off the show?<P>Cali

It looks like it's another REALLY slow weekend here... sigh! Isn't that always the case when you need someone to talk to? <P>Obviously contact is still going on. Your H is sitting on the fence eating his cake.. and loving every minute of it! (S.O.B.!!).<P>That has been his choice. It is beyond your control. All you can do is control your own actions and reactions. <P>I know you've been putting your heart and soul into your Plan A, and your H has really come around some. But obviously not enough.<P>Now. What are you going to do to protect you, your sanity, and your kids? IMO, your H has had ample opportunity to see what he's got and may not have for long. I'm starting to think that he's not taking you seriously.<P>You can not mention any of this to him, continue with your plan A for a few more weeks, and then on to plan B (if you need to by then). <P>What do you think you should do???<P>Oh, and btw... ((((((((((( Cali )))))))))))<P>Karen<P><BR>

Cali......what on Earth is possessing this man's brain? It sounds to me that your Plan A is benefiting him all too well and not you. It sounds like a solid Plan B is in order so that you can disassociate yourself from the pain that he is creating in your life. Stop dwelling on him and his numerous problems and think about what is good for you. <BR>Stay strong for yourself and your wonderful children. Focus on you for a change. You deserve to be selfish....and with good reason.<P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B>

Cali I'm sorry. That B******! You know we put our hearts and soul into trying to plan A we give our WS the benefit of the doubt and then before you know it we get slapped in the face again. I agree with Topie you can't mention this to him. Just play it cool. I know easier said than done. An 18 yr old. What the h*** is he thinking. Obviously he isn't. Men and their egos (sorry not all men). What are you going to do? Continue with plan A or have you had enough? Where is H tonight? I'm here if you need to talk. Hugs and prayers to you.<BR>C

Cali,<BR>I am so sorry to hear of his latest episode. I just don't understand how they can hurt the one they are supposed to love so very bad.<P>Their behavior is beyond reason....please hang in there and know you are in our prayers. I will be thinking of you and your kids. Be tough!!!

Aside from the what the heck is he thinking in general...why did she get your home phone number? Duh? I know that there have been times when I have called over there and one of the boys has answered the phone and I find myself irritated that yet another unexplainable female is put in contact with them, whether or not one actually answered the phone that day, that it was/is possible. Oh, wait, I know...it's that there is a possiblility that they don't have enough upheaval in their little lives already, right? Yes, that explains it. I understand now that he was only considering the best interests of his family. <P>You have an infinite amount of patience that I just don't have, sweetie. I can't even post what I think I would have done at this point, afraid it would rival Hannibal, though. ~wicked evil grin~ <P>I won't see you tomorrow. My hubby working, and I was considering going anyway, but I'm afraid at this point that I'd kneecap your man.

No real words of wisdom here. You know I've been a big supporter of the whole situation, trying to just keep out of it and let it work itself out, while supporting you at the same time. Having seen the situation, I just figured that both sides made contributions to the bad, and in time, well. . . Both sides would make contributions to the good, and it would all even out and work out in the end. However, I will now leave you with this:<P>Just five simple letters, to save your sanity: P L A N B<P>------------------<BR>I choose to hold hands, rather than point fingers.

(Oh, yeah. .. Lest anyone get the wrong idea) <BR>The above advice is not a product of hate, or of spitefulness, or even of wanting for you to "punish him." This advice comes simply from the realization that not only is he not acting like a mature person, but he isn't even bothering to TRY to act like a mature person.<BR>You do not deserve this. <BR>More importantly, until he starts acting like an adult, rather than a fifteen year old who is "cheating" on his "girlfriend" by talking to someone other girl on the phone--well, <BR>HE DOES NOT DESERVE YOU. <P>BTW, contrary to the signature on my above post, I am no longer just holding your hand. I am also pointing fingers--and it's no hard guess where they're aimed. <BR>People who are "lost" need help and time to find their way home. He's had both, and is welcome to both, and deserves both. <BR>However, now he's just acting poorly. People who encourage young children (read, eighteen year old girls) to call them, and allow said children the fantasy of thinking that they are in love with a married, forty year old man with REAL children of his own. . . Well, those kind of people deserve all sorts of finger pointing. <BR>That's not lost anymore. That's ill. <BR>People who allow eighteen year old girls to call their home, thus blatantly flaunting said child in front of their already hurt wife, and three REAL children--well, in MY world, they'd get worse than finger pointing. I won't even bother to go there, though. <BR>I should just leave now, as I'm most likely sounding like an incoherent idiot. (I'm not, I'm simply shaking my head in wonderment at the complete lack of morals or even basic humanity or RESPECT! in a seemingly decent person.)<BR>Sorry sis--at this point, I feel he's just taking advantage of the situation he's already created, in order to get his rocks off a few more times before deciding to come back to the nest. See, this way, once he's made his mind to stay, and you've taken him back, you lose the right to be hurt about it, or say anything to him about it in the future. He can just push it all off on that time he had a "mid-life crisis, good thing that passed huh sweetie?" <BR>Do what you like. It's all up to you, and I'll still support you, whatever you decide to do. But IMO, this is more telling than the whole affair situation. This goes right to the core of what kind of person he is or isn't. Is this what you truly want? Is this the kind of morality that would truly make you happy in the future? Great for the kids to learn from this, isn't it.<BR>Ask yourself some questions, and please open your ears to yourself--listen to the answers. This is important.

Cali:<P>Well, in a typical soap, it would appear that you are being written out of the script.<P>But not to worry: there is the <I>other</I> script. Plan B. Forthwith.<P>You then control a new show. Either he comes "crawling back" (as the soaps/Hollywood like to depict) and amends his ways forever. Or Cali, strikes out on her own; finds out she is really a special lady, meets some handsome man (in the soaps and Hollywood, conveniently waiting in the wings) ... and they live happily ever after.<P>Alas, it isn't that simple.<P>But you do dictate how you are scripting your role in all this. You know the script, you've seen it on here often enough. Plan B. No excuses, no prevarications ... as the commercial says ... just do it.<P>And then, if the shoe fits ... wear it <smile> ... it worked for Cinderella, after all.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

well marsha, not much I can say that others haven't. I alluded to this kind of behaviour way back in the beginning, I didn't like the vibes your H sends out. Is one thing to be a conflict avoider, and let a strong spouse get out of hand by being passive, happens all the time. And maybe even understandable that he just finally had to face himself and honesty admit he really doesn't want to be married, but acted on it kinda selfishly....but in my world, when behaviour crosses over into serial affairs, the person ceases to be marriage material, and is most likely not salvageable, even if they play the part for awhile. I'd cut em loose, starting with plan b, leading to divorce, and if they ask for reconcilliation it comes at a set price.... full scale counselling (and do your homework), with extraordinary precautions....and one misstep, you are gone. Time for tough love marsha. You can always love em, but you don't have to be married to him.

He came home right after I posted and caught me crying...I tried to white 'lie' my way out of it and tell him it was allergies from being in the mountains, but he didn't buy it...so I told him what was bothering me.<P>I said I didn't appreciate, nor feel comfortable with the 90+ calls to OW or the 15+ calls to young-un. I didn't like 'family' money going to pay for them.<P>He asked and now what...I said that is up to you...as you have already indicated the ONE thing I have been having trouble with is the 'control' issue...so I obviously can't tell you to stop...just tell you I don't like it...and nor would you if the shoe was on the other foot. (he agreed.)<P>He seemed surprised at my 'conclusion' about young-un...so I dialed the number to her and let him listen to said message that I heard...I asked if had 'been' with her and he said "an eighteen year-old...I'm not crazy or stupid." Well, a year ago I would have agreed with him and could have inserted "married" woman...but he has proven me wrong there too...<P>Boy...I forgot my sisters were still 'watching' out for me here...LibbyDoe and HoldingHerHand...I know I am seeming more than reasonable about this...and I think your right...I've been waiting 12 years for him to grow-up...he's hasn't wanted to really be married for 12 years and so I feel that he hasn't really put in his best effort...so here we are impasse....<P>The 'special' message to him upset me more than anything...I felt like he needed to realize that he was leading on an impressionable young girl...and if he wasn't leading her on...he needed to say it out loud to realize exactly where he was headed with this...<P>"she listens to me...I just talk to her..." is the same thing he said/says about OW...I just counter with...I would love for you to talk to me...I can't promise to agree, but I am getting better at listening....<P>Thanks for all your responses...I am getting better with the 'radical honesty' stuff...it parallels with my "Make No Assumptions" agreement...where you have the courage to ask the really tough questions...<P>Our arguments are less bitter and more productive...so we'll see...<P>THANK YOU....THANK YOU....THANK YOU....<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

<B>Cali</B> ~<P>I wanted to respond to you last night but my H stole my keyboard for his computer! I was doomed to lurking and reading and no way to type back, now thats torture!! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>WHAT ARE WE ALL THINKING? WHAT THE H3** has my life come to? I feel like I am in some dumb soap opera for which I don't have the script...<P>Will someone please clue me in? What are my cues? What are my lines? Where am I supposed to be? Am I in this scene or the next? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You aren't a victim. You know what your H is doing and continues to do. And you are choosing to stay in this. (Please do NOT read into my words that you should be choosing otherwise) He is doing what he always does, and you are running yourself ragged trying to "force" him into change. It's pretty clear from your need to know what your "part" is in insane sick dance going on here that you are trying to force a solution, force your H to wakeup, growup and act like a mature married man. Your need to know what your lines, where you are supposed to be...just show a need (understandably) to try to control the insanity that he has brought into your marriage.<P>One of the biggest misconceptions I think we see on this board is that Plan A will somehow convince the WS to stop the affair and come back to the marriage.<P>Plan A won't.<P>Plan A is for you. By the time I was ready to divorce my H a second time, I had been in a real Plan A for several months and found that my confidence and self-esteem were returning. Why? Because I proved to myself that I could fix what was wrong with me in our marriage, and that the problem was no longer my fault. <P>That was when I could walk away.<P>It wasn't until my H's affair was dying yet another natural death that he took a look at my past Plan A and felt encouraged to come home and be married to me.<P>No one can tell you what your cues are in this dance!!!<P>But I have a question for you....are you going to keep doing what you have always done....and getting what you always got...or are your next "dance" moves going to be something different?<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha - this is not a soap opera, or the Brady Bunch - it's closer to Saturday Night Live (sorry snl). He is SOOOOOO far up in orbit that it may help you to look at it as nothing BUT absurd - to the point of being comical.<P>Maybe you can provide OW and young-un with each other's phone numbers?<P>I think the other above have provided good responses. Separation with Plan B may be in order for YOU. YOU write the end of this episode and let the comics work on the next one.<P>WAT

Dearest Cali,<P>I am so sorry I wasn't there for you last night. I want to comfort you, but know no one can really give you comfort. You are in an unbearable situation.<P>Mid-life crisis is real. I have been there and my H has been there. You become someone else. You run away from responsibility and become an irresponsible, incredibly selfish teenager again. You are in the process of accepting yourself as an adult, accepting your life as it is, not as you may have believed it would be. You are facing that you are growing older and will not always be young. You are in the process of resolving unresolved conflicts from the past that you may not even recognize exist. Believe me, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. IT IS HIS PROBLEM.<P>Do you remember what it was like to be a teenager? Do you remember how you resisted your parents' control? Do you also remember that when your parents set limits, although you may have initially resisted, you saw, in time, that those limits were set for your own good and with love? Do you remember that when you felt out of control, you actually wanted your parents to step in put order into your life?<P>If your children were destroying themselves, what would you do? Your H is destroying himself. What will you do?<P>When I stopped accepting my H's abuse, the abuse stopped. When I stopped accepting my H's daily contact with the witch, he finally resolved the situation. When I stopped accepting a one-sided marriage, my H began to give.<P>It is very difficult to convince a teenager, through words, that there is any negative consequence for bad behavior. A teenager may logically "know" that their behavior is wrong, but will continue that behavior until they "feel" a consequence.<P>Make your H feel the consequence of his actions, not just through your words and tears, but by showing him what he is losing. Show him what his life will be like without you. IF HE COMES CRAWLING BACK, INSIST THAT HE HAVE COUNSELING TO DISCOVER AND RESOLVE HIS PROBLEMS.<P>I know, easier said then done. I had to hit bottom before I could set limits. My MC kept telling me: "You are making it awfully easy for him." But, I kept convincing myself that things were improving (and they were). However, he continued to sit on the fence until I told him, with love, that I could not continue sharing him with someone else. By that time, the attachment had long been only emotional. However, I could not accept her in our lives.<P>Because I did not set boundaries sooner, I almost destroyed myself. DON'T LET HIM DESTROY YOU.<P>You are obviously an incredibly intelligent and loving person. You are worthy and deserving of love. Are you ready to find the love you deserve? If your H is worthy of you, he will wake up. If he is not worthy of you, you will find someone who is.<P>We hate seeing you abused, so of course we will tell you to Plan B. However, only you will know when you are ready. Follow your heart, sweet Cali.<P>Love,<P>Julie <P>

Cali,<P>{{{{{{{hug}}}}}}}<P>Your H is taking advantage of your very good Plan A. You becoming a better person and it seems he likes it. But at the same time he does not want to give up this game. I don’t know what he is getting out of it… ego stroking? Revenge on you? Probably those and many other things. So now he has the best of both worlds.<P>But this is not about him. It is about YOU and your children. You have done a very good plan A. But as you have learned, you can only control your own behavior. I too believe that it is time for Plan B though I know that the decision is yours. I hate to see what his actions are doing to you and your children.<P>I have noticed that even though your H’s actions still upset you, your love for him is dwindling. How could it not? His love bank with you must be terribly overdrawn. But you keep plugging away. Why? You have probably asked yourself that question a zillion times. Why would you keep going on and on? Part of it is probably the Pavlov affect. Intermittent, erratic reinforcement is stronger then constant. Remember that the time to go to Plan B is when you can no longer take any more hurt. At that point you need to protect whatever little bit of love you have for him. <P>You know that anyone who has been on MB very long has learned to not advise people to go to Plan B lightly. Usually when someone gives that advice a several others will chime in and advise them to Plan A more, Plan A harder. They will even chastise the person giving the advice to go to Plan B. I”ve caught heck for it myself before (lol). But you may notice that there is not anyone here saying anything other then take care of yourself, your children and that Plan B may be your only choice right now.<P>You know, it might not be a bad idea to give the 18 & OW eachother's phone numbers. Though it might be sweet revenge, the real purpose that I see is to help the 18 year old realize what she is being sucked into. Though you really owe her nothing, she is still a child and needs some protection. <P>Bless you,<P>Z <BR>

Dear Cali,<P>I completely agree with Zorweb. My MC told me that random reinforcement was indeed the strongest - like gambling - losing and losing and losing, because once in awhile you will hit the jackpot. I actually told my H once that he was exactly like a game of golf. There were enough good shots among all the bad to keep me coming back for more.<P>Your H will continue this game until you decide you will no longer play. You can stop your pain by taking control of your life.<P>My thoughts and prayers are with you and your children.<P>Julie

Cali,<P> ? What are you so afraid of(or afraid of letting go of) that you will tolerate continual emotional abuse? There is something that you fear that keeps you focused on him and what he is dealing with, and analyzing (overanalyzing) every minute detail of his behavior, looking for crumbs of evidence that he's about to make the BIG change, instead of focusing on the fact that you are the one in control of your life. You're miserable, beaten up emotionally, yet you keep going back for more. Do you not want to be in control of your life? Forget the fact that he's your husband, he's only your husband legally, for he's refusing to perform that role. He's broken his vows and been a selfish [censored].......for a long time now. You don't have a marriage right now. It takes two commited individuals to have a marriage. You have a marriage in name only. So what good is it? What keeps you from discarding the illusion of a marriage you have now? <P>What you have right now cannot be repaired. The truth is, it has been destroyed. H is still stomping around on top of the rubble trying to grind the debris into smaller and smaller pieces. He's content just doing THAT! What kind of a marriage is that? Is it a marriage worth having? To be "married" you two will have to start over and REBUILD! HE HAS TO WANT AND CONSENT TO THAT. End of story. <P>Now either you consent to being repeatedly stepped on or you pick yourself up and move in a different direction away from the abuse. THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE. Those are the only two choices you have.<P>Your Plan A is not making him want to rebuild. That is no surprise. Plan A is not supposed to make WS do ANYTHING! It is not intended to make WS realize what they are missing or giving up.It's designed to make you the more attractive option. It's for you. You make you better and stronger, but you've been using it hoping it will have some magic power it was never designed for. Plan B is where the power lies. In his self indulgent, self centered, selfish mode he is not going to change unless there is a painful consequence. That's just the hard facts of human behavior.Nothing to lose, why bother to change. Obviously, he has no internal motivation whatsoever. The motivation is going to have to come from outside sources. <P>That is where you have the power to change things. You have no power to change anything but you in plan A. YOU'VE DONE THAT NOW! You're still stuck in the same place despite the changes you've made (again no surprise here!). You've got to do something different now, unless it's perfectly ok with you to continue to live this way. You don't sound like it's perfectly ok, but your sure not doing anything to make your life better either.<P>It's hard to let go when you have no guarantee that you'll end up still married in the end. It's painful to let go of a marriage and all of our hopes and dreams and hard work you've put into it over the years. But to be married means to have a commited partner. You don't have a partner now Cali. Focusing on that fact will make it easier to let go.<P>Another thing. We have no power to really change things (except by making a new life for ourselves)in Plan B. Only God can do that Cali.I swear part of God's purpose in my H's affair was to hit me upside the head with a 2x4 to make me realize that I wasn't in control of anything.I had stopped letting God be in control of my life. I had stopped listening to Him and gone on doing things my own way, thinking I knew what was best. The affair brought me to my knees figuratively and literally. When I surrendered it all to God, stopped and listened closely to Him, He used me in His plan to restructure my marriage. It had to be rebuilt on a solid foundation that included healthy boundaries and Him. <P>To rebuild a marriage on sandy ground (a H that is not fully commited, doesn't appreciate what he has in you as a wife, his gift from God and isn't mature enough to realize that a marriage isn't just about what he wants)is futile. It will fall again when times get tough and repeatedly cause you pain and strife in your life.<P>So Cali, you have two choices: to stay in a relationship that will bring you nothing but pain, or to cast off the old and make a new life for yourself, in hopes that, the consequence of living without you will be strong enough motivation for H to turn around and grow into a person who can be an active willing participant and partner in a union that takes continued hard work for the duration.<P>It's all up to you, H has absolutely nothing to do with it. <P>

You've all given me good, sound advice. Thank you. My script is up to me...The cues are there, I just refuse to accept them.<P>I keep looking for that BIG miracle...<P>Thank you. I have a lot to think about.<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali,<P>I guess I'll add my perspective and maybe you'll figure out where it fits in.<P>I don't think the script has changed. In fact, I'm not sure that there really is a script ... looks like improv to me.<P>I don't think he doing this on purpose, or with a plan. I don't even think he's conciously "using" your Plan A for his own gratification. (Notice I'm making lots of assumptions)<P>If he's really trapped in MLC (and I agree with newwomman about how real it is) a lot of this stuff is understandable. Notice I didn't say justifiable or even predictable. <P>He's not quite like a teenager. A teenager is learning how to make their own agreements for the first time and is not concerned with the consequences. In MLC (my perspective) you find yourself trapped by all your previous agreements, you see all the consequences and they paralyze you. You quit making choices, which also has its own consequences. You want the world to leave you alone. You want things to be different (easier?) magically, by themselves. <P>It's painful to get to this point in your life and wonder how much of it you actually CHOSE. It's scary to realize you have to start choosing, especially when the choices you make are really going to define who you are and maybe it's different than what you've shown to people all along.<P>You know this, because in your Plan A you've chosen the Cali you want to be. As you've said before, it was very difficult and no one was able to do it for you.<P>Your H has to do the same thing. It's clear that he hasn't chosen yet. That's how I interpret the young-un. She's involved because he hasn't chosen between you and OW. He sounds like he's unable to be honest with the young-un either (that would involve a decision, wouldn't it). Is he intentionally hurting lots of people?? Maybe not. But he is certainly AWARE that HE IS HURTING THEM.<P>He has to make these choices in order to be a whole person again (for the first time??). Have you, by chance, been letting him stay around to make things easier for him? I know that many say that Plan A too long is enabling --maybe it's really disabling by preventing decisions. <P>Are you afraid that Plan B will remove your biggest connection to him and without it you'll lose the rest of your love? <P>How you handled the confrontation with your H was probably the epitome of what Plan A should be. I don't think there's anything more you need to do to show him that the changes you've made are real. Heck, coworkers have noticed your changes as well. <P>Maybe, if you write your Plan B letter, in the process of writing it you'll find out whether you're ready or not.<P>Your H has given you excellent reasons why he needs to be in Plan B for his sake. Plan A is about you, maybe Plan B is actually about both of you.<P>Jeffers<BR>

Jeffers,<P>Boy, you really captured this much better than I did. MLC does paralyze. It makes you unable to make a choice. You know what's right, but are just unable to decide - unable to make any decision.<P>In one of the many, many, many books I have read, I understood one description of the struggle to decide the best. The author said that an A is ambivalence - being pulled in two directions by equally strong forces. Until the person involved decides which way to go, he or she will be unable to give fully to either person.<P>MLC is also all about ambivalence. It is about being pulled into true adulthood, being really responsible for yourself and your choices, and being pulled into the wish of being young and irresponsible again. <P>Cali, listen to Jeffers. His advice is right on target.<P>Love,<P>Julie