Dear painforever and scarlet, <p>I can relate to you both.... thank you for your emotionally charged letter, painforever.... you put into words many of the things I have been feeling... but am now on my way to recovery...don't you wish we could just 'turn back time'? I'm not quite sure what I would change at this point.<p>And scarlett, I suppose we block out the other people involved... and begin a selfish journey during an illicit affair... it had been sooo many years since I had been selfish and not worried about EVERYONE else, that I was swept away.<p>I did want to say something about the LEGAL contract of marriage....YESSSSSSSSSS< we all know what is the 'right thing' to do in our minds...we know what is morale...what is 'best for all involved'.....IF our brains were the only thing involved....we would ALL know what to do. But...when our hearts are involved....it gets a bit fuzzy.... when we crave a deep satisfying love...a spiritual connection....or just any type of connection that has been denied us...and we THINK we MIGHT have found something, anything close to it..its very hard to give it up. Romanticizing and fantacizing about it doesnt help either....thats not the real life...however,many WS find themselves doing just that.<p>I don't often write in this forum...but i read it quite often. I guess I feel like I have a double whammy against me here....both a WS and OW...sighh... I was NOT brought up to be either...and have deep shame about it...
but...for the sake of my kids...my H....and myself, I am moving on and my M is becoming stronger.<p>Thanks again, painforever and scarlett.... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Neither one of you are BAD people, just humans trying to find happiness.....

It's just a shame that finding this happiness has to come at the expense of other people. You know not all BS’s are horrible, non-loving types who drive the WS’s away after years of the WS giving selfishly. If you would read many of the stories here you will see that many of the BS are the very ones who have been carrying the brunt of the marriage for years while the WS is out playing around. <p>I can understand that perhaps in your case, ConfusedMom, your needs were neglected for years. Some affairs on based on this. But others are based on pure selfishness, period. I find it very hard to give ‘atta boys’ to WS who fall into this category. I also cannot give ‘atta boys’ to OP whose entire purpose of interfering with a marriage is to get what they want at the expense of other people. Sometimes we have to call a spade a spade. My ex-h is not a ‘good person’ looking for happiness. He was, and is, a mean selfish person willing to use anyone who suits his purpose. Some people are just like that. Why do we as a society have such a hard time calling it like it is? Why do we have to ‘make nice’. <p>
You know what. Everyone would like happyness in their lives. Some of us just wish that others did not think that to find their happyness they had to lie to us and trash us. Infidelity is about RESPECTING other people. Using the excuse of love to hurt others is the biggest bunch of nonsense. It's an excuse as old as the hills but it is still nonsense. <p>There are many people who can feel love yet not hurt others based on it.<p>My parents taught me a lesson that I pass on to my kids. A person behaves badly when they intentionally continue to do things that hurt other people. And a person is only as good as the worst thing they do. Yes we can all make amens over time. It takes time.<p>You know what.. I give up...<p>In some people's world everyone is a 'good person' no matter what they do, no matter how many people they harm. Adolf Hitler was only looking for happyness too so he is an ok guy too.<p>In my world people are help responsible for their actions. That is why I do not do many things no matter how misserable I've gotten at time. Because I hold MYSELF responsible for my behavior. And believe me I have been as lonely, neglected, abused, tempted, yada yada yada as any OP or WS. I have simply choosen to not willingly be an OP or a WS. It is all in our choices. No one is forced to be an OP or WS, they CHOOSE the behavior of their own free will.<p>So let's just agree to disagree and move on.<p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

not to crash the post or anything, I have read this entire point, and I hav a couple things to say. 1) marriage is a contract, whether legal or emotional it don't matter, When I married my wife, it's because I wanted to share the rest of my life with her. Now at this point, I (yes I am admitting to it, I did not meet her ENs like I should have) Since then she has moved out, now she is living with OM, and it looks like we are heading for D, But it doesn't mean I'm going to give up, I believe M is forever, and I am willing to do whatever it takes to make our M work. But it is now in her court, I f she wants OM, fine If she wants D fine, until those papers are signed, I'm going to try to strengthen or M, and if it ends in D, Then at least I will have tried.<p>But hey, thats my opinion.

Torizo,<p>Thank goodness for men like you.<p>Estes

E49, Thanks, If you would like more info on my situation go to:
Someone please help us<p>thats the extent of the problem. now to solve it.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zorweb:
<strong><p>
You know what. Everyone would like happyness in their lives. Some of us just wish that others did not think that to find their happyness they had to lie to us and trash us. Infidelity is about RESPECTING other people. Using the excuse of love to hurt others is the biggest bunch of nonsense. It's an excuse as old as the hills but it is still nonsense. <p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree with zorweb. Have you ever noticed that the people who set out searching for happiness are always the most unhappy people of all? That is because happiness is not the result of satisfying every indulgence, no matter how evil or destructive, but the result of LIVING RIGHT. It is the result of being good, working hard, meeting responsibilities, being decent and treating others in a decent and humane way. <p>What utterly astonishes me is the numerous WSes on this website who claim they were only "seeking happiness" [via "soulmates"] - yet they are utterly miserable SOB's. [and so are the people they left in thier destructive paths] That should tell you something right there. Yet they still babble this "seeking happiness" nonsense, like a mindless religious fanatic who thinks that his ever failing methods will somehow "work" this time. That is insanity, doing the same thing over and over and again yet expecting a different result.<p>You know, Jeffrey Dahmer was only "seeking happiness" when he slaughtered all those people. Adolph Hitler was only "seeking happiness" when he killed millions of Jews. Joseph Stalin - the greatest mass murderer in world history - was only "seeking happiness" when slaughtered millions of his own countrymen. <p>The point is that NO ONE finds happiness when they set out to find it, nor does your pursuit of "happiness" justify any and all actions. Because happiness is the RESULT of being good, not the result of being INDULGENT.

Painforever,<p> Thank you very much for your post. It is interesting to see what a WH feels. I am in a dead marriage and have no desire to fix it. I am also in love with a MM.SO many times on these boards the OW is accused of being mean, cruel and desperate. I am none of those. Sometimes it just can't be helped who we fall in love with. I have had MANY oppurtunities to go out with married men, but wouldn't because they were MARRIED. Some guy in my office building just last week casually mentioned "His wife cut him off". YUK! Like I really care! Anyway, my point is sometimes we fall in love without even knowing it. I am sorry you are hurting, but at least you tried to do the right thing. I am just curious, did you really think going back to your wife would work, knowing you were in love with someone else? Or were you just hopeing you could forget about the OW? I have tried many times to break it off with my MM, but just can't seem to sever the ties. I have asked him many times to leave me alone. My h and I plan on legalally separating this year. Thank you again for your input.

To Melody Lane,
You are really off base when you compare anything going on here to Hitler or Dalhmer - they were not "seeking Happiness" but driven by horrible dark forces - I am sure neither would say they were seeking "happiness" but "power".
Be careful when you make such sweeping generalizations - people will judge you as harshly as you judge them. I'm not trying to make you angry - just letting you know what you sound like from my particular point of view.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by renee k:
<strong>To Melody Lane,
You are really off base when you compare anything going on here to Hitler or Dalhmer - they were not "seeking Happiness" but driven by horrible dark forces - I am sure neither would say they were seeking "happiness" but "power".
Be careful when you make such sweeping generalizations - people will judge you as harshly as you judge them. I'm not trying to make you angry - just letting you know what you sound like from my particular point of view.</strong><p><hr></blockquote><p>Renee,<p>Oh dear. Do you not know what an ANALOGY is? I fear my point went right over your head. You need to reread my post. There was no attempt to equate murder with adultery, but to demonstrate a parallel PRINCIPLE - an analogous PRINCIPLE. The principle being that the pursuit of happiness is NOT an inherently good thing, but can be used to conduct evil. The point seems to be lost on you and you have wrongly JUDGED me, which I don't appreciate.<p>And, of course, Hitler, Dahmer, and Stalin were seeking happiness. It is silly to believe that they were seeking "unhappiness;" that is not how people operate. Power might be the goal, but the purpose of that goal is obviously to obtain happiness. Do you not believe that evil people seek happiness too? C,mon...<p>The SOURCE of one's motivation for happiness does not change the nature of the pursuit. Just because one is seeking "happiness" does not mean the source is from a "good" force - obviously adultery in the pursuit of happiness cannot be from a GOOD source. <p>If you need me to clarify further, I would be happy to lay it out in even simpler terms for you. But, be assured, I would never equate an adulterer to a mass murderer and you missed my point by a mile.<p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

MelodyLane <p>I get your analogy... it's a form of conversation in which one uses an analogy that addresses the point but is far out 'there'. It really makes the idea being discussed obvious. It's a good analogy I think.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zorweb:
<strong>MelodyLane <p>I get your analogy... it's a form of conversation in which one uses an analogy that addresses the point but is far out 'there'. It really makes the idea being discussed obvious. It's a good analogy I think.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thankyew, zorweb, at least someone got it! lol

melody, I got it too, but analogies have to follow reasonable usuage principles or are an ineffective form of communication....I call it using the "N" word (nazi)...every point can eventually be compared to nazi, is sorta like bring out the big guns (there is no defense), but the fact is if you carry an analogy to far (and I am guilty to, so am not being sanctimonious) it ceases to have any usefullness. Comparing the pursuit of happiness to nazi atrocities is too much, and makes your point meaningless (although I got your point). All you did is make the point any human trait can be good or bad, and that is kinda a "duh" thingy. However let me hasten to add I find your posts usually tightly reasoned, and you do your homework, that is not always the case here (or anywhere on-line where people debate controversial issues).<p>dahmer and adolph were psychopaths, your ordinary joe/jane who just wants happiness in their life and someone to share it with are not psychopaths...ya know? And relationship happiness is a function of who your partner is, there is no way around that, otherwise it wouldn't make any difference who our partner was...and you don't believe that do ya?<p>btw I have noticed some folks who seek happiness never find it, and seem miserable, but I have noticed also people who take charge of their lives and leave relationships that are not working are often very happy, how is that possible? There are even people on this very board who have done so, and are fine...right? It is not the seeking of happiness that is the issue, that is just what humans do (and should be doing, cause it is how we measure human success), it is HOW we seek the happiness, and WHAT makes us happy that is the issue.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>It is not the seeking of happiness that is the issue, that is just what humans do (and should be doing, cause it is how we measure human success), it is HOW we seek the happiness, and WHAT makes us happy that is the issue.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This was my exact point, snl, that it is HOW we seek it and WHAT we are seeking that counts. I was refuting the point that the simple pursuit of happiness is inherently GOOD and justifies any action - it is NOT. It depends on WHAT it is and by what means. <p>And that is why I used the Dahmer/Hitler/Stalin analogy - as I'm sure you comprehended - to demonstrate that the principle is wrong. And by taking the principle to it's logical extreme, it demonstrated how riduculous the principle really is in practice. The point of the analogy was not focused on the NAZI, but on an ACTION, and would have worked just as well without the Nazi. So the Nazi reference doesn't invalidate my analogy. Thanks for you input, snl, I always appreciate reading your posts.

Jumping in the pot!??!?! Happiness is a realtive state. What one is happy with another is not. <p>There is a great assumption here that the same things make everyone happy. That is not true. <p>As far as the A is concerned, many a OP/WS claim they are happy yet feel guilty and sad. What other lifestyle do these feelings of happiness, guilt and sadness show up in? <p>Is this person using a sound mind? If a lawyer was having an A (which some do), would you want him or her to represent you in trying to save your M or work out a D settlement in favor of the BS and family? What about if it was a doctor? He is testing you for STD yet he is out on the town with every hooker around. Want him as your GYN? So this WS spouse is not a doctor or lawyer what about a engineer, pilot, teacher, janitor, business owner, military officer, insurance salesman, politican, law enforcement officer, babysitter, day care provider, courier, limo driver, salesman, homemaker, etc. Happens you know, most of these titles were taken from your stories right here on MB. I can think of various WS cases for all but 1 of those titles. Hm..... guess which one profession listed has not been listed as a WS yet?<p>So ones method of happiness needs to viewed in the same manner when placing it under discussion. In other words just to say one is striving for happiness doesn't necessarily mean that it is a good thing. <p>To put it simplier, some are happy being selfish. Does that make their type of happiness ok? Well if it brings unhappiness to others, renders them homeless, parentless, partner less, marriageless, penniless and less and less of what belongs to the family.....NOPE that is not true happiness. <p>L.

WELL.................this is EXACTLY why I don't post on here much.........thanks alot zorweb... i will keep my thoughts to myself... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (((((((

I'm wondering if us WS should just go to another website and discuss our pain...it seems to offend others.... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] and how dare u compare me to HITLER, zorweb!!!!!!!!

I understand the confusion with this subject, having entered this site in 1998 as a WS... but as I've been gently told, the harsh words are for UNREPENTENT WS's... not remorseful, apologetic, struggling WS's striving to make better decisions in the "now" and in the future. <p>I will not take these words as personal toward me... and neither should any FORMER WS who is struggling to repair their lives, and that of those they have hurt in their wake.

There seems to be an even bigger problem with using analogies on this forum. Some people just don't "GET" analogies. Zorweb never equated Hitler to an adulterer but was making an analogy. <p>But Sherry, I do agree with your point about the harsh judgments, they are NOT for the WSes who courageously faced their wrongdoing and changed. They are well respected on this forum. It's the ones who try to justify the unjustifiable that are so deeply offensive to any decent person. I have noticed that they even offend the other WS'.

just for the record would the keeper of definitions plz define unrepentant ws, I am getting a complex and need to see if I should just go jump off a building or something. Not that I am paranoid, or think the world revolves around me, but I am wondering.<p>maybe could list a set of questions sort of like a test.<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Melody and Z - it was too drastic - downright "mean" and I believe you both know that. Don't run people off of this site for your own fun - that's cruel.