In another post, Honey mentioned that she had a job that would allow her to support her kids herself if necessary. <p>I don't think that is possible in my state, unless you happen to be a doctor or a lawyer. Hypothetically, let's say I got a huge raise, so that I was earning more than the director of the organization where I work:<p>Let's say I took home $45,000 after taxes. At that income, I would not be eligible for subsidized heat, or even for the Lifetime Learning Credit for college expenses. Daycare for two school age kids is about $10,000, and in this state the custodial parent is responsible for all daycare costs. My medical and dental insurance (employer subsidized) is over $4000 a year. Their father would be expected to pay half of that. The cheapest three bedroom rental I could find, after looking for well over a year, is $1500 a month, and I doubt that I will be able to find another at that price if my landlords decide to sell it. Food for the 5 of us costs about $9000 if I am careful. Heat, electric, phone, and trash amounts to almost $4000. I don't have cable. Another $2000 for auto insurance and gas, and another $1000 if I am lucky for repair for my elderly car. Add those all up, and I would be in the red, and I haven't even taken into account any miscellaneous household expenses, clothing, or loan repayment, etc. <p>Please don't tell me to move out of state - it is almost impossible to do that here - the judge won't grant it- unless I could find a far-better paying job in an area where housing is much less, which is highly unlikely. <p>My H has been unemployed for almost two years, his unemployment compensation has ended, and if he were to get a job at minimum wage, and I earned that much money, he would have to pay very little child support, not enough to make much of a difference. <p>There is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Think about your skills, and look into other opportunities... I am sure they are there... I am ony earning $25 per hour, yes, great money, but I have made more with only my college degree. I read a book, you get what you ask for... and you have good reason to ask for more now, your kids.<p>Look and you will find... if necessary you can look into your own business in your spare time, I do that too... I do not want to advertise here... but I will mention I have a small business on the side... and make pretty good money, I know many women who make way more than what you are tlaking about in the business I am in on the side alone... I am a mary kay consultant, if you want more info about this, let me know... lisaannsmail@yahoo.com<p>I really feel for you, as I know how you feel. I thought there was no light at the end of the tunnel and have pulled myself out of it... yoU can make more... averyage income for mk parties if usually $35 an hour or more... if would require you being gone more... but sometimes... more work in the short term, eqwuals less in the logn term... It is true... Mary Kay is the story of a woman left with 3 kids by a irresponsilbe H... go to the website and read her story... www.marykay.com/lisabarfield There are other ways bsides changing jobs.. You can always make plenty in your own business, because you make as much as you are willing to work for... I give facials in my house with my kids in the other room, and make good money, my kids are learing good skilss and work ethics while they see mommy work so hard to take care of them.. by no means is mk the only way.. but it is a good option - I would love to bring you into our world and have a friend to help if you are interested, if it appeals to you, write me seperately... I just wnat you and other s to know WE can do it... this is 2002, and do not give up... I was in your shoes once!Believe you can and you can, you can do it... I know you can!<p>Hugs to you, honey

honey,<p>Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think I am cut out for Mary Kay - I've never used make-up in my life, and I wouldn't recognize mascara if I stepped on it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . One of the aspects of my former position that I really didn't like was that the only possible route to advancement involved sales, which I absolutely detest, and at which I am rotten. <p>I spent a very long time looking for a better job, and found several opportunities, but none of them paid better. I have just changed careers, and I love my new job, and I think I will be pretty good at it. It has, hopefully, good job security so that I won't have to worry too much about being laid off, but I doubt that I will ever earn enough to support 4 children. <p>I think it would be terribly unfair to my children for me to work many more hours, especially while also going to school half-time, and especially since two of my kids have learning disabilities that require extra parental involvement. <p>The real problem is that it takes a lot of money to raise 6 kids (we will be paying off college loans for a very long time). That is one of, if not the major reason, my H left for a wealthier woman - he admitted to me that he couldn't separate his feelings about our finances from his feelings about me. I doubt that he was expecting to get laid off, but it isn't really a problem for him as a NCP, since he has married someone who is apparently willing to support him.

Nellie1,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>...My H has been unemployed for almost two years, his unemployment compensation has ended, and if he were to get a job at minimum wage, and I earned that much money, he would have to pay very little child support, not enough to make much of a difference.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Get him anyway w/ child support & let judge to order him to work. It is H duty and do not short change your family.

I'm just curious, Nellie, what state you live in. <p>There IS a lot of help out there if you dig deep enough. I found subsidized housing through a private (not govt run) middle-income housing agency. They don't deal with low income at all. Housing here in WA state is so outragously expensive. They handle only working people & families that fall within certain income guidelines, based on family size. You have a one-year lease, during which time you can't make over a certain amount. Once that lease is up, you can stay on a month by month basis, even if you go over the limit. Just pay your rent on time. A lot of families have been here for 4+ years. It's close to immaculate, well cared for, fenced in. I have a 2 story, 3 bdrm, 2 bath townhouse -- plenty of room for 3 kids + hampsters. I never would have found it in the paper. Most of us here found it by word of mouth. <p>My H helps out a little. Nowhere near what it would cost him of we get a D and court orders support. But we do okay. <p>I would keep digging until I found something. <p>As an aside, a D friend who is getting NOTHING in support is in an apartment out in the burbs. It's FHA subsidized and 80% (yes, 80%) of her rent goes into a fund which will eventually be a downpayment on her own home. This is a national program. I don't qualify for state help with child care right now either, but someone else turned me on to a city subsidy which will help pay for summer day camp so that I can continue working when the kids are out of school. <p>There's a lot out there if you look for it. You really have to roll up your sleeves and treat it like a part-time job.
Snow

I just qualified for reduced lunches for my girls. It's not much but it does help.<p>I had help from my parents with my house, they bought it I rent it market value.<p>WH does send me check twice monthly (never on time)So i don't have that problem.<p>I will look at taking on a roomate, this summer, if my 20 yo S doesn't move back and if he does he will be paying rent.<p>Will do craft shows this summer and that always helps some.<p>Don't want to take on a part time job tho as, I believe that my girls need me home, and not have so much empahsis put on money, wwe do without, sometimes. I just spent $50 for material and we will re upholster the sofa this next week, instead of buying a new one.<p>I know that I never will have the ability to earn enough to support my girls and myself solely, but I never planned on having kids by myself, I had my childern with my husband and it is his responsibilty to provide for his family, some may blast me for that statement, and they are welcome to their own opinion. That is mine.<p>It's rough, and it does suck. But that is why we have this forum, to share, complain and support each other and for that I am so very thankful.<p>Dawn

redhat,<p>He does pay some child support, but not very much. A judge could order him to work, but I think it would be difficult for the judge to order him to find a job paying anywhere near what he is capable of earning.<p>snow,<p>There is some help if you are poor enough, as I am now - my kids get free lunch, I have subsidized health insurance, and fuel assistance. Housing is another story, and that is by far my biggest expense. In MA, there are long waiting lists for any kind of housing assistance, and there are very few with 4 bedrooms - yet there is a strict housing code there which would most likely prevent my family from being eligible for anything smaller. One woman, with a boy and a girl, was ruled ineligible for a two-bedroom condo because they said she would not be allowed to share a bedroom with her daughter - she is fighting that ruling. There are hundreds and hundreds of families a lot worse off than I, living in hotel rooms paid by the welfare department, because there are so few apartments available. Obviously this is miserable for the families and a terrible waste of money - there are unsubsidized apartments and houses available for much less than the $90 or so a night that the welfare department is paying for hotel rooms, but there is no provision in the law to enable welfare to pay the rent on anything but subsidized housing. But I digress...<p>daybreak,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I know that I never will have the ability to earn enough to support my girls and myself solely, but I never planned on having kids by myself, I had my childern with my husband and it is his responsibilty to provide for his family<hr></blockquote><p>I agree.<p>If I earn too much money, including child support, (usually twice the federal poverty level, which for a family of 5 is $41,340 a year), I would not be eligible for any type of assistance. Yet that income would not be nearly sufficient to support a family in a location where it costs a minimum of $18,000 a year to rent a three-bedroom. Unfortunately the assistance programs are almost invariably based on the federal poverty level, which may be reasonable or even generous if you are living in some areas of the country, but ridiculously low in others.<p>Another problem is the way child support is calculated. The more I earn, the less my H has to pay - most of any additional pay that I might earn would be eaten up in taxes, in additional daycare expenses, in the elimination of subsidies that I now receive, and in a reduction in child support.<p>[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</p>

Nellie,
I love the website www.frugal-moms.com They have tons on ideas for simplifying your life and making more of less. <p>I think it is possible to live on one income, you just have to change your mindset about what you need vs. what you want.

didallas,<p>No, "simplifying" just won't cut it. My kids NEED a roof over their heads. There are laws in this state concerning how much square footage is required per person. Yes, I DO need 900 square feet of living space for a family of 5. No, I can NOT have my 15 year old son sharing a room with his sister. No, I can NOT put three children in 10x12 bedroom. It is against the law. <p>My kids NEED to eat. I NEED a vehicle to get to work in. The house NEEDS to be heated. <p>If you examine my first post, you will note that there is nothing in there about spending money on vacations, or gifts. Where do you propose I cut back? On clothing, on which I spend about $350 dollars a year TOTAL on all 5 of us? On food, on which I spend $35 dollars a week per person? Should I drive an even older car, with more than the 140,000 miles my current car has on it?<p>I am tired of seeing suggestions for cutting back by brown-bagging your lunch or eliminating your health club membership, written by people who have never known what it is like not to have enough money to both keep warm and feed their children.

Hi Nellie ~<p>No, I don't think that it really is possible to support kids on one average income. I've been very fortunate to be married to a guy that has always been able to support us with his income alone - but he makes over 100k a year. Even on that, we definitely don't live a fancy high life.<p>We live in a VERY blue collar town with a low housing cost and drive regular cars and are what I would call somewhat comfortable. We don't have lots of room for extras, but the bills get paid.<p>My H is able to make that income because *I* handle all the other responsiblities - freeing him up to pursue higher incomes and jobs.<p>How any single person, with children, is supposed to do that, I don't know. Its hard to pursue a career advancement with constant days off to care for sick kids, cancelled babysitters, daycare hours...etc. Never has my H had to say: Sorry boss, can't do that tonight, my kids have to be picked up from daycare at 6! Instead he can always say: You need me to stay until 2am? No problem!<p>So even with his ONE income, it takes 2 of us to bring it in.<p><soapbox rant>I truely think that the laws are written by our politicians, who have their mistresses on the side, and numerous exwives, etc. These laws are written with an eye to protecting their own backsides. <p>Ok so that's a big generalization...but I think that if it were divorced BS's struggling to raise a family alone writing those laws things would be a whole lot different [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I don't really have any advice for you Nellie. I do think you ought to take your budget before a judge and see if you can go after your H's OW's income. I wonder if you could demonstrate that your H is willfully unemployed and lives on OW's income. If there was a way to call her support HIS income....am I making sense? You might be able to get her to pay up [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] It might be worth it to see an attorney on one of those free consult things and see what your possible options might be.<p>It's outrageous that your H does this to his children.

Nellie1, so sorry you are here!!!<p>I can't offer any advise. I just want you to know I hear how hard it is for you. I am glad you have a job you enjoy. You have a rough road ahead of you. It is a shame when a father/husband can just choose the mentality that they are no longer responsible. I don't know how they do it. Just hang on, one day at a time, somehow you will make it. Keep posting, keep taking care of you.

BrambleRose,<p>Thanks. I agree with you about the politicians.<p>I don't know if it is possible to pursue child support based on her income - have you ever heard of it being successful? I know that her income can be considered in determining his "resources" when it comes to determining his contribution to college, but I don't know about child support. <p>notheard,<p>Thanks for your support. I don't understand how he can justify this to himself - especially when the man he used to be was just the opposite.

Nellie, check with an attorney. If her income is a 'resource' for college tuition, then I'd be willing to bet there might be a chance you could use that argument for his CS obligations.<p>I have heard of exwives going after their exH's new SO's incomes. I don't know how successful or how often this happens.<p>But geez, you would think (haha) that a judge who sees your budget, his willful lack of work and her income....would see things your way.<p>It's worth checking out - many attorneys offer a free consultation...go for it. Your kids deserve better than what they are getting. And that woman has participated in destroying your family.<p>And what about alienation of affection? You might want to see about suing for that too if possible.

According to the separation agreement, we are supposed to go through mediation in the event of a disagreement, so I would probably have to go that route. <p>Alienation of affection is not available in this state, unfortunately.