It might've been a lovebuster - but it was the truth. I'd be applauding that statement if it wasn't so painful.<p>You take care of yourself,
God Bless You,
TNT

it is really hard to refrain...I know calling her is an LB...and calling family would be too...but then she would call him and LB and wouldn't that be fun [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ... (really, I will refrain...promise...)<p>thanks NY...I'm in my own kinda fogdream anyway...finding that it wasn't at all true...coming to grips with reality...we all gotta do this our own way and in our own time...so why does it hurt so much???? why do I feel shattered...all broken to bits?<p>Cali

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>and everytime he does it...more love drains outta the old lovebank...<p>about the my leaving part...I also said I wasn't leaving 'cause I wasn't gonna pay him anything (support)...if he wanted a new life, he could finance it himself...that was pretty bad,eh?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not so bad. Just lettiing him know what reality of separation can mean.<p>Is partnering in equitable finances an important EN of his? If it is, then you pulled a trigger out of your pocket as well. LB? probably.<p>Yet Cali, I am of unwaivering belief that the WS, under almost all cirsumstances, should be the one to leave. If they don't want to participate in the marriage and are active in a third party involvment, they need to pursue that third party relationship outside the warmth and security of the marriage home.<p>Jo

Cali, <p>It is not the OW. It is him. I know this is hard to realize that one of our own family members is being so selfish and stupid. It is highly offensive. <p>When you are 'mulling' this over, remember this. His talk about you 'touching his stuff' is mentally abusive. It is his way of trying to control you. I had to verbally acknowledge that with my H and that is when I took his stuff out the door. When he would question or get angry, I said I was following his request. Not mine his. When that fell on deaf ears, I said I am now moving it out because I can't stand to see it. <p>See the settling point for me is that I could no longer plan A without wanting to kick his but out. The 2 desires were waging a war within me. Making me miserable. Then I figured it out. <p>I needed, I needed to have the OW out of my life. That was what my settling point was. This is what I needed. So me touching his stuff took the back seat. I moved forward and after I did the don't touch my stuff routine with H, I told him touch or not, I NEED THE OW OUT OF MY LIFE & IF THAT MEANS YOU NOT BEING HERE THAN SO BE IT.<p>Ohhhh I was way way past plan A, almost past plan B. Heading straight for plan D and going full steam. I had one focus and one focus only. .... OW had to be out of my life. This meant that anyone that I lived with had to not have association or any contact with OW or anyone of her moral character.. Pretty good? Well it worked for me. <p>You know, that PBR has been trying to call but so far it has been 1 way. How do I feel so sure about it? Well not 100% but H's demeanor, PBR can't hold it in, she likes to dig in when she is not catered to so that is why the calls have been pouring in (over 8 times on 1/1/02 plus others). That's ok, prepping H for filing harrassment charges.....he does see the need but is a conflict avoider. He know he does it or I do it or he is out the door. So much for touching stuff. That is not the main issue any more. <p>So Cali, while you are mulling, figure out where your settling point is and make that the main issue. Your issue needs to be the main one not just his. Acknowledge his then explain why yours is the more serious one. <p>Remember the police can figure this one out in a minute. Give your H our example. It might make him think. If he makes comments about how my H acted as being a jerk, that's ok. He was. Then tell him to go look in the mirror. <p>Hugz,
L.

Hi Cali,<p>Sorry to hear about the mess there. At this point I think you need to find out what you want from your relationship with your husband...and if he is able to give it.<p>I think there comes a point when you have to decide what makes you happy and what you can put up with and what you can't.<p>I reached that point last week...and it is not easy....but neither is living with lies and betrayal.<p>This whole affair situation is devastating...and when it continues...it is unhealthy. Please take care of yourself and your kids. He needs to be the one to leave, he is the one going outside of marital boundaries. He needs to experience life without your support. Just my own $.02.

HI Cali, Just wanted you to know, I am here, and I am sorry you are hurting. I know what it feels like, and when I thought it was over, and found out it was not, well I major lb'ed and that set us back... maybe it is still dying... can you wait? Time can be a miracle worker.. I am sure that it is a major lb for him to be living with you to ow.... <p>Do you really want to lose your marriage..it sounds like the answer is no... but you cannot put up with OW anymore//- maybe you can calmly discuss this... I know he already knows this,... but can you wait a little longer... you may lose your chance to reconcile successfully by not giving it more time... I know it is painful, but time is on your side, and these things die, and he will return to your old H.<p>HUGS< HONEY

"......he just wants us to.....I don't know."<p>....keep living in a comfortable situation where he has no consequences for treating you badly.<p>You are better than that,you've done your absolute best, NO ONE ever does a perfect Plan A, you've Plan A'd far beyond the point of it bringing you any benefits, more Plan A will not solve the problems in your marriage, making your H face the consequences of his behavior will.<p>Plan B is not the end of your marriage. Plan B is a part of a two part plan to save your marriage. Plan A is only HALF of the equation. Move out Cali, it will shock the pants off of him and really give him something to think about. If it doesn't then you're many, many steps closer to becoming whole again on your own, which you need to do regardless of the outcome of your marriage. No matter what, if you Plan B you will be way ahead of where you've been for the past few months.<p>
{{{{{{Cali}}}}}}}

Cali,<p>Just got back home, and was checking in, sorry that your H has pushed you to this position.<p>My thought is that you must do what is in your heart, be it for him to stay and you to accept his behavior or for him to go, and be seperated from his family. I am sure that there are many ways to get him out without involving the police.<p>It doesn't seem fair that he gets to be a cake man. If you are filling his EN what does he need with OW? Send him on his way, let him go to her, he doesn't go as he knows that it probably won't work out with her, but just can't give her up completely. State your limits and boundaries. Don't move out, that is your family home, and he is the one that went outside of the family to find happiness.<p>Another 2 cents worth, add all those up and you might have half a dollar.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Dawn

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
<strong> Move out Cali, it will shock the pants off of him and really give him something to think about. If it doesn't then you're many, many steps closer to becoming whole again on your own, which you need to do regardless of the outcome of your marriage. No matter what, if you Plan B you will be way ahead of where you've been for the past few months.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Cali,<p>I'm starting to think Mthrrhbard may be right on track here. You have done the BEST you have in you, your H now needs to take responsibility and his share of your marriage and make a decision. It has to come from him, his realization, his actions. <p>You're a very dear person, Cali. Anyone who reads your words can see that. Your candor and honesty about yourself and your situation has been inspiring to me and I'm sure to others. I can't see how you could do anything any better than you already have. I really think it's up to him now. <p>We're always here for you. When you get the time I hope you let us know how you're doing. <p>Love,
Jo<p>[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Quote:
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I've been plan A'ing my butt off...
H says he knows I've changed he just doesn't care anymore...why did he have to sin...become STUPID...have an affair for me to change...
God, I HATE that...I'd give anything to know then what I know now...but I didn't...
so I lose my family...my dream because of it? he can't forgive me?
----------------------------------------------------
Cali, please stop this line of thinking. Like anyone else in this world you are taking a shot a stand up comedy. No one, not even you, got a dress rehearsal. From what you have told us, he is as responsible for the deterioration of your marriage as you are. Do you think you are the only one who has needed to charge and grow? I think not. So what does he do.. .instead of looking for an answer and growing… he has an affair.<p>You are not loosing your dream and your family based soley on your own actions. Because of his affair, he has much more then 50% responsible for the current state of your marriage.<p>He is expecting you to forgive and understand him… poor baby. And he cannot give you the same back… it’s a crock.<p>Ok, I agree with Orchid. Except that option 2 is very scary. Do not do move out by your self or with the kids. If you move with the kids it can be called kidnapping. If you move without the kids, it’s abandonment of the kids and your H.<p>But if you ‘visit’ your mom, say, for a few days with the kids to get away from a potentially dangerous situation then that it smart. If I were you, I’d call the police and tell them what is going on and ask what help you can get so that you and your children can safely stay in your home. I would bet that because of his belligerence and continued affair, they could help you. How do you think he would react if the police showed up? Would he loose it? That alone would be enough for a restraining order. I do not know if he is hitting or pushing you around physically. But what he is doing emotionally is far worse then anything MB is meant to handle. I believe that his refusal to leave under these circumstances verges on physical abuse. He certainly is threatening you. How safe do you feel right now?<p>I disagree with those who say you need to plan A some more. My God, how much mental abuse is a person supposed to put up with? Orchid is right… this is ‘Plan Safety’ time. You may also want to call the local abuse hot line. They can be wonderful with support and advice.
Cali, I’m sending you an email with my home phone number. Please call if you need anything at all.
Based on the thread this week about why does not WS not tell and does not leave, I asked that of STL today. His response was because they have it made. At least two people to meet their needs.. the BS and the OP One to take care of house and family, the other to make me feel real special. Shoot I’d love that too if it did not hurt so many people. And both the BS and the OP are working overtime to make the WS so happy that they will choose them. They do not want to have to make the final choice of one or the other. So they play games, hide the affair, lie, etc to keep their party going. And they never have to stop until there is a consequence to pay. Your H has never had to pay any consequence. Some people learn by being threatened, some by watching others, and some people have to burn their hands off on the stove to believe it really is hot. Your H seems to need to burn his hands off. If a person Plan A’s too long it sets up a situation where the WS has it far to good. He has no reason to participate in the recovery of your marriage. He thinks you are going to plan A him until he dies. Then if you do leave or you die first he has the bimbo in the wings. So the decision is made for him.<p>The WS often leave it up to the BS and OP to duke it out. Then they take whichever one is left standing at the end.<p>Please get some help by calling the police, the abuse hot line, his family, your family and the dog catcher… [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Cali, <p>Ok, so you say you have not seen any violent behavior since this summer. Well abuse is a cycle. He has been able to keep his cool because he feels in control.. he is not loosing control. If he has used violent behavior before.. expect it now. Geez, call the police. Tell them what is going on, what he did in the past.<p>Do you know that more women are murdered by the SO then by anyone else? It usually happens when they try to leaver the man or get him to leave.<p>You have to avoid a violent situatation for your sake and your kids's sake. The police can help defuse it and maket he call, based on past history, if they can remove him from the home. And they know that if you call, he will be more likely to be violent when they leave. So they probably will remove him.<p>I have to tell you that this is a crock. He is having an affair, threating you terribly, then he tells you to leave? I am sorry but this man has not one shred of decensy.

z...H will YELL his head off...but other than pushing me when I wouldn't move outta his way...he has NEVER laid a finger on me...<p>He is big (6'4") Black and scares the poop outta other people...but he is the most NONVIOLENT person I know...<p>The RAGE and ANGER he showed this summer was so OUT of character...really...<p>
I AM THE potentially ABUSIVE ONE...I come from the history of verbal and physical abuse...I am the one to be watched and who watches herself...I have been the one to have inappropriate temper tantrums...me...me....me...<p>I know abuse is a trigger for you...but you can be rest assured that I am very safe...VERY!!<p>Thank you for caring and watching out.
Cali

Cali:<p>I know that I am not part of the gang here, but, just wanted you to know that I just read through the whole thing and I cried for you. Your H is soo stupid with the continued contact...he wants to have his cake and eat it too.<p>Z is right along with a couple of others....you have been too nice here. Don't be afraid to do what is BEST FOR YOU! Yes, you cooked his meals, washed his clothes, bore his kids and probably did other things for him too numerous to mention. You gave all of that to him freely and with no thought to yourself.<p>HE has decided to throw all that back in your face because of whatever reason.<p>SAVE YOURSELF!<p>Here for you.
Hugs<p>[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: freddyb ]</p>

First off- I want to reply to you Freddy and explain from someone who has been here a pretty descent amount of time, it seems a little cliquey if you don't understand what is going on, but I don't think it's that I know it's not for me, and I'm sure Cali would be thrilled to hear from everyone. You see when you first come here you read everything, you can't stop reading sometimes even. But in the course of things you get to know a few people well and their stories.<p>After a while you see there are so many new stories, more every day... it gets depressing and hard to keep track of, and after a while you need to get back to real life too so time runs shorter while you are here... and you want to check in on the people you know... So you see that's what you are seeing. I try to respond to one or two new people as I can- stories I can feel like I can contribute too if I have time, but as more time passes it gets harder and harder some days to read the pain that is in my not so distant past over and over. It's really nothing personal. I just want you to know you are very welcome here or anywhere, and i don't think anyone intentionally wants to be in a clique here, we all care.<p>Now- to you Cali - You said:<p>"I'm in my own kinda fogdream anyway...finding that it wasn't at all true...coming to grips with reality...we all gotta do this our own way and in our own time...so why does it hurt so much???? why do I feel shattered...all broken to bits?"<p>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Cali}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<p>I really wanted to give you a hug when I read that. I know how hard this has been... this has taken such a toll on you. I have just NO idea how you have held out this long, but I think I hear that you are not only in danger of losing all your love for this man you are in danger of not even caring anymore, I really think it's time to protect anything that might be left of your hope. <p>Of course you are feeling so shattered we all know how hard you tried and how long you have been doing this, and I know what complete and utter hell it is like. You have basically just spent many months on the front lines, you're a battle scarred and fatigued, and disenchanted.<p>I agree with the person who said that your H is being quite audacious in not only having put you through an A but also expecting you to live with it and refusing to leave. Did you call a lawyer yet? My guess... and I'm no lawyer here... but my guess, is that in order to do it you are going to need to get the ball rolling and file (at least legal seperation) and take it before the courts, I think you would win.<p>God bless you. Keep us informed.

freddyb <p>I thought you were part of the gang.You've been here for about as long as I have. <p>SNY is right. There really is not a gang. It's just hard to keep up. Cali is one of the people who has given me a lot of support from the very start. So I always look for her posts. And let me tell you, look at these boards. People are needed all the time to just jump in and help.

Hi Cali, I think it definitely is time for some tough love tactics. You deserve better than what you're getting from your H right now. I think that you know exactly what you need to do. It's hard taking these steps but think of it as getting closer to recovery. <p>I'm thinking of you and praying that you will find the strength and courage you need. Always remember that you are an incredible person.

Cali,<p>Hard piece of reality I need to share with you. My H is a kind man. Kind to animals, old ladies across the street, even gently removes spiders from the house and sets them free in the yard. I am the one who will speak her mind, have the ability to tell someone off & can think up of all kinds of bad things. You'd think between the 2 of us, I'd be having the A. But that is not what happened. I am not a real bad person but I am more verbal than H. H's problem is the inability to communicate and being a conflict avoider. <p>So I had to face the hard cold fact. My H, the kind and nice man turned himself into a cruel A monster. A total stranger....one capable of making a fist at his wife, hit the wall and put a dent in it, push me down the hallway and into the office and bedroom, pick me up and throw me on the floor....why? because I touched his things. Guess what? He was holding himself back the whole time. His eyes were glowing with anger, he did not have control of himself. <p>Cali, do you want to wait until that 'gentle' man of yours gets to that same point of no return? You see my H's actions landed him in jail and nothing I said could stop it. I no longer wondered if my H (this strange man) was abusive, the police documented it (yes the charges were dropped) but the officer said that he needed anger management classes. <p>My H spent those days in jail, even though it will not be on his record, the memory is not erased that easily. OOOhhh Cali, I tell you my painful story so that you will do better. Hopefully you will do what will lead to healing for you and your family and not back peddle like we did. <p>What I see and hear from your posts is a bit of denial, hurt, pain and frustration. You are still trying to control his actions and frustrated when you can't. Still Cali still. <p>Honey, you need a good cry right now. Go ahead, it's ok. Our shoulders are here. <p>Your H's protection of his selfish state is to accuse you of controlling him and touching his things. Petty charges but enough to rile you up. Then the vicious cycle of abuse starts all over again. You want to contact OW and tell him to leave and he wants to accuse you of controlling him and touching his things. <p>Stop this vicious cycle Cali. Please. <p>L.

Hi Cali- it is good to get an update from you to hear how things have been going. I asked my H to 'move out to think' 10 days after d-day. He did - stayed gone about a month- refused to tell me where exactly he was staying ( turned out to be at OW's place.)He did come by to see our 3 kids alot though. He then convinced me he wanted to reconcile so I let him move back in. However he slept on the couch some nights, in our bed not touching me other nights- my friends would call me daily to get the latest 'couch report.' Of course he was in contact with Sweettart again despite his claims otherwise. I insisted he move out again after a few wks of this as it was emotional torture for me. He refused as it would affect his custody rights to the kids. ( He had already been going to a lawyer making plans to divorce me to run off with Sweettart). I then got my own good lawyer and found out my attorney could file papers and get H off my couch within a few WEEKS! ( He had been under the impression he could camp out there thru the whole divorce process.) When I told him this he was livid at first but it really helped to turn around his thinking. He got so mad he soon DID file for divorce at the urging of OW but then snapped inside and told me he was making the biggest mistake of his life. He said he figured I would never forgive him so he was doomed either way he thought. I hope you get some emotional relief soon. lifeismessy

Hi, Cali,
You've gotten a lot of opinions here, so I might as well throw mine into the ring as well....<p>If H won't leave, then you've got to distance YOURSELF. Maybe not moving out, although that would be my choice, but just distance.<p>Can you say you're going shopping, for him to watch the boys for an hour, and then be gone 4? DO not account for your time? DO NOT cook for him, just yourself and boys? DO NOT do his laundry, etc. Distance. Anything which tells him you are distancing. Plan B while living at home.<p>In fact, I might even tell him you can't live like this anymore, and since he's made it clear he doesn't want to be there, only in body, he can "fend for himself" while you and boys go on with your lives. <p>Did you give him a Plan B letter? Might have to. IF he really won't leave then, I think I'd go to the steps I outlined above, to let him know you cannot continue to respect him or treat him as a member of the family with the way he's disrespecting you. Can be done in a calm manner. You know I'm nowhere near the same situation, so I'm not much help, but wish I had answers for you.<p>I'm praying for you. You need a miracle, and you need one SOON!!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless

Awwww Cali -- so sorry.<p>I feel as though I am on the opposite side of your story.<p>I know you don't want a divorce. But your H is doing absolutely nothing to help you save your marriage. <p>Maybe he feels as frozen and incapable of decisions as I do.<p>I'll post more later.