I just want to share some stuff with you in here. My affair went on for about 2 years while I was working abroad. What started out as something just for fun became an extremely painful experience for me, her, wife and family. I agree with Katie Scarlett, for you to end the affair effectively you have to do it for your OWN reasons. It may not be enough or convincing for a person to end an affair just because it is a morally wrong thing to do. If they honestly believed that, they wouldn&#8217;t have affairs in the first place. Besides many WS (me included) and OP have and will attempt to justify their actions one way or another. As a WS, we are not able to fully identify the pain we put BS through especially since we don&#8217;t feel the same way about them and seems to think that our pain from the marriage and prospects of letting OP go far exceeds theirs. <p>First of all, don&#8217;t believe everything WS says. For almost a year , I lied to the OW about my marital status. After I told her I was married with 2 kids, I went on to lie that I was separated and was going to get a divorce. While it was true that my marriage was empty and dead (BS was aware of that too) from before I met her, there was never any mention of divorce (though in my mind that&#8217;s what I believed would happen). In fact the plan at the start was for wife and kids to come out and join me once my job was settled. I lied to her family as well, I even told them what my intentions with her was. Its true, that&#8217;s the extend of lies WS tells to maintain the affair, not just to BS but to OP as well. So yeah you don&#8217;t really know what really is going on on the other side.<p>Cut loose before its too late. After being starved from having my ENs met for years, to be with someone who can satisfy all of them and more made me feel blissfully happy and alive once again. Whether it was &#8216;fog&#8217; (something I don&#8217;t particularly subscribe to), pure chemistry or addiction, I was crazy about her. Bit by bit we fell in love with each other. Two years into the affair, I knew I had to end my marriage, wanted to be with her, didn&#8217;t want to loose her. I believe she felt the same way. Although our personalities fit like gloves, we both knew that I was not the &#8216;right person&#8217; for her. Single, beautiful 26 year old career woman vs 35 year old married man with 2 kids and a lot of emotional and financial baggage. Half-hearted and unwilling, I tried to explain this to her &#8211; that I was soiled sheet, but at the same time told her that things will work out. Her friends and family probably tried to convince her that she deserved someone a lot better, why settle for something difficult & painful but it didn&#8217;t help. We were in way too deep and felt that our love was worth the risks. If yours is a EA and a PA then the longer you wait the harder it gets to cut loose. If u have feelings for this man and start wanting more from him, then breaking up tomorrow will hurt more than today. <p>Lowest point of my life when the affair ended. My whole life turned upside down. When I told wife than I wanted to be divorced, she expressed her feelings for me; which came as a complete surprise, and could not accept that I would end things without trying to make it work. The amount of pressure by my family and relatives was more than I could handle. I told OW I had to give my marriage once last shot and couldn't be with her, she was devastated. We still saw each other for 2 months, in that short period we broke up and then got back together a few times, I couldn't take it not seeing or hearing from her. But it got to a point that I couldn't take it anymore, every time I was with her, I was reminded of what I was walking away from. That hurt more than anything, even more than not seeing her. By that time she accepted the fact that I was going back to wife and in some paradoxical manner encouraged me too. Perhaps she did it to convince herself more than me. I knew just by talking to her on the phone I was retarding her recovery. So one day I sent her a no contact letter. She could not understand why we could not just be friends. How do you explain to someone you love that u don&#8217;t want to see or even speak to them again. I didn&#8217;t do it for me or BS, I did it for her. That 3 mth period I got by with 3-4 hours sleep a day. I completely lost it, fell into depression and had suicidal thoughts. I left and went back home. This was a year ago. If I knew the kind of pain I put us all through I would have ended things 4 mths into the affair. But of course it wasn&#8217;t meant to end up like this. <p>I read these boards to seek an understanding of the whole dynamics of relationships, marital and affairs. It&#8217;s not often that we get an OP posting in here. I just wanted to share this with you. Of course not all WS is as selfish as me but there you go. Whether you are here to help save his marriage, it doesn&#8217;t really matter. That's his problem, not yours, if he wanted to, you could tell him to come in here. You honestly have to think about what&#8217;s best for you and your kid first above anyone else. The OP seems to have the shorter end of the stick most of the time. During the 8 mths of no contact, I thought of her a lot, love her and constantly had to remind myself why I am doing this. My marriage didn&#8217;t improve, we now both accept this and are trying to dissolve it as admicably as possible. But despite this, I still end up hurting her didn&#8217;t I?

painforever...<p>I hope that you have a Happy Holiday season...<p>It is hard to look into the face of the monster and find ourselves...but the rewards will be many...<p>My wish is that you are reaping the rewards of your courageous and difficult acts...

PF,
Thank you so much for what you wrote. Not one word of it was news to me, but is was good to read.<p>I am honestly loathed to post on this particular topic for fear that people will think that I am boasting. So I hope that the tenderhearted will stop reading at this point.<p>That notwithstanding, I loved my MM very much. In time, with his help, the one thing that I came to really really understand was that I needed to take care of myself. That is was not his resposibility to make/keep me happy. To take what it was that I needed/wanted from that relationship and leave the rest. It was a beautiful (if limited) relationship, and this much time later I don't regret it. I feel guilty that I dont regret it, but I don't.<p>It was what I needed at that time in my life. And now I need something different. And so that's what i'm pursuing.<p>xMM is in a lot of pain. And while I feel bad about that, it's not my job to heal that for him. He is sad in his marriage. (And i'm sure that his W is too). It is no longer my job to be the band-aid for his pain. For a long, long time I honestly didn't mind. I got to live me life, date, keep him as a friend/lover and play at commitment. I didn't want "the real thing" there was NO WAY that I could have handeled it.<p>I now understand that it was unfair to his wife and children. At the same time there is a corner of my mind that feels like that was his responsibility - not mine. <p>More and more these days I get the idea of esteemable actions and global community. That in helping create an environment where his children/wife were wounded and sad, I helped create sadness for the planet and ultimately for myself.<p>Understanding this allowed me to see my way clear to end the affair. And now my affair is done. But my love for him is not. That I will carry forever. And I sincerely hope that he finds a way to heal his life and his family. I know that I am finding a way to heal mine.<p>Anyway, thank you SO much for your words. Have a blessed and peaceful holiday season.<p>KS

In reading both of these posts, the thing I am touched with is the depth of emotion contained within them.<p>As Painforever stated, "what started out as fun, became ... painful" and Katie states: "my affair is done. But my love for him is not. That I will carry forever."<p>It is obvious (to me) that both of these people are expressing a sincere "feeling" of love for their respective former - can't think of a word, other than "lovers." <Sorry, all><p>The feelings run DEEP. It's real. It's painful when it has to end, and yes, it DOES have to END one day. It's illicit. It's immoral.<p>These two posts should serve as a lesson to all that A's are a painful, messy, ugly business that is best RUN AWAY from at the outset, rather than engaged in. There's NO GOOD way out of them. Everyone is hurt. For a long time.<p>I'm so sorry to read about your pain, folks, but thank you for sharing it. I cry for my own H's future. He can't handle "conditions of the heart" like this, and I'm quite sure he doesn't see THIS coming.<p>Please try to have a happy and blessed holiday.<p>Lupo

I have shared this point before and would like to share it again. Love is a word casually used and often abused in its interpretation. <p>I also once cared for a MM, still do in fact. I was only 20 years old. But you know, it was the love that I learned from my parents and God that helped me thorugh that time. I did not know I had an EA. Did not know about MB. But I did know that the europhia type love that I had for this separated and then divorced MM was not right. It conflicted with the good love that I had for my god, family and friends. I was only 20 years old. <p>To this day, I do not regret giving him up. Why? Because I know it was the right thing to do for the both of us. Whether he choose to stay in his marriage or not was his choice. I knew that even then. <p>I loved him enough and he cared for me enough to allow me to give him up and he respected my wishes. Even when we accidently ran into each other 20 years later, the same feelings of......love came back along with the same feelings of respect. <p>For all the WS and OPs out there, do you have that kind of love and respect for the other person? If you do, then your feelings are true and out of that love you will do the right thing. Anything less is selfish and that is when pain is brought on others including the WS and OP. <p>I am forever indebit to my parents for instilling in me the love of God. It was that single thought that helped me then and it is helping me now. It is not an abstract teaching to me or some simple phrases to be recited by rote. Nope, my love for God is real and affects how I make my decisions for myself and family. <p>I have learned that when I tell someone, I love them, I'd better mean it because I have to answer to God if I lie. <p>JMHO,
L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by lupolady:
<strong>
These two posts should serve as a lesson to all that A's are a painful, messy, ugly business that is best RUN AWAY from at the outset, rather than engaged in. There's NO GOOD way out of them. Everyone is hurt. For a long time.
Lupo</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Lupo,
Thank you for your response. I agree with everything that you said. <p>Here's the thing (and again I am loathed to post this).<p>I gained more in this relationship than I ever lost. Far more! I loved more boldly, more deeply, more fearlessly. Those feelings were amazing and valid. The part that was invalid, was that while I was gaining, there were those that were loosing.<p>It's so hard for me to understand that while I had this magical (and extraordinaryly hard) relationship, there were those who were severely suffering at the same time. <p>I have lived a life that is ALL about me. And I have loved it. But it's immature and short-sighted. And the time has come for me to think more expansively.

Ktie scarelett, I cannot help but say... it is part your fault that his wife and children were hurt--- you were part of it, and you willingly chose to hurt his family. I cannot understand ws, you want to say that this is H's, or ws's responsibiliyt, not theirs, you encouraged morrally wrong behavior. I feel for you, but cannot understand the evil root of a woman's behavior to hurt a man, who she claims to care for by confusing him more than he already was... and to further deteriorate a sacred thing as marriage.. when a man mm, has an open problem to you in the future... not just you any ow or ow.... do the right thing... encourage your friend to work it out at home where it belongs, adding fuel to the fire is simply immoral wrong and of low character.<p>I feel for the OWs , one of my best friends is an ow, and I am not as open to her on my feelings- but she herself has expressed how wrong she feels about what she does... with her MM, I know it and you know it, wrong is wrong is wrong.<p>I am sorry, I know my anger speaks... but put yourself in the wives position... however you can never imagaine the true pain without being the wife and mother... who is hurt by allof this.<p>ESPECIALLY THE KIDS< THE LEGACY OF ADULTERY MUST BE STOPPED>>> LETS GET MORAL WORLD!<p>thanks, honey [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

You're right honey. I cannot imagine being a W. It is honestly beyond me. I was never one of those girls who dreamed of her wedding and all that jazz. And now at 31 it's just beyond what I can imagine. <p>I am, however a mother, and would do anything to protect my child. Maybe that's how you feel about your marriage [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] ? I have no idea.<p>I have a friend and co-worker who is comtimplating cheating. She and I have had long talks about the reality of being a WS. And I have encouraged her not to do it. Ultimately though, each person must make their own decision on this one.<p>I have been the wayward partner, betrayed partner and the other person. Frankly, being OP is by FAR the easiest. The other 2 (IMHO) are tied.<p>God Bless you Honey in your journey of recovery.

Hi, KS. Just a thought here, regarding how you would do anything to protect your child, and wondering if that is how it would be to try to protect your marriage. What if your son (you have a boy, don't you?) came to you as an adult, telling you he had fallen in love with the most wonderful girl, who loved him too. You met her, she WAS wonderful and best of all, seemed completely starry-eyed about your son. They got married, with your blessing. After a couple of bliss-filled years, your son lost his job (or had some other traumatic event) and your daughter-in-law was right there for him. She loved him, encouraged him and told both of you how much faith she had in his abilities. He was able to get another job, and loved and praised his wife for being such a strength for him when he was faltering.<p>A couple of years later, your daughter-in-law was struck by illness and spent months in discomfort and pain. Your son did everything he could for her, taking her to different doctors, comforting her, helping her to be hopeful and physically caring for her until finally, her problem was diagnosed and she began to recover. She was so grateful, and they were now a mature couple, having weathered some storms together. After a few years, they began talking about having a family. There were some problems, but while they were doing fertility work, your son came to you and unhappily told you that the wonderful girl seemed to be drifting away from him. He didn't know why, he tried everything he could think of to reach her, and she was increasingly cold and unresponsive. This went on for several months, with him growing more sad and desperate. Your daughter-in-law treated you dismissively, but treated your son callously and heartlessly. Several times, your son called you late at night to open his heart to you, and seeing him so confused and sad made you miserable, too.<p>Finally, one day, you were out to lunch with friends when you saw your daughter-in-law at a small table with a young man. They were holding hands and laughing, leaning across the table to kiss. As you stared at them, she gave this other man the same starry-eyed gaze she had once given your son. You left the restaurant abruptly, but later confronted her. In reply to your questions about how she could ever hurt your son, whom you thought both of you loved, she answered that she had made a "choice" which made her more happy, and that she sincerely wished your son could find happiness like she had. When you tried to remind her that she at least owed it to your son to divorce him before beginning an affair, she said that she "didn't want to hurt him," and so didn't tell him. Furthermore, she would try to be nicer to your son, and maybe the marriage could get better, but she refused to give up her new lover since they had something really "special."<p>*****<p>As a mother of two precious sons myself, I only know that I would feel blind rage at someone who cruelly used my son and then emotionally abandoned him when it suited her. And I know I could not feel as much pain as my son could feel if his wife betrayed him. Now, I'm not trying to elicit a lot of fake sentiment for a made-up couple, but only to show that yes, other people are hurt when one person acts to satisfy their own needs without regard to other people. If you cannot imagine being a wife, you can at least imagine how grieved you would be if the person suffering was someone you cared for deeply. The story I made up is loosely based on some things that happened to my husband and myself, as well as some of the other things I've read on this site. Plus, I know from my own parents that they have struggled to forgive my husband for what he did to me (their beloved daughter, who is to them what your son is to you), and also what he did to our children (took a very significant risk that they would lose the stable home they have enjoyed in exchange for a shared time arrangement, with all the mess and insecurity that goes with that). And all for what? That he could enjoy some fun with another woman. There are a couple of MB'ers who are the mothers of OW, who post here with unhappiness that their children are involved in affairs, like gottruth? The pain from adultery ripples out into the family and the community.<p>Rose Red

Red Rose,<p>I hear what you're trying to say. Yes I do have a son. <p>Here's the thing though. I teach my son that nothing (no person, no thing) belongs to you. It all belongs to God. Gifts from god. They are all given for a limited amount on time. So the growth is in learning to love and appreciate God's gifts with open arms.<p>Some have children (they are not ours). Some have spouses, houses, pets, cars, money, whatever. NONE of it belongs to us. All loaner's from God.<p>There is no question that I would be hurt and angry if ANYBODY hurt me son. But I hope that I have taught my son to enjoy God's gifts in the moment. Because NOTHING is promised.<p>So in the senerio that you gave I would recommend that he make God his higher power (not his wife or his relationship with her). To fight for his marriage. To to everything within his power to preserve that relationship. And to continue to try and grow with this women. <p>Failing that, release her with love. Offer her guilt-free love, light and happiness. Then let her go. Grieve. Get a good therapist. Have a divorce ceremony. And when the timing is right began a search for his next teacher.

Oh and one more thing.<p>In time xMM and I understood and discussed the fact that our relationship was time limited. We had a really beautiful (and difficult) good-bye ritual. I don't know what else to call it.<p>Later I sent a confession letter to his wife. Kind of a major LB to him as I had no idea how that action would be received. But it was part of what I needed to do to let got.<p>Right before Christmas I got a message from him that basically said "...I understand...I'm not mad. Have a beautiful life."<p>For me release is/was possible. But then again, i'm not a W.

<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Bunny ]</p>

Scarlett,<p>
__________
RE: So in the senerio that you gave I would recommend that he make God his higher power (not his wife or his relationship with her). To fight for his marriage. To to everything within his power to preserve that relationship. And to continue to try and grow with this women. <p>Failing that, release her with love. Offer her guilt-free love, light and happiness. Then let her go. Grieve. Get a good therapist.
__________<p>Katie, do you think that this is any different that what anyone here is doing? This is certainly part of my appoarch to life and that of many people here on MB.<p>
What do you see as different? Just curious.

Z,
Truth be told, I guess it's not that different than what many of the people here are trying to do. When I first came here the thing that was most striking to me was people saying things like "s/he belongs to me...I will never let go." Maybe not so much in those words, but expressing that idea.<p>That's scary and sad to me. <p>Too, is not not my job to determine the "give up" point for others. I see people here on MB going though things that i'd like to think i'd never do. I say "like to think" because I don't know. <p>Reading here I often wonder "at what point do you cut your losses." There are those for whom happiness is not everything. In the question of "would you rather be right or happy" I see people here who (it seems) would MUCH rather be right. Personally, I'm firmly committed to happiness.

&#8230;&#8230; &#8220;Why didn't you just think that your kids would be ok if you divorced? You could just share custody and eventually your famiy would accept the OW? <p>My WS has faced all the same pressures and espouses tremendous love for his 3 sons and girl on the way, but thinks that the kids will just get used to living at his house for a week and then my house for a week. (OW has 2 kids too) He knows his parents disapprove but know that even if he killed someone they would still love and accept him. He also knows that he's lost respect in this company and that many people feel divorcing his pregnant wife is horrible but - hey everybody does it so it's just an acceptable risk to be with someone that makes him happy.
Just wondering why those arguments didn't work for you. &#8220;<p>I believed that with the cooperation of both parents my kids would be ok if I divorced. If both parents worked together, explained the situation to them clearly, try to keep things as normal as possible, not use the kids against one another and try their best to be a good parent, they would be ok. It is not the most ideal of situation and it will hurt them, children are resilient. But while they might not be a reason to stay, they are a reason to try. That was what she wanted, a chance, the kids and the last 10 years deserved it.

To Painforever -
"Although children are not a reason to stay - they are a reason to try"
That is the best explination of "why" I've ever heard.
You are a good man.

I'll second that. My WS has to keep telling me that he's not a bad person, I wonder why he feels that need ........... K

KS, Unfortunately you are wrong about marriage.. it is promised, and sacred, until death do you part... HAVe you ever heard marriage vows?<p>HONEY

Honey,
Even the bible says that you are allowed divorce due to infidelity. That it is the one thing that will break the vows. Doesn't mean it's moral and the WS is the one who must settle with God - but it does state that.

Okay, well ... this whole thread certainly makes me feel like a freak of nature.<p>painforever, from a subjective standpoint, I don't understand why you could possibly have feelings for the OW that you do. But from an objective standpoint, I do - I know these things happen. They just don't happen - and will never happen - to someone like me.<p>Is there anyone else on this planet aside from myself who is physically repulsed by a MP who attempts to "make a move?" I don't care if the MM was a dead ringer for Harrison Ford. In fact, I wouldn't care if the MM *was* Harrison Ford. It still gives me the creeps. <p>I've really revised what constitutes attraction, in my book. Physical and mental attraction, for me, begin on a very fundamental level: pureness of spirit. If a single or married man even *contemplated* making a move on me, I would be totally repulsed by them because they would be showing me from the very start that they are not pure. <p>Yes, I'm weird that way. And in a way, I'm glad that I don't understand.<p>belld