Okay, below is a part of a Plan A letter I've been putting together for WW. She explicitly initiated some relationship talk recently, asking me questions about why I "fell out of love with her" - as was her perception anyway. I responded verbally at the time, but I think she had a hard time accepting it, so I figured that I'd put some more response into this letter that I hope / expect we can discuss.<p>I've injected some comments in [] that provide some background, but are not intended to go into the letter.<p>Comments are welcome!<p>-----------------
Let me address your main question: when did I stop being in-love with you. First, let me reiterate something I said when the topic came up: be prepared to accept my response for what it is - the truth. I have never intentionally deceived you, (WW), and never will. So if what I have to say “isn’t good enough” or “is too late”, well, then that’s your decision, and I have no control over that. All I can do is paint a picture of things through my eyes. I know it’s probably hard to accept. I think you would admit that you’ve focused on the pain. But I will not shrink away from the cold, hard facts of my life. A life filled with regret, also. Regret for having caused you so much hurt. You say that you cannot forgive yourself for the pain inflicted on me, but consider me for a moment. I’m in a similar position. I find it difficult to forgive myself, too, you know. So we do understand each other, really, better than many folks out there. We are kindred spirits, maybe finding each other for the first time in some ways.<p>As I tried to explain before, I have always been in-love with you. But maybe not in the way you currently accept as “in-love”. You were very effective at meeting my top emotional needs. Recall what they were.<p>Sexual fulfillment. You were most often a willing partner - far more than some women. You gave yourself to me, allowed me to feel close to you, allowed me to see your vulnerable side. And to deliver affection and see your pleasure, deposited a lot of love in my love bank for you.<p>Conversation. We’ve always seemed like friends, (WW), even when you apparently didn’t want me as one. We talked, we joked, we just seemed to know each other’s thoughts, sometimes. We could be at ease, be comfortable, and I could always gain some satisfaction from just talking to you. It didn’t need to be passionate or sexual or serious - just being in the same room with you and speaking like friends was enough to deposit love in my love bank for you. Makes me kind of lame? Maybe. But you have always had that effect on me!<p>Recreational Companionship. It’s seemed to me, anyway, that you’ve had fun, having fun with me. And that’s always deposited a lot of love. And I’ve always been receptive to “fun” – maybe I haven’t initiated it enough myself.<p>Honesty and Openness. This is one area that I admit I’ve been “in the clouds” about. I’ve always perceived this in our relationship. As part of that “perfect guy”, I’ve thought it was “just there”, without really checking. But perception is reality, so love was again deposited each time I thought we had an honest or open exchange.<p>Admiration. You’ve always been my biggest fan, even when I thought no-one else was. Even when I tried to “make” other people like me at work and so on, I always thought of you as the one who was my real friend. Yes, and that was something of a negative, in that I came to “just assume” it, and thereby neglect it. But you were good at it, and therefore deposited yet more love.<p>Don’t think that this is being analytical. It’s the simple facts of life: you have been good to me, and for that, you should be proud and happy. I can never hold that against you, even if it were to have been done falsely, or if you must go elsewhere for the rest of your life. I value every deposit made. In many ways, it’s why I’m still here.<p>But I will admit, this love was not the kind of “in-love” you now experience. It wasn’t a drug, and so much unlike a drug, was not something with extreme highs and lows [WW has admitted that her relationship with OM is very "up-down"; as such, I'm indirectly trying to get her to see that fact as being a warning sign of things to come.]. Does that mean it was “boring” or “uninteresting” [One of her assertions, I think, to actually justify the bad behavior of OM, and denigrate our time together]? I personally don’t think so. I was just as addicted to you as any drug, and my withdrawal was obvious for a while after d-day. But I also need to accept that mature love has to endure many, many years. And to suffer such highs and lows may result in long-term regret – the highs may very well become less high, as the drug settles into the hard issues of day-to-day life, routine is established, and familiarity grows [I'm a bit suspicious about this sentence - I think she might not "believe it" - as she put it once, "every day should be like a date!"]. But… does that mean that one can’t live “better” – closer to the highs? Certainly it’s possible. I’ll talk more about that later. I also worry – those “lows” shouldn’t be there, at least in my opinion. A better model in my own mind would be steady with high peaks, not steady with low valleys, or low valleys and high peaks. But that’s just my view of things [I'm trying to show that what I'm saying is just my opinions for whatever they're worth].<p>And does that mean I was happy about everything as it was? Well, happy, but not ecstatic. To achieve that, I think more attention, more thought would have been required. Yes, the very thing you accuse me of having too much of. The neglect I showed could have just as easily been turned into something else, if I gave some thought to what I really wanted from us. But it’s easy to believe things are okay when there’s no overt signs they aren’t, I guess. Maybe wishful thinking? Always the optimist – the glass must be half-full?<p>And that leads into another factor: the fact that I didn’t know the depths of your hurt and resentment. By not knowing, I was able to live in a bubble, protected from the harsh realities of life. And so I don’t even blame you for not communicating your resentment to me – my bubble was partially constructed based on fantasy and wishful thinking – that we were somehow “okay” – that we might have even been viewed jealously by others. Of course, the “real me” that’s been there all along, lying dormant, would have probed more, would have been more insightful, wiser to the differences between us. In some ways, I think we allowed ourselves to become so enmeshed that I “just assumed” a lot – figuring that you thought in the same way that I did. Gosh, what a mistake!<p>As to a key point you express: that if one really loves the object of their affection, they will naturally treat them in a certain way. I tend to agree. You see, I believed in my warped sense of reality that I was treating you well. I thought I was being that “perfect” guy you’ve claimed I’ve been all along. If I thought for a moment that I was mistreating you, I would have been horrified, shrinking away in embarrassment and shame. As much as your view of me has changed over time, I think we all create our own realities – and often those realities are there to protect us, validate that “we’re okay” or “doing the right thing” [Again, I'm trying to indirectly attack her fog - she at one point admitted her anger was constructed to validate her actions, so I'm meerly bringing that point up again, hopefully not too aggressively].<p>You know who I am, how I react to things, how I view the world – you know that I want to hurt no-one. So a real disconnect was between perception and reality – the reality was that I had taken you for granted, had acted like many “pigs” out there who I so honestly look upon with disdain. If I thought someone was treating you with anything less than dignity and respect, I’d have a “problem” shall we say [This is an indirect slam against OM - I know he's p***ed her off royally in the past couple of months, due to shabby treatment]. To know that I did so, boggles my own mind.<p>So in the end, (WW), I will be honest and say that I kind of resent being given a lecture about what “being in love” is. We were there, had it to varying degrees over time. But it’s interesting, because even when we were undeniably passionate – even if you have to go back ten years plus – we did a pretty good job of protecting each other’s feelings, acted with consideration, and didn’t behave manically or depressively, I thought [Again, indirectly showing that her in-love isn't going to last - it's toxic - also using the past to contrast]. I know what I felt, and I know what I feel. I also know what’s possible, and what I expect to achieve in the future, regardless.<p>And I personally don’t think that love – real love – needs to be based on selfishness [She claimed that it was at one point, I think reflecting on her and OM's relationship]. In fact, honest, mature love that will stand the test of time, I think, is notably selfless. I think you’ve demonstrated that towards me for a long time – you endured much, until finally your Giver snapped, I think. Then you could give no more. I understand that, and I realize that I’m 50% responsible for our problems. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: “I honestly want you to be happy.” Whatever that takes, my dear, I want it. It hurts to say it in some ways, because it might not involve me, but I must be sincere.<p>One exercise that I suggest you do, (WW), is this. Think of yourself twenty years from now. Where are you? What are you doing? What kind of life are you living? Try to remove the emotion of thinking about (OM) or me while doing so – not to be heartless, but to look at what the heart says in the absence of this conflict. And in the end, I don’t know the best answer. But I do know that I will support you as time goes on. I must also admit this, though too – I must also live my life, and I will do so increasingly on my own, willing to make you a part of it, mind you [Trying to show a basis for my increasing detachment]. I just need to start moving with direction – not drifting aimlessly without a plan between us.<p>I know you’re struggling, (WW). I know you still don’t know what’s up or down. I think in some ways, you don’t want “a plan” because it implies you need to decide what you want, which in turn means giving up something you want. And in doing so, there will be pain, there will be withdrawal, there will be grief. But there will also be recovery. Keep that in mind too. And honestly – if you’ve got to go through a period of suffering, maybe it’s best done sitting on a beach in Hawaii? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] --- was pretty nice too! [Hey, it's an EN I can meet that OM can't!]

I think it is a good letter to help you express what you are thinking, BUT it is NOT a good idea to send it to her.<p>All I see in the letter is that you are trying to educate her and that is definitely something you do NOT want to do.<p>Also, I see a lot of "you" stuff and not a lot of "me" stuff.<p>"be prepared to accept my response for what it is"
"I know it’s probably hard to accept. "
"But I will admit, this love was not the kind of “in-love” you now experience. "
"I think we allowed ourselves to become so enmeshed"
"One exercise that I suggest you do, (WW), is this. "
"I know you’re struggling, (WW). I know you still don’t know what’s up or down. I think in some ways, you don’t want “a plan” because it implies you need to decide what you want, which in turn means giving up something you want."<p>Don't tell her what she is thinking or feeling, even if she tells you these things. If you wish to rephrase it to her to make sure you understand what she is saying, that is okay. But put it in a question, not a statement.

Are you sure she will be receptive to receiving this type of letter?<p>I know its heartfelt and honest, but as a WS I struggled with the overall tone. <p>Especially the "one excercise I suggest you do...."

ditto Chris and Lexxxy<p>I think you tried to cover too much ground. This should be a love letter, not a textbook or training manual.<p>Try this: In your copy of SAA is a sample Plan B letter. Start with that and customize it for your specific case, just leave out the Plan B punch line.<p>Didn't I post to you my version of a Plan A letter? Guess you didn't like it, huh? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>WAT

Alrighty... What I'm taking away here is that I can possibly rephrase some stuff - good to get feedback.<p>One thing to keep in mind - she's soliciting this info freely, so I feel like I need to be open. The topic she opened was very specific. I do talk about her a lot - but the fact of the matter is, this is all "common knowledge" between us - stuff we've been through before. It would make sense to qualify it all, to be clear that anything I'm saying from her point of view is what I'm currently understanding - and that I welcome clarification if I'm wrong about anything. I agree that the "education thing" is something I was worried about. Yet what I hope I'm educating her on is my personal perspective - again something she's clearly interested in and has asked about.<p>I also agree that wording around "exercise" is bad. I think I still want her to think about those questions, though, if she's willing. If she does SINCERELY, it should hopefully become apparent what the best path is - given our specific circumstances, if you're familiar with our story - trust me, it's one of the reasons she's so afraid of leaving.<p>I agree that it's kind of good to be careful what one says. But I also think there's a point where the BS is simply "[censored]-footing around". I have no problem with LB'ing a bit - it's getting to the point where her "cake and eat it too" is resulting in paralysis - and some "reality talk", as I've observed in the past - tends to upset her for a little while, but as she herself admits, she wants to hear it because sometimes it "sinks in" with time.<p>Was talking to SH yesterday. He asked what our MC has done in terms of a plan for us, and even our own plan. Well... I guess we don't have one, because she doesn't want one, because having one implies she's made a decision. He suggested approaching her about that, doing some inquiry. One might infer that as LB'ing - educating for example. But I think it makes a lot of sense. So there's another example, I think, of where one person's view of LB'ing is not universal. There comes a time when the BS needs to stand up and be heard for their own self-esteem and their own rights as a person.<p>In terms of being a love letter... I've given her about 20 of those already!! Hey guys, let me go off here on this one a bit - kind of an experiment... If one key doesn't work, try another.<p>But I will definitely do some tuning... thanks!!

I do talk about her a lot - but the fact of the matter is, this is all "common knowledge" between us - stuff we've been through before.
I was referring to you telling her what she is thinking & saying, such as "you do this", "you are thinking this" and "you should do this." It comes off as controlling.<p>It would make sense to qualify it all, to be clear that anything I'm saying from her point of view is what I'm currently understanding - and that I welcome clarification if I'm wrong about anything.
It's okay to tell us what you believe she is saying/meaning and it's even okay (if done gently) to say it back to her as long as it is clear to her that you are seeking a better understanding of exactly what she said.<p>I agree that the "education thing" is something I was worried about. Yet what I hope I'm educating her on is my personal perspective - again something she's clearly interested in and has asked about.
I suggest when she asks you about it say something like,
"well, this (article/book/person) suggests (whatever). I really think it makes sense and I am trying to put it into practice."
This shows her you are doing something besides simply preaching to her. She may ask you about it more and then you can explain it to her more fully. However, be sure to word it so that it is not something she has to do.<p>I agree that it's kind of good to be careful what one says. But I also think there's a point where the BS is simply "[censored]-footing around". I have no problem with LB'ing a bit - it's getting to the point where her "cake and eat it too" is resulting in paralysis - and some "reality talk", as I've observed in the past - tends to upset her for a little while, but as she herself admits, she wants to hear it because sometimes it "sinks in" with time.
Actions speak much louder than words. As she sees changes in you, she will understand you have done something and this is supposed to get her "off the wall" hopefully in your direction.<p>Sometimes a real hardball will do the trick. However, Harley has proven most of the time you simply need a slow, consistent pitch to do the trick and a hardball will hurt more than help.<p>Was talking to SH yesterday. He asked what our MC has done in terms of a plan for us, and even our own plan. Well... I guess we don't have one, because she doesn't want one, because having one implies she's made a decision. He suggested approaching her about that, doing some inquiry. One might infer that as LB'ing - educating for example. But I think it makes a lot of sense.
Tell her that you need to do something with the MC, not just blab about your childhood or whatever. Discussions without actions don't accomplish much. You understand some of the things you have done wrong in the past & you want a plan to relearn these behaviors.<p>If she does not want a plan, you can work on one for yourself (through your MC or Harley). Remember, the MC works for you at $60-$100/hour, you better be getting SOMETHING! If you are not getting much accomplished, tell him (MC).

Chris - I was referring to you telling her what she is thinking & saying, such as "you do this", "you are thinking this" and "you should do this." It comes off as controlling.<p>J.R. - Absolutely. Much is in the delivery, because much of what I'm saying IS in fact parroting back things she's said, OR happens to be my take on my own perspective and experiences. I think she realizes that quite a bit, and lately (within the last week), we've actually started to TALK, it seems for the first time since this started in some ways! (I.e., she's becoming more ready to talk, although certainly not willing to commit yet.)<p>Chris - It's okay to tell us what you believe she is saying/meaning and it's even okay (if done gently) to say it back to her as long as it is clear to her that you are seeking a better understanding of exactly what she said.<p>J.R. - And in fact in a talk we had today (initiated by her), we talked about things in a tone not much unlike what I posted (tried to keep all of your suggestions in mind too). Definitely was good. Talked rationally, covered some ground it seemed, she was pretty receptive, listening, offering opinions, etc.<p>Chris - I suggest when she asks you about it say something like, "well, this (article/book/person) suggests (whatever). I really think it makes sense and I am trying to put it into practice."
This shows her you are doing something besides simply preaching to her. She may ask you about it more and then you can explain it to her more fully. However, be sure to word it so that it is not something she has to do.<p>J.R. - Oh boy - that's a toughie. Any time I even remotely bring up something from an outside source, such as a book, etc. - she bristles big time. She feels I should be able to "just know" stuff, and that I should have "just known" that my past behavior upset her (despite the fact that she never communicated about it)! In some ways, I think she appreciates some stuff that seemingly comes from me, even though I've "learnt it" elsewhere. Kind of like "saying it in my own words" makes her believe my sincerity. So that's okay by me - knowing her thought process helps.<p>Chris - Sometimes a real hardball will do the trick. However, Harley has proven most of the time you simply need a slow, consistent pitch to do the trick and a hardball will hurt more than help.<p>J.R. - I think there is some basis for "hardball" if you look at Dobson. Plenty of debates here on where the approach intersects with MB. I think Dobson / hardball can be effective if there are certain parameters, and based on the personalities involved. I actually believe that some hardball can be effective in my situation, given what I know from 4.5 months of thoughtful observation, and from what I know about WW. I also know it's not something to take lightly. I tend to prefer kind, compassionate Plan A, but when boundaries are approached, I find some "loving toughness" seems to make WW stop and think a bit - I honestly don't believe she's about to leave - she's too scared, too many doubts about OM, too much "I know you're so great, I just can help myself", etc.<p>Chris - Tell her that you need to do something with the MC, not just blab about your childhood or whatever. Discussions without actions don't accomplish much. You understand some of the things you have done wrong in the past & you want a plan to relearn these behaviors.<p>J.R. - She even recognizes this fact. Said today that she knows MC can offer us a comprehensive plan... once she decides to commit to it. There's the rub - she's not there yet. No plan to get a plan. And I think she's already more than willing to accept that I CAN be everything she wants - still not sure what she WANTS. Her big thing, I think, is in believing that the feelings should come FIRST... cart before the horse.<p>This week has been interesting, actually. I decided to do something of a 180, detach a bit, be "less available". And I think she noticed that too - similar story with Elad recently, if I recall. Anyhow, she approached me about some affection (not SF) today, lying in bed. I was there for her, even though I'm not sure her motivation. Not too concerned about that. She got to see some of what she can have and created a positive atmosphere.

It sounds like you are doing pretty good job. Remember better to stop & think about what you are going to say/do than to ask forgiveness later.<p>I should have "just known" that my past behavior upset her (despite the fact that she never communicated about it)!
Good time to eat some crow.<p>"You're right. I should have known. But for whatever reason(s) I was blind to that fact. This is one of the reasons for someone outside (a MC) to point out this stuff to me so I can learn to recognize it myself."
Steve Harley told me that when she points out a lovebuster you did (and she will [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) tell her, "Wow, I didn't realize I was doing that. Thanks for letting me know. I am working on not doing that again."<p>Then DO NOT do it again!<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</p>