My recovery from my husband's affairs is in general very good, but one issue is really holding us back and causing me a lot of unhappiness and distrust.<p>After flying all day on a p.m. trip (all trips are either a.m.'s or p.m.'s) my husband arrives at the hotel anywhere from 10:30 p.m. to 12:30 a.m., or rarely, later. Usually he hasn't gotten any supper, or had any food for hours because the crew doesn't have time to grab food between flights. No food is available mid-flight. Since no restaurants are open that late, and there isn't any transportation, H usually winds up in the hotel bar with other crew members having bar food and beer. This is a big trigger for me since both of his affairs began as flirting with flight attendants over drinks in the hotel bar.<p>He assures me that he is protecting his weaknesses now, and protecting me, but of course, I can't entirely trust him anymore. I know he needs to eat, but even when he isn't hungry he tells me that he is "pumped up" from flying and needs some time to relax (in the bar since there's nowhere else to go) before going to sleep.<p>He tries to fly only a.m. trips, but his lack of seniority prevents this. I ask him questions, such as "Who was there? Did you talk to flight attendants? Did you see OW? How long did you stay? How many beers did you have?" but I can see that this could be a big LB even though so far he has graciously answered all my questions. I still wonder, could he be graciously lying to me again?<p>I knew this morning that he went to the bar again last night and by the time we talked on the phone, I had already decided that he might have slept with another woman, and that I should stay in the house until the end of the school year so that our children could finish 3rd grade while we worked on a divorce. This kind of jumping to conclusions doesn't help.<p>How can I handle this? His going to bars is LB'ing me, and my anxiety about this is LB'ing him. I don't think POJA is the answer because I can't really say that I disagree with him having something to eat after the day's work. Besides, I could never make him stay in his hotel room. This would require me to be some kind of detective/policeman, which would definately be a big LB. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Any advice appreciated!<p>Rose Red<p>[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Rose Red ]</p>

I'm sorry your here. <p>I think your concern is legitimate. There are a lot of fast food chains open 24 hours or there are sandwiches in the convenience stores. He can take a nytol or tylenol PM to go to sleep and talk to you on the phone until it kicks in - it usually only takes 30 minutes or pack a PeanutButter and Jelly sandwich. I mean this isn't forever but he has to do something to rebuild trust. You are not doing this to punish him but to help rebuild trust in your marriage. This would be an unreasonable request for someone who is trustworthy. But since he had the affair - this is very reasonable. This will not GUARANTEE he doesn't have an affair but it will give you a sign that he is committed to the marriage and make it more of a chore for him to go out after he first goes back to the hotel to talk to you for an hour.

Besides, after all the lies he told. This is an action to back up the words he is saying of working on the marriage.

I wish I had some answers. When my H. started flying with the airlines...we knew he would have trouble with that situation, especially since he had already had affairs.<p>I think the airline industry is a tough one. You are in a weird situation with people who are just as lonely and don't want to stay in a hotel room by themselves either. <p>The other thing is--it gives them opportunity--with many people who are more than willing. For the most part, I don't think they are together for long...unless it develops into something like my H' did. <p>I wish I could give you reassurance...but from what I know of the industry....you either have to trust them....or they need to get another line of work. <p>Sorry if I sound bitter. Pat

Hi Rose,<p>Sorry I didn't see this sooner. Didn't recognize the initials. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Man, Can I relate. My H flies cargo, tho, so at least stewardess' aren't a problem. Just baggage handlers. He also flies nights so his timing for food is a little different, too. Often he takes snack ramen soup, tho, and use the room coffee pot to heat up water. Also, the pilots he works with seem to prefer NOT to use the hotel bar, just because it is too close to home, so to speak.<p>But your situation is difficult. How much do you trust that he is now fully dedicated to saving the marriage? HOw often does it happen that he actually works with the flight attendent he had the affair with? I don't think I would ever be able to stand that! It was bad enough when I discovered my H called his OW "once in a while"<p>I honestly don't think these guys see or understand how important it is to reestablish trust, even if it means a period of sacrifice on their parts. I never felt mine went to any great lengths to help me trust him again.<p> Is there a control issue? To question his evening activities is natural, whether an affair has happened or not, yet I can see how he might consider it LB'ing at this point in the game. <p>I also think that drinking, in general, is a big problem in the aviation industry, don't you? I know I think my H drinks too often.<p>Well, I haven't been much help, have I? When I first discovered my H's affair, over two years ago I began a web-site called "Life with a Traveling Man, and How to Survive the Journey" I never finished it, partially, I guess, because I lost faith in my ability to survive staying married to a traveler. Hard to give advise, when you don't believe it is working for you, although my H, in the last two weeks, has been plan A'ing me while at the same time insisting on the "innocense" of his behavior when he is away from home. Denies that he did more than just kiss the last one a little. Just playing, is the way he put it. Didn't mean anything. yeda yada yada.<p>I'm sorry. I degress....sposed to be helping you.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'd like to know more of your story. Maybe I'll check it out later....better yet. See ya in Nashville soon, maybe.<p>Beth

Thanks for your replies--talking to errant spouse in about half an hour. I'll probably wind up LBing him. Ugh. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>notheard, I agree with you that he should be doing this to rebuild trust--not as a permanent thing, but because I need it so much now. As a rule, his behavior is so changed from what it was pre-d-day that I am inclined to trust him a little, but I just think this is asking too much of me. As for getting something to eat anywhere else, it's practically impossible. Don't forget, he get's dropped off at the hotel by the hotel van without a car. He can't very easily get anywhere to get anything to eat. Plus, because it's so late, he only has between one and two hours before he needs to go to bed. (On the other hand, the thought will intrude that on d-day I heard a message he'd left in a drunken state on OW's answering machine at three o'clock in the morning, so apparently he can stay up if there is something important to do, like get drunk and look for someone to s***w. Please excuse that vulgar remark--I'm feeling very discouraged. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>If he would only stay away one night at a time, I would gladly pack him little suppers complete with cookies and fruit and cute little notes. But even I don't think I could face a PB & J made four days earlier and squashed every day since in a 40 lb. backpack. Maybe I'll use that as a threat! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks for backing me up on this, notheard. Sometimes it's hard to tell if I'm being reasonable or not.<p>Rose Red

Pat, you are absolutely right--opportunity and motive are right there in those rotten hotel bars. The real wonder is that this board isn't crawling with airline spouses. I can't believe you and me and Pilot'sWife are the only three.<p>As far as the crews not spending a long time together, that apparently had no effect on my husband. He wasn't looking for anything except a place to put it. His first betrayal was a ONS, his second a ONS which went on for six months. If you can believe it, and I'm not sure I can either, he swears that he hardly ever called the flight attendant in question during the affair, but that she just "showed up" about every couple of weeks or so. She would switch her schedule around to wind up in his cities and worked with him a couple of times, too. Well, ugh, this kind of talk isn't helping me.... [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Trust him, or he needs a new line of work? You know pilots--there is no other work. Or at least mine is that way. I honestly think he'd lose our marriage rather than stop flying. Probably a combination of his identity having been tied up in flying for so long that he'd be unable, unwilling and/or afraid to do anything else, plus as he's reminded me, he "can't earn that kind of money doing anything else." *Sigh.*<p>Pat, how are things for you right now?<p>Rose Red

Beth, thanks for your reply! I hope you don't mind if I answer in the morning--I'm so tired I can hardly think. Just got off the phone with H. Whaddaya know, he isn't going to the bar. He says.....<p>Rose Red

Hi Rose Red,
Is it me or what the heck is wrong with a nice dinner in HIS ROOM while watching a wholesome movie to wind down???????? I don't get it?<p>To me, and I could be misunderstanding something, it seems that he could even order his food and then take it up to his room? I don't understand how come he has to fraternize with the crew/flight attendants, and everybody?<p>Do you think the drinking is the main problem? People who drink don't like to drink alone. So maybe he should just give up the beer altogether? Easier said, huh? Oh well...<p>I'm sure this didn't help, but I don't see where your insecurity is irrational on this and I don't see why he can't be willing to "unwind" within the comfortable confines of his hotel room--ALONE!?!<p>Seems to me like hanging out in the bar with coworkers would get someone wound UP instead of winding down... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh well, it's good that he decided not to go to the bar this time, ey? Go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt and believe him. It's better than stressing out about broken POJA and feeling insecure and suspicious--all negative emotions.

Beth, now that I've had some coffee this morning, I'm a bit more clear-headed. As for a husband who flies cargo, I'm SO jealous...although, of course, a guy who is intent on having an affair can always get something going. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Obviously, that's no guarantee. I wish you didn't have to be here--heck, I wish nobody was here and that Harley had to find a new line of work. Maybe flying... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Were you kidding about the baggage handlers? There aren't female baggage handlers, are there?? Oh, yeah, I just realized there is probably a whole union of female baggage handlers looking for their MRS. certification.... I have it from a former flight attendant neighbor that there are pilot groupies among the flight attendants, just waiting to seduce some horny fool of a pilot. I feel like those women who troll professions for a husband are just leeches! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How much do you trust that he is now fully dedicated to saving the marriage? HOw often does it happen that he actually works with the flight attendent he had the affair with?<hr></blockquote> Well, I guess I feel 80-90% sure that he is totally committed to our marriage. My mom tells me that he had a bad scare on d-day, which "woke him up!" I suppose that's right. He has always been an upstanding type, and I think he's actually embarrassed and ashamed of himself. No garbagy talk about wanting to "explore other relationships," or "be free." [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So far he hasn't had to work with the flight attendant in question since d-day almost six months ago. He put password protection on his schedule (most pilots don't feel the need) so she can't (theoretically) find out where he'll be. Also, he changed domiciles, so it's unlikely that he'll be flying with her. We talked about it, and he agrees that if she shows up on his crew, he'll refuse to fly with her. As the captain, he has that right. I hope and pray it never comes to that--my husband is a conflict avoider. (Hence his failure to tell me that he was unhappy and didn't have SF....) Kicking someone off a crew would require inconvenience and explanation--something I know he doesn't want to do. It seems likely that he would just grit his teeth, make up some rationalization (no time, I'll just ignore her, etc., etc.,) and go on with the flight as planned.<p>He's only had one contact with her since d-day. She called his hotel room, and he hung up on her without talking to her. Still can't figure out how she knew where to call, unless one of her flight attendant friends saw him and alerted her. This event makes me a little nervous, but why tell me anything if it wasn't the truth?<p>Yes, I do think drinking is an issue, maybe a minor side issue. I don't think my husband is by nature a heavy drinker. I guess in his mind he is a connisseur because he only likes dark (very dark) beer and is knowledgeable about exotic beer and brewing. I think he did drink too much during his affair, however, and I worry about that some, especially now that its evident that he isn't as strong as he thought he was. And yes, I definately think there is too much drinking among military pilots--probably because of that macho thing. I can't say for sure about professional pilots, don't really have any personal observations. But I for one would be delighted if the FAA banned drinking 24 hours prior to flight.<p>Your idea about the web site was a good one--too bad nobody who's done it successfully has built one. Maybe if we get through this I can make it, or you. Frankly, if the marriage recovers I'll consider myself a survivor of the trenches of traveling spousehood, not just somebody whose husband was always virtuous.<p>How do you feel about your husband's protestations of innocence? Could you get past this last episode if you felt sure that he was committed to the marriage now? I can't offer advice here because I'm sure mine would be wrong. I think you and Pat are much stronger than I am about this. My husband knows if he steps a toe out of line again, it's over. Probably that's why I am afraid to lay down the law about visiting the bars. If I made it a deal-breaker and he crossed the line, I'd have to quit the marriage. I don't want to do that--my husband has been plan A'ing me so nicely for months that I actually have fallen back into love with him. Our relationship is better now than before the A, except for occassional upsets like this one. Plus, sometimes nasty triggers get me, like this one.<p>Beth, I do hope you come to Nashville, and that I can come hear you sing. I'm reluctant to tell my husband this because I think he'll snort at me for meeting someone I met over the internet--even on MB! Or maybe even be upset. He can't stand being exposed as an unfaithful husband. Would it be totally weird to meet me without my real name???<p>Hope your day is going well!<p>Rose Red

BtDt, you are the most faithful responder to my posts, and believe me, I've come to think that "faithful" is the highest praise you can give anyone!<p>You must be a genius! Why didn't I think of asking him to take his dinner back up to his room??? What am I, an idiot? I thought I'd considered all the options, but this one might have some effect. He could order with the co-pilot and visit while he waited, then breezily take his dinner and leave. That would be wonderful if he would do it. I'm going to suggest this to him when he comes home tomorrow (after suitable time to be loving and affectionate, of course).<p>As I told Pilot's wife, I do think drinking is an issue. I'm not sure how much of one, though. If he was taking his supper back to his room, he might consider foregoing the beer. At any rate, I could put it to him that this was for a limited time, which it probably is. Besides, the more time that goes by, the fewer p.m. trips he will have to fly. When he flies a.m. trips he's ready for bed by 10 o'clock, and I can "tuck him in" with a phone call, so it's not as much of a worry.<p>You know, so much of this is just mental games. Can I be sure that he doesn't lie about going to sleep all the while sitting around in aftershave, waiting to go pick up some bimbo in the bar as soon as our phone call is over? No. Can I be sure that he drank only 2 beers? No. How can I know that he didn't see OW looking hot in a too short skirt and too much makeup at the bar? Or sleep with her? I can't, so in a way all this talking on the phone is pointless. It's not like a stay-at-home husband whose whereabouts you can track fairly well if you try hard enough. But, hey, I'm human. I ask him over and over if he'll remain faithful even though he's lied to me in the past. I want the reassurance, even knowing that it may be a lie. Same with those phone calls. And I will act as though I believe him about staying in his room, which I mostly do (95%). Anything beats another round of suspicion and anxiety, and those little voices saying "He's really having another affair! He's gonna hurt you!!" (Not real voices, just my worse nature. Don't want you to think I've lost it! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>BtDt, how are you doing?? I hope your day is a good one. You have helped me a lot!<p>Rose Red

Don't put up with it. If he loved you enough, he would know how his other a. started and he would RESPECT you enough to find somewhere else to eat. It's time to think about you, your happiness, and your children. Tell him-this is what I want and if you can't give it, than this is how it has to be. That's the best thing I've learned in therapy. You can't make his decisions for him, but you can tell him what you want and you can control what you will and won't accept.

Rainefall, I appreciate your POV, and yes, ideally he would respect and love me "enough" to do exactly as I'd like. Don't forget, though, that he is the WS. He may NOT love me enough to completely comply, at least not yet. This is about rebuilding a delicate bridge between us--not announcing what I will and will not accept. After all, it was pretty much a given that an affair was unacceptable, but he had one.<p>I don't want to make this a drawing a line in the sand issue. I want to find some mutally satisfying solution which meets my need for honesty and reassurance from him.<p>Would I like to say, "Hey, bub, do it my way, or hit the highway!!"? YES!!! Just don't think that would get me where I want to go! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks Rainefall!<p>Rose Red

I'd say this is a perfect place for a POJA. There is always room for negotiations, but it would require the two of you to sit down and do it right and both be willing to compromise and be creative until you find the answer that works for both you you. Read the POJA example in SAA again, it will give you ideas I bet.

Rosered,<p>Many moons ago when my H and I first got married I took a job as a flight attendent. Didn't last longer then 6 months, I hated being away from my H for even one night.<p>I took with my those little dinners like ravioli or tuna with packaged mayo and crackers. You do not have to go out to eat. Most hotel rooms come with microwaves.<p>Try packing his flight bag with some of those things. Say something like " I packed these for you so you wouldn't have to go out and get something to eat I know how little time you have and you can get more rest." Or something along those lines.
Just a suggestion but it might work. Also if he continued to go to the bars you would have a little more to go on.<p>Music

I don't know....my H. enjoys the attention of these "other crew members". Many of them are looking for a wealthy H and don't care if they are married and have 4 kids. <p>He also drinks too much...shouldn't be drinking at all. But the drinking combined with people who are morally bankrupt...what do you think will happen.<p>I think there are plenty of pilots who do honor their marriages. My husband's ego was too big and he thinks he is really something because all these women want to go to bed with him. He thinks that is so neat. I don't think he will ever see what he has lost here. And, at this point, I don't think he cares. <p>I don't know if I could trust him anymore....the temptations in his career are too much for him...and I don't think he will get over it until his "son doesn't rise any longer". I don't think I will wait for that. <p>I am sorry I didn't marry someone with the same ideas about marriage and commitment that I hold. He has lied to me and cheated on me too many times. He has devasted me and my kids....and I don't think I will get over it this time.<p>The hotel situation was bad for a man like my H. And it destroyed our marriage and our family.

Hi RR,
I DO watch out for you esp. after that thong incident. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Your dilemma really touched my heart. So I guess I have a soft spot for you there.<p>I was thinking about your H and the PEER PRESSURE thing he could possibly be under. That's what it really sounds like to me? You know how it is with people you work with--especially the ones who drink. They seem to suck you right in with their, "Come on! Let's go have a drink!" Next thing you know, there you are! Unless you are strong enough to just say "NO THANKS! I'm not in the mood."<p>Maybe his coworkers sort of expect him to hang out and if he doesn't maybe they rag on him? You know how guys can be? Most of my career, I have worked around men and they are ruthless when it comes to accusing each other of being henpecked. So many rebels out there...<p>I'm glad to hear that your H is committed to working things out with you. SAD to read that other thread about how you found out through OW. YUCK! But it's like you said, in spite of the hurt, you felt empowered. I agree. Still, for some reason, it makes me wonder if his "friends" from work are not contributing to his rebellion... for lack of a better word...(?)<p>ALL MY TROUBLE STARTED with those stupid office parties where everyone EVERYONE drinks way too much--to the point where all the men are touchy feely as if it is their right because you're standing there. I had to quit those long ago even if it is EXPECTED of everyone to make appearances. Peer pressure--it never ends.<p>All through life, we are constantly having to take a stand for what we believe, constantly having to protect ourselves from our weaknesses, constantly fighting against temptation, but the rewards are worth it when we do the right thing, huh!?

Thank you ScaredinNY and MusicMW! This continues to be an ongoing problem, so I really appreciate the insight.<p>SINY, I agree, it does sound like the perfect opportunity for POJA, except for one problem: how can I get him to follow the POJA since he's out of town? He is such a conflict avoider that I suspect he would agree to POJA in order to avoid an argument, and then when he was flying he'd think of a "good reason" to break the POJA. He doesn't so much lie to me about a lot of stuff (I think.. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ), but he does "change his mind." I think this type of thinking helped lead him to his affair as well, besides some other junk.<p>Maybe I should go back and re-read POJA. Theoretically, we would both agree, so that he would be more likely to keep his end, right? But what do I do if there is broken POJA? I'm afraid of the disappointment, to be honest. Everytime we have an argument that roller coaster gets cranked up and I start thinking I want out of the marriage, even though I think our recovery in enviable in many ways. Hey, now I'm talking like a conflict avoider!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] And I always just jumped right into the fray! He's rubbing off on me. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>MusicMW, I'll definately look around at the grocery next time I go to see what he might consider having for dinner instead of "bar du jour." That's a good idea. I'd never be able to pull off suggesting that I was getting convenience foods so that he could get more rest, though. This has become such an issue that he'd see right through me--I doubt I could even keep a straight face. That would be like if he bought me a lacy panty and garter set, and said he thought he saw a runner in my panty hose, so I might need this. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As a former flight attendant, do you think it's accurate about some flight attendants looking for a pilot? I heard this from another former f.a. It gives me the creeps, but of course, I know that there are lots of nice, married and honest f.a.'s also. But whenever we've been at the airport together, some gaggle of blonde f.a.'s usually strolls by and carols "Hi, husband!" in a sickening way, and makes me want to scream. (At husband, of course!)<p>Thanks for your reply, Music!<p>Rose Red<p>p.s. BtDt, got to run, but will reply later! So glad to see your letter!

I think part of the joint agreement will be for a phone call or phone contact - does he have a cell phone that you can call and check or a pager? he should be able to call you back right away. I think you need to decide in your mind what the consequence should be but don't tell him because you want to come from a perspective that this is a positive thing and it will work - don't even let him think you are doubting it will. But be ready if it doesn't. <p>Have you read "Boundaries in Marriage" by Henry Claude and John Townsend? It is a very good book that talks about choices, boundaries, and consequences. <p>The idea is to make it more of a hassle for him to have an affair. If he is having one and he has to return your page or call you when the flight lands and when he arrives at his room it just makes it a hassle. Is it then impossible? no, there are no guarantees but it is just not so easy for him. Plus it reminds him of the damage he has done to the marriage and hopefully he will reconsider before doing it again. . <p>Remember when you have your talk about the POJA that it is about saving the marriage and rebuilding trust - not punishing or trying to control. Let him come up with other creative ways to solve this besides going to a bar. <p>I won't comment about flight attendants and pilots but I will tell you there are women out there who are out specifically looking for a married man. Its crazy, but it is reality . <p>If you are with your H and some woman says: "Hi, husband!" ask him to call her over and introduce her to you. He should be proud you are his wife. <p>It is all part of rebuilding your security in the marriage.

I think when you are strong enough, you will draw the lines. You can accept bits and pieces here and there for now, but for how long? I'm sorry if I sounded pushy with my post. You know even if you say what you want, then he knows. You don't have to tell him you'll leave if it's not, but let him know what you want. One of the biggest problems people have is that they think their spouse should know what they need and want, they don't know until you tell them. I hope that helps, if not someone else surely will. Go with the packed lunches and then write him a letter saying, "this is what I would like". I did that with my h. Of course he didn't do what I would have liked, but then I knew that he knew.