I have only been here a short time...compared to some of the long timers, but it feels like much of what I have learned has been lost lately. It seems when I first arrived that this was a very supportive place. People came seeking answers and help with questions. I have begun spending less and less time here lately. Partially, that is due to increased demands on my time at work, but greatly it is due to a mood and an air here that seems less and less supportive, and more adversarial. I have seen people come here for justifications and rationalizations. I have seen people come here and attack others, simply because their point of views are, anywhere from slightly to greatly, different. We used to share information, reach conclusions, help others plan modes of action...now we try to *WIN* and *be right*, we try to force our opinions and points of view on others...(IMO, probably much the way we tried to do it in our Marriages, as well). <P>The communication styles and respect for others, IMO, has deteriorated. I have begun posting less and less for the simple feeling of the mood in this place. For me, it began with the OLG thing, but has now come full circle. <P>They say, when something becomes bad for you, discontinue it. I guess I have begun discontinuing this. I hate the tension I feel here lately...maybe it's just me, but I tend to think not. I am not such a simpleton to think that I am talking about rah rah sessions and cheerleading, just for the sake of support. I feel everyone can improve themselves and change for their own betterment, but, I do feel less and less like the MB principles are followed. Again, my perceptions, but based on what I see and the tone of some of the posts, I believe it to be true.<P>I see the boards on recovery and just found out as being helpful for those that are on clear cut paths for themselves and their marriages...seeking answers and plans...but as for this board, it just feels as if it has taken on a different tone and role. <P>I guess I am just venting, but it seems that many of the people I admire, are really hurting. I just wish it was a tad more supportive, I guess. <P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams*<P>Trueheart

Hi trueheart...<P>I will admit to a certain adversarialness several weeks ago, before the forum was completely down...but I have opted not to post to those who get me stirred up...<P>I guess SnL is an exception...I think he and I play devil's advocate for one another...may be we should post a caveat at the beginning of our posts.<P>Some of my adversarialness came from the fact that many nonrepentant WSs were banding together and posting what I felt was against Marriage Builders views.<P>Otherwise, I do my best to be supportive and post that which supports Marriage Builders.<P>Cali

Hi Trueheart:<P>I have been on this board for over a year now and I have seen a lot of people come and go...OWs, A justify WSs, lots of hurting BSs, and I feel they are all welcome to express their opinions here. Sure there are negative posters (like SNL)...here to workout in their own minds what they have already decided to do...but he's here for a reason...he wants feedback...he wants to be convinced...but his belief is too strong...and there is no telling who the poster might be that one day might change his mind...let him see the light (although he doesn't think there is a light to be seen)...so we can't question the value of any contribution.<P>I would say for each negative post there are many, many positive postings...so it is important that those of us who value the MB principles continue to maintain our presence and keep offering the help that experience has shown us has the most likelyhood of having a good out come.<P>But even MB doesn't exist under a rock...we have to allow other opinions...and to allow them indicates the strength of the program...if there is truth in something then opposition will not cause it to fail...it only brings out the best in its supporters.<P>Faye

yes, perhaps I have fallen into this trap myself. Of course, from what I've heard, forums like these sort of go through phases.<P>Maybe we should spend less time philosophizing and more time with specific questions and sharing of MB principles to help each other.

Maybe if we all just ignore SNL and his ilk they will go away. I remember another WS just like SNL; besides being here to justify their affairs they also enjoyed all the attention they got even if it was negative. <BR>Eventually people figured out what he was all about and stopped responding to his posts and he faded away. <P>There is one good thing about SNL he makes you thank your lucky stars you are not married to him!

hmmmm kal, then maybe I have it all wrong, my wife should just dump me cause I am not marriage material? But you do make the point I keep harping on over and over, it does make a difference, a huge difference who you are married too. Some people I fit, some I don't, I wear the same face whereever I go, do not try to be other than I am, and some like me alot, some are ok, some put up with me, some are irritated by me, and some thank-God they are not married to me...... and that is as it should be IMO.

I've wondered if there was a change also. I don't read as many of the experienced posters here as I did, say 2-3 months ago.<P>On the lighter side, you've got to admit, there haven't been the sex related threads like there were a few months ago. When Slapnuts put up the thread about "is this how withdrawl feels" in the EN forum, well, let's just say since I hadn't read many of his more serious posts, I figured this was going the direction of, well, you know. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<P>But here's something interesting that Steve told me the other day. He said that I should probably schedule future counseling appointments more than a week ahead if I really want to be sure to lock in a particular date/time. I asked him why and he said that things really pick up for him in the fall. I took that to mean that requests for counseling appointments really go up in the fall compared to the summer. Go figure. Anyway, maybe it is a different season for the forum as well.<P>Whatever the reason, I am grateful that there are some out there willing to responding to my questions and concerns. Sorry I don't get to help others out as much. Sometimes I don't feel like I can give much advice since I still don't feel like we are in recovery yet. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<BR>SG

I notice the change too Trueheart.<BR>There is a overall lack of respect. And a lot of battling.<P>I know I don't feel like I am helping anyone anymore -- so I post pretty infrequently now. Plus whenever I do, it tends to be impersonal -- my point of view and opinions, but don't feel like sharing my life right now.<P>Everyone needs to stop being so judgemental and disrespectful. <P>SnL takes so much heat. None of you know anything of what its like to live with SnL. We see only a small part of who he really is.<BR>And he seems as committed to following the principals and seeking an honest answer to his situation as anyone else here.

SNL Do not twist my words to fit your sick little scenarios! FWIW I think your wife should divorce you; not because you don't "fit" but because you are a immature cruel abusive selfish man.<P>Pleeese Lexxy you and SNL are the most disrespectful and judgemental individuals here. SNL has been nothing but judgemental since his first post. Why is it when WS are being judgemental it's okay but for the BS it's not? Neither of you is trying to save your marriage so people are asking/ wondering why you are here? And that is somehow judgemental. And neither of you has ever answered that question.<P>[ober 15, 2001: Message edited by: KalGrl ]<P>[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: KalGrl ]<p>[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: KalGrl ]

you know absolutely nothing of what I am or am not doing in regard to my marriage. <BR>Because I have stopped posting about my own situation. Haven't for over a month.<P>And yes I have answered the question on why I am here -- over and over again. Go search.<P>Would love to see where I have been disrespectful in any post. Show me.

ummmm.... lexxy and kalgrl?? ummmm... the whole point of Truehearts post here was about being constructive and not attacking... I think... <P><B>I have seen people come here and attack others, simply because their point of views are, anywhere from slightly to greatly, different. We used to share information, reach conclusions, help others plan modes of action...now we try to *WIN* and *be right*, we try to force our opinions and points of view on others...(IMO, probably much the way we tried to do it in our Marriages, as well). <BR>The communication styles and respect for others, IMO, has deteriorated. </B><P>ummmm... this very thread has taken that turn, and proved his observations correct. Yep, this is a public forum, and yep, you can say pretty much anything you want - although we're supposed to stick to marriage-building... but c'mon...

All,<P>I have to admit that I have been pretty judgmental towards SnL since I have been here in the last few weeks. I have to apologize for that. I didn't come here looking for a fight. I came here for support and for understanding of what my WS and I are going through. I think that, from now on, if I have a problem with something someone says then maybe we can take it "outside" this forum and discuss it by private e-mail or something like that. <P>Sorry I have been disrespectful and I promise to try harder not to LB!<P><BR>RN

Thanks for the responses everyone, and yes, even this thread took on the tone that I speak of. I never used anyone's names or identities and names came popping out of the wordwork...(and by the way...I think neither Lexxy nor SnL are ilk!!) I think it is important to share points of view, get different perspectives, and bring up alternative ways of thinking, no matter how radical or "out there" someone's ideas may seem. I just think the negative tones are a tad overboard these days and the attacking needs to stop. Until we walk a mile in someone else's shoes, or know the full details of their situation, who is any of us to judge another based solely on what we read in here? Like Lexxy, I have felt increasingly, like I help less and less lately. Ideas are nothing more than another way to look at one's situation, but I also think that many of us, to use WAT's line of thinking, would rather be "right" than "married". <P>I think it is safe to say, that everyone here is either hurting, or been hurt in the not so distant past...does it really help to heap more anger, frustration and hurt on top of it by telling them they are wrong, don't deserve to be loved, or don't deserve to be here? The mess that was caused by OLG, the amount of posters that were responding to that situation on daily basis showed the passion and fervor that people had about saving marriages and working on things following the Harley principles. But there was so much energy and time given to that rather hopeless (IMO) situation, that others here suffered from lack of responses. To me, it almost seems that the more controversial one's stance, the more riled the posters become. <P>Anyway, I am rambling. It just seems that there is enough hurt in here going on, and being disrespectful to others doesn't help solve anything and in fact keeps some lurkers that have good thoughts and questions from opening up for fear of reprisal from others that may "attack" their position.<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Amazing...<P>Well trueheart, I see your point was proven, just in this threat alone... I hope that you don't stay away. Obviously your positive energy is much needed, esp. for newcomers and those of us who ARE out here spilling our guts and sharing from our hearts in a personal way... WE NEED YA!

trueheart,<P>I can understand your feelings... but don't stay away. You have been one of the rays of hope here for months. Maybe you have become exhausted and need a break. Who wouldn't after some time?<P>What I have found is that sometimes this just gets too exhausting. It's especially exhausting when there is a lot of other emotional stuff going on in one's life.<P>My hope is that once things settle down for STL and I with our children we will once again have the time and energy to help more people here.<P>One thing that I have noticed on all the forums here is that fewer and fewer people are discussing the MB principles and how to make them work in their lives. That needs to be brought back in full force. After all that is what this web site is about. Trueheart, you have always been a good resource in that area. For this reason alone I hope you stay around and post as much as you can.<P>Have a great day!!<P>Z

Thanks for the input and support Bin and Z!! I think that is what has taken me aback lately, Z, is the lack of talk about MB principles and how to make 'em work. After what I went through in the beginning, that is what kept me here. I got so much understanding of what a BS goes through and the reasons for WS having A,from so many here, but lately it just feels like everyone "needs to be heard" and the only viewpoint that seems to matter are their own. I think that maybe the burn out factor can set in too. One other thing I see is that, like someone else mentioned earlier, the cyclical aspect of things. It seems that many of the veterans here go in cycles where, they either feel they aren't helping much, or just need to take a break. I found myself spending wayyyy to much time here for awhile, and I tend to think it can detract from "real life" issues and needs. Cali said it best in that, MB can be an LB for some. Anyways, thanks for your support...you were one of the original people that welcomed me and got me headed in the right direction on my recovery, and I have never forgotten that!! Thanks from the bottom of my heart for the early inspirations!! Because of your support, I stayed, I grew, I changed, and now can lend my support and input to others.<BR>Have a great day!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

one more thought here.... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] for what it's worth ....<P>I'd like to encourage everyone to reply to each other as much as you feel comfortable doing. We need each other... we need varying opinions, experiences, and insights. I KNOW sometimes I feel like I CAN'T contribute to some of the threads - because I can't relate, and sometimes I just don't FEEL like it - because of my own stress, etc..... but it's also easy to think "my input doesn't matter - I can't offer any help". But I think anything posted as an effort to help someone - especially if it is in line with MB principles... or even just a caring soul to relate and empathize with... means a lot to someone who is reaching out for support and advice. Especially if it is done out of love, respect and sincerity. We've all posted a question or an update from time to time, and get our feelings hurt when we don't get many replies. If you have a thought or an encouraging word.... offer it up. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <P>Especially those that know and speak of "the good ole days"... please keep the spirit alive and set the example of how to post and reply.<P>just my rambling thoughts today... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <P>take care, and have a good day. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks for *ramblin in*!! Nice to hear from you again Faith!! Hope all is well!!<P>Trueheart

Hey, TH,<BR>I understand how you are feeling also - I stopped posting to someone who wasn't 'getting it' but because I knew I didn't have or want to have the time to wade through.<BR>Please don't leave MB - I for one would miss you very much because you have been so helpful to me!!! your advice and help is much appreciated! and I may need lots of help in days ahead...<BR>So, out of selfishness, I ask you to please keep posting.<BR>Thanks, TH,<BR>Hugs,<BR>S

You better not try to go anywhere! We'll all find you in cyberland and kidnap you back! Your website and e-mail addy is in your profile so we all know how to find you! I sincerely hope that you realize YOUR input as a fully recovered WS is desperately needed here and now.<P>It's not that you are here kissing BS's butts or saying all the right things to be accepted into a MB clique, like some of the WSs who are resistant to MB principles have actually said. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] You know, some former or current WSs have this weird perception of fully recovered WSs who are "accepted" as MBers, and those who are not because they are still in love with their OPs and not interested in restoring their love within their marriages. Well, DUH!<P>The thing is, I BELIEVE, you can offer insight on how to AVOID another affair because the temptation is there and it exists for everyone, whether we have had an A or not. We ALL have to deal with lust and temptation on a daily basis. We have choices.<P>Anyways, you know and I know that MB principles work and our healed marriages are proof of that fact. The miracle has settled the issue for us. Now, it is up to us to share our experiences if it can help someone else. God didn't allow us to go through all this and survive and succeed without any responsibility to help someone else by giving back.<P>I believe you have helped many, many of us who have had questions about WS mentality from time to time, BECAUSE of your marital state = FULL RECOVERY... So, anyways, just wanted to let you know how much *I* value your opinions... Hang in here with us. Iron sharpens iron.<P>I love that name, trueheart, and I love your signature. Way cool!