The people we fell in love with? Those people are gone? They died? Not literally, but the person we fell in love with? <p> I see flashes of my old wife, but it doesn't last. This new person is not even someone I like. I want my wife back. Thing is, I am starting to believe that she is dead, never to return.<p> I guess my question is simply, Do They Ever Return? In some symbolence(sp?) of their former selves?<p> Sigh<p> jd

jdmac1 please don't despair. I know right now that it seems as though you W is gone at least the W you know and love but she is still there.
Remember the fog is still there too. <p>I thought the man I fell in love with and married was gone to. I thought my M was over and we were definitely headed for a divorce. Today (7mos) later we are in recovery. <p>Please don't give up yet you've come this far. Your W is still there. She may not seem the same to you but she's there and she sees all the good things you are doing just remmember she's not seeing things clearly because of the fog.
Good luck to you,
C

jdmac1,<p>I don't know if this thought will help you. Maybe it will. My son is BS, DIL the WS. In their attempt at recovery, son's mindset is, yes, the old marriage is dead; their old selves have changed. She will never be the person he fell in love with 8 years ago. He's different, too. That is simply the reality. BUT, maybe they can successfully build build a NEW, even better relationship and embark on a new marriage.<p>Don't give up. Estes

Hi Jdmac:<p>I don't know if "gone" would be the word I would use to describe the WS but certainly "changed" would be apt. We all are changed by what has happened....our trust will never be the same....our feeling of exclusiviness....the specialness of our relationship....the breaking of bonds (not vows...SNL) that have taken years to build up...but in the long run, if things work out and a new, stronger union can be built on the ashes of the old....then it will have served a "good" purpose (although it hurt like h***)...a cleasing, purging of the old marriage with a chance to begin again.<p>I guess what I'm trying to say is that..yes, they are changed...but it's not necessarily going to be forever...it's a learning process and can have some value if all involved can gain some perspective on the "whys" and "hows" of why this all happened.<p>Yes, I've been incredible hurt by all this...but I've also been tested and learned I can survive and grow through pain and suffering. Sometimes that is the only way we can be forced to look at what is "bad" about our relationship (on boths sides) and given the needed push to do something about it.<p>I've come to realize that this man I married...stubborn as he is...has lessons to learn even at his age that I can't teach him...only life can do that....and not necessarily life with me...because obviously he has not learned those lessons while with me. I have no doubts about the marriage surviving...but it needed to change...both of us needed to change. Maybe the WS has changed too much..but it was a necessity for him or her to tear themselves away from what was so that they could learn what could be. The process should someday lead to their returning to what was good about themselves and their lives but retaining the positives that they have learned from the A. We should try to do the same.<p>So don't dispair...it's not forever...she'll be back...not the same...but maybe, just maybe..having learned a valuable lesson about herself, you and the marriage. <p>Faye

Oh JD,
Pull your head back up and think positive. {{{HUGS}}}
Since D-day my H is no longer sexually in the mood, I feel that I can only blame myself. I often ask will he ever love me like before, Will he ever trust me?<p>Give it time Jd. Give it time.
{{{{HUGS}}}
Sherry

Thanks Everyone,<p> Well, it's not that I am dispairing over it. I have done enough of that to last a lifetime. No, this is more like an awakening. I want my old W back, just don't see it happening. <p> And like I said, I don't even like this new person. She is a self centered, rude, taker. No, not ALL the time. But most of the time for sure.<p> Thing is, I am willing to be the giver. At least I was willing. I wanted to become whatever she wanted or needed me to become to save the marriage. It is never enough for her though. <p> I still live alone, sleep alone(most of the time) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] and do all the work to save this marriage.<p> And for what? Hey Maybe plan a is starting to do it's job after all.<p> jd

Hey JD:<p>After a long period of giving...our taker can rear its ugly head too....that what it sounds like is happening to you. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It's naturally...we get tired of doing all the giving...but are you in this for the long haul?<p>And for heaven's sake...don't start buying into her reality...that can happen. You can get so fed up that you begin to say "maybe she right"...there is no hope. <p>Not liking the person your wife has become is to be expected...she has to do what she is doing to justify herself (even to herself)...but that can't last forever....and as long as things are going well with OP then she may have this reality. It's when things begin to crumble in the other affair that reality rears its ugly head...and she pulls her head out of the ground and says "where am I" "What have I been doing?".
It may not last for long...but you'll see it...and you'll also see glimpes of the "old" WS.
And the period of being more aware become longer and longer...but this all takes time...and some people longer then others.<p>If you can just maintain your resolve that this is going to work out...that you and your marriage will survive all this, then this will help to give you the patience you need to get through it.<p>Don't give up now...although sometimes I think your drawing back when you've been doing all the effort does have some beneficial effect...just realize that this is like a dance..and sometimes you're leading and sometimes you're following...but the dance needs to go on til the music is over. Don't quit while the music's still playing. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You can do this...I know you can.<p>Faye

My WH is a different person, too, and he's well aware of it, and he says he doesn't care and that he's not going back to the person he was, no way, no how.<p>The way I'm looking at it is the way it must have been in the days of arranged marriages or mail-order brides in the pioneer days. I am in this situation, married to a stranger (mainly because of the kids), and I'm going to make the best of it.<p>Maybe I'll end up liking this stranger someday, maybe not, but knowing I have the option of getting out any time I want, I'm willing to give it some time to see what, if anything, develops.<p>Frankly, sometimes it's just the sex that keeps me here. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] At least that's always reliable and satisfying.<p>[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Conqueror:<p>Been there, done that...got the T-shirt. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>They say alot of things at first...but you know what...time does change things....and they do change their minds. I know my WH use to say the same things...he wanted things to be different..he liked what he had become...he was proud of it...reveled in it....for a while. But, O how the mighty have fallen...things have changed...he has learned...is learning....it's just very slow.<p>Now he acknowledges that he made mistakes of his own in the marriage...everything is not my fault anymore...that perhaps this new life and these new people are not what he needs...that he's different from them and we are better suited for each other. Do you hear a fog horn? Is the fog lifting? I quess this is what I mean by waiting it out. Don't give up the hope that your WH can change again...but don't expect him to be the same old person...some changes may be forever...but that may be a good thing.<p>I'm just on the other side of the hill you're on and I can already see the changes...just wanted you to know that just because you can't see the changes to come...don't doubt that they are possible.<p>Faye<p>[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: buffy ]</p>

Dear jdmac1,
I think if you read through this Q&A column on Coping with Infidelity Part 4: Overcoming Resentment, it may help you see that neither one of you will ever be the same.<p>You will be living with the memories of these events and how much they hurt you long after all is forgiven...<p>Here is an excerpt from the above column by Dr.Harley:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
...In the first three parts of this series on coping with infidelity, I have given you advice as to the best ways to recover from an affair. But an issue that I have left for last is one that can ruin an otherwise stunning recovery--resentment. <p>This topic is one of the most difficult topics to address in marriage. On the one hand, resentment is a normal reaction to someone who has caused you to go through unbearable pain. It is your emotion's way of warning you to avoid people who have hurt you in the past -- they may hurt you again in the future! But, on the other hand, resentment can also be an irrational reaction to something that is no longer a real threat. In fact, resentment itself may become a greater threat to your happiness than what it is you fear. <p>Those who have written me understand how damaging their feeling of resentment is to their happiness and to the future of their marriage. But they seem unable to stop it. It's a great subject for a psychologist, who is supposed to know how to help people control their emotions. But, I must admit, this is a tough one. <p>I have answers to some parts of the problem, but not all of them. So to help you as much as I can, I will lay the problem out to you and give my advice wherever I can. <p>The more there is to resent, the more difficult it is to overcome resentment. <p>...But emotional associations fade over time as long as there are no further associations with new painful events... With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree. <p>But there is more to resent than just the number of affairs a husband had in the past. In many cases, an affair is discovered while it's going on, and the unfaithful spouse makes matters worse by choosing to be with the lover and abandoning the spouse and children. That thoughtless act is a huge source of additional resentment for the victimized spouse. He or she not only goes through the pain of discovering the affair, but must also go through the pain of being rejected. The unfaithful spouse often moves away to be with the lover, leaving the spouse all alone to face the terror of abandonment. <p>Then, if all of that weren't enough, the unfaithful spouse explains that he or she needs time to "sort out" feelings, whatever that means. It actually means that the unfaithful spouse will go to the highest bidder. Whoever makes the unfaithful spouse feel the best, the lover or the spouse, will win the prize of the unfaithful spouse. So he or she spends some time with the lover, and then spends some time with the spouse. Back and forth, trying to "get in touch" with feelings. Can you fathom the resentment that would follow such a horrifying and humiliating experience? <p>But there's more. After vacillating back and forth a few times, the lover gets sick of it all and tosses the spouse out for good. With nowhere else to go, the unfaithful spouse comes back home. It
wasn't his or her choice. It was the lover's choice. How would you feel being chosen because you were the only one left. Resentment doesn't begin to describe the feeling. <p>Finally, there's all the lies. Your spouse looks right into your eyes and lies to you about everything. Faced with undeniable evidence,
he or she grudgingly and defensively admits to one lie after another, rarely accompanied by apologies. How can there ever be trust again?
<hr></blockquote> <p>Continue to be strong in the Lord, He has a purpose and a plan in this. He is watching over you and your family in spite of this turmoil. We can still find a lot to be thankful for and that will get rid of all the discouragement we are feeling in tough times. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Sorry to leave the Dr.Harley quote on such a gloomy note, there was a light at the end of the dark tunnel, read below, or just click on the above link to read the whole thing:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...If your problem with resentment is not
covered in this column, e-mail me issues that you are still struggling with, and I will try to help you with them. <p>Resentment seems insurmountable when an affair is first discovered, and as it unfolds, with its attending lies and thoughtless acts, it's amazing that anyone can actually overcome resentment. But it's a fact that people usually do, especially when the core problems leading to infidelity are resolved. It's a good illustration of how our instincts lead us astray when trying to resolve our marital problems. Most of us cannot imagine overcoming resentment after a spouse's affair, but those who have gone through it know that it's not only possible, but it's likely that resentment will fade away.<hr></blockquote><p>[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Wow,<p> Everyone has given some great advice on the subject. Thanks BTDT, I must have completely missed this article. It describes just the way I feel at times.<p> The only bad part(and the Harleys may address this further in the article)is the part where he says that resentment is not something he would disagree with in the case of multiple A's. And that he would even agree that it might be best to end the marriage.<p> I will read that article completely right after I post this. <p> As for the rest. Well I do plan on continuing Plan A, at least through the holidays. And I will re-double my efforts to make sure it is the best Plan A possible. At that time I must take the hardest look at all this, than I ever have to date. <p> It is a hard thing to know that I will be seperated, still, through the holidays. Unless something drastic happens with my W that is. <p> Cybil, Estes49, Buffy, Keep Smiling, Conqueror, BINthereDUNthat,<p> You guys are great. It is because of people like yourselves that I have kept going through all of this. It means much to me. One day God will shower you all with so much happiness that you will be amazed. Some of you may have that already. It is my prayer that if you don't, you get it soon.<p> jd

Discouragement cannot thrive in the thankful heart, so we gotta try to focus on what we have instead of what we don't have to get through the tough times... We're in this together. If God is for us, who can be against us?<p>Yes, and that column really did end on a positive note. Please do read it all! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey JD... <p>Sounds as if you and I are mirroring each others thoughts and feelings nearly on a daily basis. That of our W's also. You sure you aren't married to my wife? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>JD.. I'm in the same boat.. I just don't know if I have the strength to make it through the holiday's. I'm really trying not to be angry right now, but its VERY hard. The resentment is building and I don't know how to control it. Bitterness, too is setting in. For the love of God, I wish he would take me from all this and comfort me in his love. <p>As I sit her with tears in my eyes, I don't like the person my W has become. She isn't even the same mother my children once knew. I am so disgusted at times, that the physical ailments nearly make me vomit. When my W this weekend told me the morning after her and I enjoyed SF [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] that her and the OM had been having sex 2 doors down I nearly threw up right there in front of her as I gagged to keep it down. She became angry that my body reacted to the news. <p>I know where your at JD. Every stone that we turn over has caca on both sides.

H2Y,<p> Yeah it sucks! That's really all I can say right now. <p> I know exactly how you feel about wanting HIM to takes us and wrap us in His love as well. <p> Hang in there Kev. This crap has to end sometime. With or without our WS.
<p> jd

Hi Jd,<p>Sorry to hear your pain. Yes, your former mate did leave. The body of the one who claims to be your W but really is the WS is a different person. By all visible means she retains your W's identity. That is the challenge. No one knows how much she has changed except you. Some can see some difference but you know the impact since you are the primary one who is affected by this transition of W to WS (alien abudction theory).<p>When this happend to me, in tears I asked my H one night to please go find my real H and ask him to come home even for just a few minutes so that I could tell him that I loved him and give him a big hug and kiss goodbye. H replied, 'yes I would like him to come back too.' I believe from that point on our lives changed. We went from fighting to trying to work together. Is my real H back? Bits and pieces of him. Not all yet. On the other hand the WS H's diposition is disappearing and growing weaker and weaker. I live in the fear that the WS H may come back someday. H now says that sometimes he wants to go back to our meetings and Bible Studies and see his friends again. So we are not at 100% yet. <p>Do they leave? Yes. Can they come back? Yes but it is up to them. We can only plant the idea and hope it takes seed. <p>Plant it, water it and pray that God makes it grow. <p>Take Care JD,
L.

jmac1,<p>Yes, the person I fell in love with is gone. Pieces of him withered over the years, and the A-land aliens abducted the rest of the person I loved leaving only the worst of the worst qualities.<p>But, 15 months after d-day, I am with the 'new and improved' H. I like him way, way more than I ever liked the 'old H', even in the early days. This new version has all sorts of added features, and I think that there is a very good chance that I will fall in love again, with the improved version.<p>Don't misunderstand me, I will not EVER be grateful that H had an A and I will never believe that it was necessary in order for us to rebuild a better M. I know that H's choices were wrong and hurtful; I know that there were so many things he could have done to help us rebuild that did not include breaking my heart. What I am saying is that from the ashes of the damage that the A inflicts, a new and improved FWS can rise, as can a new and improved BS, and a better M.<p>I really loved my old H, but I really, really like my new H and am loving the opportunity to fall in love with the new and improved H again. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>OneDay

JD,
I understand where you are. I feel those same emotions, question where she has gone. Sometimes I see visions, but they are quickly squelched by the "taker" she has become.<p>Though my wife is no longer in her affair, the fog seems to remain...it has wrapped itself in a form of bitterness. She says she forgives, but doesn't love me anymore. Says my affair isn't what killed it, but the lies. Believes God can help her to learn to trust, that she trusts God, but doesn't want our marriage to be rebuilt. She even tells me that our marriage was a mistake, that she has wasted her life with me. <p>Reading this thread of posts though has encouraged me greatly...I hope it has inspired you too. All the things that they find out by feeling their way to decisions I hope my W will learn, I just pray it doesn't take a divorce for that to happen.<p>I am reaching the bottom of the barrel of my love-bank I can tell you that. I still love her, am still in-love with her and am committed to the long-haul of recovery, but wow, what a rocky and twisty road I find myself on. I think we stand on this road, perhaps in different places, but the road remains the same none-the-less.<p>God is working this all out, and He will finish the good work that He has started in you...this I know. Hang in there, be encouraged. You're gonna make it.

I want to that you all again for your words of encouragement. One thing I may not have made clear though, is that We are not in recovery yet. <p> I want that to happen very much. I want a full chance to see if I can fall in love with this new person. But, I know some parts of this new W will have to change. I only speak of seeing OMs. To me it makes no difference if there is a PA going on. There is little doubt of at least an EA. <p> Thanks again for your kind words everyone.<p> jd

hmmm...I don't want my old H or my old marriage back.<p>I think that you can pretty much assume that the "old" stuff is gone, but if your wife and you choose recovery together one day, what you will have in its place is will be much more fulfilling.