Quote "That is not uncommon. Another sign of fit is when physical or emotional distance is present, you realize that many parts of you are denied, it is sort of like being under a cloud, then the sun comes out. I know people who are entirely different away from their spouses, animated, interesting, alive...... yet when in presence of spouse, subdued, quiet, always watching the spouse, and adjusting their own behavior by the spouses changing moods, or choices, it is heartbreaking to watch. You can only wonder how wonderful the person would be if not married to this individual (and in fairness, maybe the same for them too)."<p>Can you elaborate? Even our MC commented on how much more likely I was to open my mouth and express feelings when H was not there...

somehow your post got messed up marissa, I never saw it, don't know where it is, if ya wanna try again, start repost with new title.<p>hmmmmmmmmm now when I posted this, it took me back to where your post is, so now I can see it.... when I just click on the title I get lov on rox post...weird, maybe is my computer somehow. I will try to post to this later.<p>[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

I don't know all the official lingo marissa, but after a lot of reading about behaviour, watching people, and listening to peoples' "stories" I think it works like this. We are all famililar with the signs of emotional/verbal abuse, and people regularly link to websites in threads about such stuff. We know this is not necessarily some evil person who does it, oft times the people are just dysfunctional in whatever way. Some are very aggressive about it, some are more passive about it, but the commonality is they employ whatever strategy necessary to control their partners behaviour. <p>This is a difference in focus, in a nurturing relationship we try to help someone be all that they can be, in a controlling relationship we try to dictate behaviour. How you do that is by getting your spouse to identify with you, your emotions become theirs, your needs become theirs, your agenda becomes there, they watch you all the time so they know how to "feel". This affects women more than men, men have a built in advantage as the defacto head of families, and they itimidate simply by being men, more aggressive, bigger, stronger etc. But women can do it too through emotional/psychological manipulation, the H never quite measures up, his masculinity always in question etc. etc. Anyways the tools are endless, but the goal is always the same, these kinds of people make you feel bad about yourself, keep you aff balance, you find yourself constantly focused on their moods, their state of mind....you assess everything you do in terms of whether they will approve, or meets their rules...it is a terrible way to live. The individual often has no idea, they "think" they are just being a dutiful spouse, cooperative, caring, loving, but to outside observers something is clearly not right, not healthy. <p>All the caring, all the nurturing is flowing in one direction, I call these kinds of people emotional black holes, they suck everything in, little or nothing comes back. They do the absolute minimum to keep their spouse in the marriage. The aggressive angry ones are more easy to spot, but there are many techniques. Another one is to be the victim all the time, they are "depressed", they are "unhappy", they are always a victim of something, they are "sick" alot, they are "tired", they are misunderstood......you get the picture? This also keeps the spouse focused on poor little them, how to make them happy blah blah blah, this might me marginally better than how to keep them from being angry, but it is all the same crap.....you don't count, you don't grow, you don't get the nurturering that flows both ways when in-love.....instead you are used, you are sucked dry, and you become an accessory in their life, a piece of their property, to be used up (and discarded if and when it suits them). This is not black and white, it comes in all gradients, from the clearly awful, to the sorta tolerable, but it is all the same. If you find yourself happier when not in the company of your spouse, if you find most conversations and emotional interactions revolve around your spouses needs, if you find you rarely act without considering the reaction of your spouse, then you are in such circumstances. There is even a name (arising from the more awful end of the spectrum) battered wife (or spouse) syndrome. You literally become your spouse, you stop counting at all, you lose your identity. However no one gives up completely, so when you are away from spouse, a hobby of your own with others, a vacation without spouse, they are away on a trip/business, you blossom, for a moment the clouds part, the sun shines, and a little of the real you struggles to be seen, heard, validated....... this is also the basis for an affair. This is NOT about needs being met, this is about being valued as a human being, and if someone values you, you gain strength to leave the abuser, cause you are now identifying with someone who (hopefully, but often times not) is nurturing you. <p>I know a woman like this. She is smart, witty, capable, loves life and shines when away from her H....but with him she is sad, watches him all the time, gauging his moods, defers to him in everything, seeks his permission for even minor decisions, makes excuses for his behaviour and neglect of her, blames herself for the state of the marriage. She has heard these observations from others, and is finally starting to realize some of it, but is having a hard time overcoming the conditioning. Her wish is that he would leave her, she hasn't the strength to do it herself...yet. He has learned to use her very loyalty, and nurturing qualities against her, by critizing her all their marriage, he has successfully made his needs her needs. Like most manipulators he is flexible, when challenged he will get angry, if that isn't working (he is not violent) he will switch gears, apologize, do all the right things, smooth it over, give in a tiny bit, but it is still about him, he sets the agenda, his needs are discussed, his woe is me, and her stuff is pretty much ignored. It is so sad to watch a human being be consumed by another human being in this way. There is no marriage, it is a picture, a pretend, cause there is no nurturing going on, never has. This is not uncommon, in fact I suspect 30-40% of marriages are to people with this kind of personality disorder. You see lots of people here in that kind of marriage. Beating their brains out, talking themself into how they just have to keep on loving, never realizing they are being used, and that they don't have to be unahppy, that marriage should not be about being unhappy (a position steve H made clear to me today). If one is married to such an individual how to proceed is clear, you tell them in no uncertain terms they will participate effectively in MB counselling and techniques for sufficient time to either restore the marriage (both are happy and enthusiastic about the marriage), or agree that it is not working and part amicably. IF they won't particiapte, you cut your losses and start a new life, that simple. You don't say oh but they could be such a good spouse ...."if"..... they has such good qualities, you don't love them sacrificially (meaning you are unhappy with THEM, whether you are happy with God, or yourself).....they are killing your spirit, there is absolutely no reason to do this, so you end it. I see the folks here (usually women) married to such men say how much they love them.....yet MB says you cannot, will not, love someone who is not meeting your needs (nurturing you).....what does this mean? There is only one conclusion, you are dependent on them, suffer from identity loss, and will never heal or be haoppy as long as you associate withn this individual..... interestingly what happens when one 'escapes" from such an individual...you often (after a grieveing period, and readjustment period) hear from folks such things as I came alive again, life is fun, and rewasrding, and when they find an intimate partner that nurtures them too they are very very happy.<p>There is no manual for this marissa, it is about looking at the patterns of your life, and if you find you are a different person with spouse, then something is clearly wrong. Applying MB is fine, but it REQUIRES the participation of spouse, if instead we find ourselves making excuses for them....then we are probably dependent. Life is too short to spend it sacrificially loving someone, or trying to fix them, I think it is worthwhile to give someone a chance (if you really want to be their lifemate) but that has a season and it is short. A year or two at most, anymore is a waste of time. Yes we hear the occassional success story of someone who hung in there for 3 yr, 4 yrs, 10yrs....but I view these things with suspicion and would have to see them up close....but in any event these are rare occurences, and who is to say the one who waited might not have found a much better spouse and been even happier, not to mention their own personal growth that has been neglected while they sacrificed themself to another. Then you have those who think living legalistically (vows and all) for God somehow is a good thing, I think that also unlikely, and has more to do with pride than anything God requires, but to each their own....the suicide bombers think they to do God's work also..... *shrug*, it is a free world people can focus on whatever they want, what do you want marissa, what do you really want? Figure that out, then proceed to work toward it, in the most efficient way possible.<p>There is nothing inherently wrong with divorce, it is an ending, but it is also a new beginning, when all things are possible again. It is not about judgeing your current spouse, it is about preparing a place for a new spouse, one who fits you, one in which both nurture, one who loves and behaves with you in the way MB and the Bible describes...... ONE person cannot have a marriage, it takes TWO, and if one won't participate, it really makes no difference why, it is time to end it.....if they can "cure" themself, and find you again, nothing prevents you from remarrying...right? There is really nothing to fear in divorce methinks, it is not the end unless it should be the end....ya know? But living in a parasitic relationship is hell, not marriage, and it is awful for everyone involved.

Okay. I am definitely a different person with H than without. This has been noted by others. I definitely censor my language and behavior when around him. (reinforced by certain things he has said) He will admit that I am practically a shadow of the person he married. (and he's not happy about it) I was outgoing and opinionated. Now I rarely venture an opinion, especially if I know it will conflict with his. It's just not worth it. <p>However, I am not convinced that he has been the sole cause of this. Obviously, since I have made the changes in myself... I grew up in an abusive household. My mother has borderline personality disorder - untreated except for rare occasions. Living with her was hell. Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde and you never knew which one you were going to get. H frequently reminds me that he is not my mother. I do react to him in the same ways that I react to my mother. I'm not sure how to reverse this process. I want to feel like myself again.

Marissa,
Were you and I seperated at birth? I swear I know exactly what you are describing because I have been living it for 15 years with my husband. I feel too that it is not all him - for some reason (probably many) I suppress my feelings and my desires and become this subsurvient "little wife". <p>I am not who I have become. Where am I?<p>I have been working on this for 15 months in intensive therapy and am on the path of recovery. It has been hell and there is more to come, but I finally see a light (and a LIFE) at the end of the tunnel.<p>One of the things I did in my marriage has been to exert my independence in underhanded passive-aggressive ways. Like if I knew he would be mad if I spent money on something, I would just lie about how much it cost. Or tell him my mother bought it. Anything not to have to deal with him over the issue. <p>I always analyzed how he would respond or react to something and if I thought it would be bad, I didn't necessarily not do the thing, but I would lie. So, in my need to be the "perfect little wife" I have helped to destroy all trust in me. <p>I mean when he says he can't trust me, I agree with him! So, while he is to blame for his part I am responsible too for the state of our marriage. <p>One time, when we had been married about 4 years he was cooking hamburger and was putting melted butter on the burgers as they grilled. Now, I ask you, who needs butter on top of an already very fatty, juicy patty of GROUND BEEF? This seemed absurd to me. So, I asked him, "Please don't put butter on mine" His response, "Who is cooking the GD burgers?" I took that to mean, you will have it my way or you won't have it. I should have just not had it. But, I acquiesed and contorted ME for years to try and accomodate HIM. I almost lost me. <p>I went on to make some very bad decisions (embezzling money from my employer) as a SCREAM for help. Not just with my marriage, but with my life. I was trying to be who I thought the world wanted me to be. Now that it is all out in the open and the facade has been torn down, we are finding just what SNL says - there really isn't much of a marriage here. We are proceeding to the D. I am sad, but also feel like I may just be going through successful chemo. If I can come out of this cancer free - it will be a triumph.<p>We both love and adore our 3 kids and I believe we will continue to be great parents - seperately. I do ache for them. But, I also rejoice that they get to have a real mom finally and not some puppet who can put on a great show.<p>Anyway, I have rambled long enough. Just wanted to say that SNL has some very valid points and wish you the best in your journey,
M

To sad_n_lonely and Marissa<p>First of all to Marissa, I am sorry I am jumping in on this post but when I read it I couldn&#8217;t believe what I was hearing and I had to comment. Once again I think I can relate to how you are feeling. I wish you the best of luck and I hope you find happiness.<p>To: sad_n_lonely when you wrote some of the things you did I felt like you were talking about me! It really hit me hard that I am living in an emotional abusive relationship. I printed your post and started highlighting everything that either fit my relationship or things that I could relate to. When I was done I found that it was 90% highlighted. <p>A few of things you said really stood out. <p> The individual often has no idea, they "think" they are just being a dutiful spouse, cooperative, caring, loving, but to outside observers something is clearly not right, not healthy.

The following are quotes from the OW in my EA:<p>I think about how you are so different when your wife isn't around. <p>You get so quiet and obedient around her...you look to her to tell you what to do...<p>It is hard for me to understand how a strong man like you would just let her walk all over you all of the time.<p>You are so totally different without her. Did you know that?<p>She is very domineering and bossy to you. <p>She is using you and you let her. You are a chicken and a whooped man.....hen pecked 100%. How do you like that status? Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Stand up and be a man and get a life
If you do the same sucking up over and over until you are a beaten man, she will suck the life right out of you. It will never be enough! You could do everything on the list and she would just
add more to it or complain about what you did do!!!!<p>Even being alone is better than being miserable and yelled at and put down and told you aren't enough and sucking up for affection only makes you feel like someone for sale....the price is "do this job" obey my wish and you can rub the magic lamp....no way! <p> However no one gives up completely, so when you are away from spouse, a hobby of your own with others, a vacation without spouse, they are away on a trip/business, you blossom, for a moment the clouds part, the sun shines, and a little of the real you struggles to be seen, heard, validated <p>This also fits me! In the last four years I have started cycling and have gone on four week long cycling trips. I enjoy the cycling very much and I enjoy the trips. I feel like I am a different person. Many times in the last few years I have felt like there was someone inside of me struggling to get out. My wife resents the time spent cycling and especially hates the week long trips! She hates them so much that I am afraid to tell her that I want to go on another one next year because I know she will be angry with me. She tells me that if I really loved her I wouldn&#8217;t leave to go on vacation by my self! She tells me this even though I spend at least one week of vacation a year with her without any children.<p> This is also the basis for an affair. This is NOT about needs being met, this is about being valued as a human being, and if someone values you, you gain strength to leave the abuser, cause you are now identifying with someone who (hopefully, but often times not) is nurturing you. <p>I believe this is the exact reason I had a EA. I also wanted the OW to want me enough for her to want me to leave my wife. I haven&#8217;t had the strength to do it myself. (OW wouldn&#8217;t do it, she didn&#8217;t want to be the cause of a marriage breaking up).<p>I have been going to counseling but I think we need to talk about emotional abuse some more. By the way my wife refuses to join me in counseling.<p>sad_n_lonely you said that you have done a lot of reading. Are there any books that you can recommend about emotional abuse?

Wiffle - Couldn't tell ya. Was born in 1968 though. I tried to be everything (I thought) he wanted me to be. I don't like myself and he says I'm not the woman he married. BLAH. <p>Looking for a life, not even sure where to look anymore. That's how I got into trouble the last time (my EA) and I'm scared to mess up again.<p>Actually, I don't always know why I'm 'hiding'. Like the time I backed his truck into the neighbor's car. By the time I got from the driveway to the kitchen, I was so far into hysterics he thought I had hit a *person*. He was totally calm and very kind. No damage to his truck, but I made a mess of the neighbors car! <p>But sometimes if I say I was thinking about 'x' he'll just veto it out of hand. When did he get to have veto power but never have to offer suggestions himself? <p>I know I've made an awful mess of things. Not that he doesn't admit that he helped us get here. But somehow I've got to figure out who the hell I am. <p>Thanks for your story and your good wishes. Best to you as well. ((wiffle))<p>Want Love - the more the merrier! I had just pulled SNL's quote out of kevco's thread because it hit home and didn't want to hijack. <p>I would like to recommend a book by Patricia Evans - The Verbally Abusive Relationship. My counselor suggested it in dealing with my mother, but it's good as an all around help to.

Dear Marrissa:<p>I tried to answer you yesterday but the server went down. So I will start with Nice Vent for yesterday.<p>I agree in general with SNL in his description of an emotionally abusive relationship. You however have said a few things which made me go HUH?<p>You said your mother has a character disorder which required you to adjust your behavior etc to how you thought she would react. You also said that you H does not believe the person you are now is the person he married. You also said you put yourself into this condition.<p>I believe you have to dig deep into yourself to determine if your current reaction to your H (i.e. adjusting your personality to suit your perception of what H would want)is due to H or your past with your M. I assume the relationship with H is the longest live-in full time responsibility relationship you have had beside your relationship with your M.<p>Is it possible that your H does not want you to do this to yourself?<p>If you can answer these question you will be a long way to deciding what you need to do for you.<p>Re your post of yesterday try a weekend away just for you without H. I think it is good for all of us to do this on occasion.<p>Like any internet advice take what you need and leave the rest.<p>JMHO<p>I wish you the best.<p>Jack<p>[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: willmakeitwork ]</p>

willmakeitwork - Not sure what made you go HUH?
My mother is a type of chronic depressive who for most of my life (and hers) refused medication. As far as I can count she has been hospitalized for depression at least 4 times. As soon as she feels better she goes off the medication. Spiral downward... not fun to grow up with one parent who was always at work and the other parent totally unpredictable. Her attitude could change from one moment to the next with no warning. Screaming at me to get out of the house and never come back, but sweet as anything to the person who calls on the phone in the middle of her ranting at me. <p>I was probably about 11 or 12 at the time of the above memory. I learned early to be invisible. No wants, no needs, no attention. <p>I can not honestly tell if my reaction is realistic, or just reverting to a learned defense mechanism. My therapist diagnosed it as PTSD. Unfortunately my insurance changed and I can't see her anymore. I've been refusing to start therapy over, but I suppose I should.

My h does not like what I've become. But at the same time, he can be very pedantic towards me. He has corrected my grammer, corrected my behavior, thanked me for asking a question in the right way, talked to me as if I were one of the teenagers who worked for him. He has made me feel that my feelings were wrong, invalid, untrue. I have felt physically threatened by his angry outbursts. (now under control) <p>I almost never go away by myself. H doesn't like it. I went out for 3 1/2 hours last Saturday and he was pouting because I didn't ask him to go with me. He missed me. I wasn't even gone that long. He wasn't home when I left the house, and he had a lot of homework to do. I went and did some personal errands so that we could spend the evening together. We have never had much time together. We worked opposite shifts for most of our marriage. I always adjusted my time to be home when he was home. I also adjusted my eating and sleeping habits as much as I could. <p>I just don't feel like I'm a whole person anymore. Maybe, as our marriage counselor said, I'm being childish and selfish. Defiant. Well, I suppose I was when I was trying to hang on to OM. But it was the closest I've felt to being myself in years. I was doing something for *me*, what I wanted to do. And if I told OP 'no, I don't want to see you today, I just want to stay home and read a book' it was *ok*. I didn't feel guilty for it.

I intend to address all this more when I get time, I think it is important and widespread in relationships, and needs to be talked about amongst folks, not just in therapy. But we should keep in mind none of us are mental health professionals, and take all advice/observations with a grain of salt...however we are all professionals on being human, and quite well-versed on being ourselves.<p>Marissa, sounds like a chicken egg thingy, are you how you are cause of foo, (or even worse, and what probably scares you the most, genetic reasons), or did you "select" a marital partner who validated your skewed self-image, or did someone select you, cause you are allready pre-trained to be amenable to control? These are the questions needing to be answered. Your willingness to examine them suggests you are pretty normal and self-aware, and as you noted (and implied) your H behaviour is his, you didn't make him the way he is. IMO some of this has to do with that pesky issue of fit (which is nothing more than the label for how we mesh psychologically with someone, which I think has a lot to do with in-love, and the application of MB behaviours), if you do not fit well, I think that can have a sort of negative synergy, and contribute to marital unhappiness. <p>One can "work" (due to various motivations) to make the square peg fit in the round hole, or recognize that the effort is not worthwhile (by whatever standards we each choose to conduct our lives by, no one can tell us that). This does not mean anything is "wrong" with either party per se (although it might) it is more about how resistant to change each party is. The trouble with MB is that is based on people changing, and WANTING to change fundamental things about themselves, assessing whether you want to do that is part of the deal. <p>People may not want to change enough (for lots of reasons good and bad) to supposedly achieve the conditions which lead to feelings of romantic love (the goal MB clearly is based on....NOT settleing for caring, or comfortable marriage, and I think they are right, marriage should be about passion, you can "care" about anyone...none of us want to me married to a brother or sister....we want to be passionately married to a lover, and I think we are healthier when such is true as well).<p>But first, IMO each and every one of us need to decide how we want to live, and keep that standard in mind, and make decisions based on that. In my case, whatever the reasons, I decided, my marriage was over, I did not, and would not, live anymore like that....yes the ow played a role, but she is not the reason why, no one is ever the reason why, we all decide for ourselves, inside, one way or another. Either proactively, or by denial, or by apathy, or by being under controlling influence, but we do decide. My reasons for examining all this for last few months (what is marriage, what is love, what is fit, how does it all go together) was to proactively choose a new standard, and "reprogram" myself to that standard. I have chosen passion, I will always "care" about my wife, and see to her basic needs and such...but to be married we should be passionate....she is not sure what she wants, sometimes passion, sometimes just settling, my investigations cause some friction between us, cause she feels threatened (by loss of control in my estimation)...but by having a goal, I have regained control of my life, and that is what many of you are struggling with too. Passion is not teenage hormones, it is not euphoric fantasy, it is how an intimate relationship between a man and woman should feel... it is about being emotionally safe, it is about nurturing and being nurtured, it is about desire, it is a lot of things we all know, but forget, or think we can never have. It is not easy to find methinks, there is risk, but then that is part of it too, it requires vulnerability, and that is what is missing in most dysfunctional marriages, we gaurd, we have to cause our spouse does not protect us, and I hate that feeling. We are told that is normal, no marriage is perfect, that is not true, nor is it about perfection, it is about fitting, and some people do have it, that means it is possible.....but just as obviously you cannot have it with just anyone. IMO reconcilliation is about cold calclulated analytical assessment of your spouse and the truth about them and you first, and if the reality is, after a reasonable effort, that you are not going to be happy with them, then you end it, because I think we all have good instincts, and denying them just means a lifetime of unahppiness (in the intimate sense). Finding your "happiness" elsewhere, kids, social good, God....is all fine and well, but you do not need to be married to do those things.....if two people are not happy together, why on earth force themselves to stay together supposedly "working".

sad_n_lonely - It is sort of the chicken and the egg. I admit to having other than normal responses to certain situations. Learned behaviors such as conflict avoidance and others.
I have no worries on the genetic issue. I was adopted. (Yes, I know, someone wasn't paying attention.) <p>I selected a mate who was known for being depressed, but couldn't see it, since he 'wasn't that way with me'. Or maybe I thought I could 'make' him happy. For years I thought I should be happy - he doesn't drink, I never had to wonder where he was (he was always at work). I never had to bail him out of jail. We didn't fight about anything. <p>I do want to be 'passionately married'. I am rapidly losing the ability to be passionate about anything however, and I do not see him as being passionate about anything other than staying married. Not that I am ungrateful for that! But he has no real outside interests, no social life, ... He goes to work and to school and follows politics and the news. That's it. Maybe the problem is I don't see him as a whole person? <p>I remember screaming at my mother once when I just couldn't keep it down anymore. I was screaming 'get a life of your own'. And she looked at me and said 'you are my life'. I couldn't stand it. It was too much responsibility for me. It was like having a panic attack. I had to get away from her. I sometimes feel the same way about my H. I can't stand anyone needing me that much. I can't imagine needing anyone that much.

Marrissa:<p>All I meant by HUH was that reading your comments about your mother made me think of foo issues contributing to you current feelings.<p>I am sorry you feel you cannot get time alone. I personally feel that it is important for everyone.<p>I don't know if you and H have ever had counselling together or individually but given his apparant depression and your foo issues (PTSD)it would seem to me as a layman you would both benefit.<p>I obviously don't know for sure but it seems to me your OM was an escape for you as well as a situation you felt in total control of (nothing like am arm chair quarterback).<p>I do not mean to be simplistic but it seems to me that you need to determine for yourself if you love your H enough so it is worth the work you need to do to get the relationship you want. The corollary is also true your H has to love you enough to do the work he has to do to change his method of relating to you.<p>Fit is fine. Emotional abuse issues are fine. How do you feel about H. Once you decide the work can be done to determine if you fit your H and visa versa and deal with the marriage issues you have.<p>I know this is simplistic but eventually we all have to do something. No decision is usually the least satisfying one. I hope you make the best decision for you.<p>My best to you. Forgive my rambling style and lack of proofing it is the end of day here at work and I am crushed.<p>Jack

willmakeitwork - H and I went to counseling after d day. Was a disaster. We fought constantly. She was one of those why can't you be nice to each other types. The joint counselor wanted him to take antideps - he wont.
The Om was definitely an escape for me, and yes I did feel much more in control than in my marriage.<p>simplistic is fine...<p>I don't really have time to write now, I will think about this and write more tomorrow....<p>Thanks for your good wishes!