but they really didn't have a connection either???<p>I guess I'm "lucky" (yeah, like that's even the right word to use [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) since my WH is very remorseful, putting all of his energy into us, knows he wants "us," etc. Anyhow, we are "recovering" and had the "detail" talk a couple of weeks ago. I realized that I was getting depressed because questions kept swimming around in my head, over and over and over....so I started writing them down...Everything from "was oral sex involved" [no] to "did you tell her that you loved her" [no, but she said it once to him as she was leaving work and scared the crap out of him].<p>I had a very long list and asked him everything. He answered every question (reminding me that he was VERY uncomfortable every now and again and looked like he was going to vomit). After he answered all of my questions, I said "So basically you kissed, she groped you to get you hard,you put the condom on, you had uninteresting sex that was only enjoyable on the fundamental "I'm getting screwed" level, and then you threw the condom away in a dumpster and left? He nodded and said "I don't know why I was doing it, but it definitely wasn't for the sex."<p>He maintains that he really didn't touch her (fondling, caressing, manually stimulating) and that there was "nothing" there. (they had sex in a car twice) And I said "you didn't touch her?" And he was like "how?" with this disgusted look on his face. "Like you touch me...duh!" "No [with petrified look on his face], God no."<p>So I have part of the puzzle complete in my head, but it is so difficult to understand why he would do this? He also says all they talked about was sports and work. But he guesses there must have been some emotional connection, but he sure doesn't see it now. He says he was "numb" during the month or two of the A. That's the only feeling he had. Says the only thing he can think of is that he was looking for acceptance. The OW was ringleader of the store, was offish to him, he befriended her "to win her over" (he was new there) and then wham. All of this from the start of the friendship to the PA was a few months.<p>I guess I'm scared because I know that problems in our marriage encouraged this (I quit to be a WAHM right as he got this new position, never saw eachother, LOTS of disrespectful judgments on my part, lots of NO admiration and family responsibility on his part), but it is mainly something inside him that allowed this to happen. He wants to go to IC (discussing tonight with MC) to figure out how to help himself...but it really scares me.<p>We are working on our marriage and I feel like there is so much hope, but sometimes it is so hard to realize that I married a man who was so selfish and so confused that he allowed this to happen...and he took it the next level and the sex wasn't even worth it. Why did it have to go that next level??? *sigh*<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: weRtrying ]</p>

Lots of affairs aren't about sex. Sex with a new person is almost always exciting of course, and a new relationship releases those feel good brain chemicals, but I don't think that most WS have affairs primarily for sex. Lots of the couples here always had great sex. I know our sex life was never an issue. It seems to be much more common that the OP makes the WS feel a certain way. Many WS are depressed, disillusioned with life, bored. Alnog comes someone who doesn't REALLY know them, they only know the aspects the WS chooses to show. To the OP the WS can do no wrong (initially). Heck yeah it would feel great to be around someone who agreed with everything you said and acted like you walked on water. Meanwhile the OP is on his/her best behavior too (initially). The bored/depressed/MLC person is suddenly feeling alive because he/she is desirable to someone new who acts like he/she is a God among men/women. In many cases the OP isn't "special" he/she is just there, filling that void. He/she could be almost anyone who was in the right place at the right time, behaving a certain way. I remeber when my best friend had her A her MM might as well have been a cardboard cutout. She was searching for something exciting and he happened to be there, paying lots of attention to her. She projected all kinds of qualities on him that he didn't actually have. I met him once. Her fog description and the reality of him sure didn't match lol. After her fog cleared she was repulsed. The Prince she created in her head had been a toad all along. Most WS are looking for something when they have an A (even though they often don't realize or express that before hand) adn the OP is in the right place at the right time to fulfill that need. I think excitement, feeling young again, release of boredom, admiration etc. are all probably more common reasons than sex.

WOW,
Ya, what fairydust said!
It was probably a need for admiration not sexual fulfilment (dangit where is my spellchecker).
Yes you are a lucky one even though it doesnt feel that way, look around here and you will see.
you are not alone.

Fairydust & weRtrying:
I am the WS in our mess at home and I believe that Fairydust may have hit a large part of it on the head. First, as we(WS's) begin this descent to the A I'm not sure we know what we are doing, looking for or missing in our lives. There is just something about that OP that pulls us in and from there we begin to attach "importance" to that in our minds. We become blinded by the fact that this is "real life" instead of the "fantasy" world we are living in. The sex in my A came very late in the process and was a terrible mistake. My wife was trying to deal with the EA and when the sex became known she isn't sure she can take it. WS's don't realize until it's too late that what they were looking for was right in front of them all the time in the majority of cases. It isn't about the sex.
Question(stupid): Why the first sex question was refering to oral sex? My wife asked me the same thing. Does that bear more significance than intercourse?
weRtrying: Keep going! I have to ask myself how your H could have sex without the "touching"? This coming from a person who has learned very well how to twist the truth to fit his needs.
Good Luck!
brw

brw, my husband also twists things to meet his needs (though that is changing as he realizing how much trouble that causes). I asked all of the questions...did you touch her breasts [no], did you touch her c*nt [no], did she touch your penis [yes], did she put the condom on [no, i did], did you stroke her hair [no], did you hold her a** [no]...ok you get the picture. I asked VERY specific questions, and knowing some of the answers I got, I don't think he was lying. We even talked about the difference states of being erect! We went from point A to poin Z, through evey detail. Apparently he did the minimal amount of touching required for sex, if that makes sense?<p>Oh, to me oral sex and foreplay are much more intimate than just sex. TO me I wanted there to still be something "special" that was just "ours." Something for me to hold on to. Since they had sex in a car, they didn't have much opportunity for tricks, but it doesn't sound like there was much desire for that anyways.<p>I plan on seducing my WH in the car soon, then the last image will be gone. It's amazing what writing down those questions (and him answering them) did to clear up my mind. Now if thoughts pop into my head, I can just answer them and push them away instead of my mind coming up with 3000 scenarios.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by weRtrying:
<strong> I asked all of the questions...did you touch her breasts [no], did you touch her c*nt [no], did she touch your penis [yes], did she put the condom on [no, i did], did you stroke her hair [no], did you hold her a**
</strong><hr></blockquote><p> Wow, I never would have asked those questions. I know how people have sex and I wouldn't have expected honest answers anyway. Besides, if someone would ask me detailed questions about someone I had sex with I most likely wouldn't really remember most of the specifics unless it was something really odd. For me asking detailed sex questions would have made my recovery much harder.

For me those were the [wierd, I know] questions running through my head at all hours of the night and day. Once I had answers, I could lay them to rest. I really didn't care what the answers were, or I guess I should say, it wouldn't have mattered if the answers were hurtful or not in the long run. I just need him to give me answers and then my imagination would take that answer, close the door on that image, and bye bye. I know how other people have sex, but I also know how me and WH make love and have sex, and believe me, from that comes a very active imagination and way too many images that NEVER EVER happened with WH and OW. Knowing the details for me has put my imagination to rest. I suppose he could be lying about some things, though from his answers, I doubt it. I guess it doesn't matter though...the answers put my mind at ease. Maybe it's something to do with us being eachother's first in highschool and never having any other sex partner until now. I don't know.<p>BTW, I know it sounded crude in my post, but I didn't go at my WH with list in hand and beat him down to the ground....we were actually wound up in eachothers arms laying on the couch in a low-light room about 10 o'clock at night. There was no anger or anything, just some hurt, quite a few tears, a lot of discussion. My WH said it was very uncomfortable but it made him realize exactly what he did (at the time he was numb, or in a fog, whatever) and he dealt with his action that night more so than when he told me on dday. He was always remorseful and sorry for what he had done, but that night I think he realized exactly what he HAD done, not just what he almost lost as a consequence.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by weRtrying:
<strong> Maybe it's something to do with us being eachother's first in highschool and never having any other sex partner until now. I don't know.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p> Ouch. Yes I could see how that could make a difference. My H and I had both been "around the block" so to speak lol, so it wasn't like there had been no one else but each other in our pasts. I think if that were the case the actual "What did you do?" might have been more of an issue.

weRtrying.. My WW is my first and only, so I can understand your questions. I had much the same urge to ask my wife to know as much as possible to see what I could salvage of my "special" memories. She unfortunately/fortunately wouldnt go into those details. She did tell me she did not use protection!!! gee im glad I saved myself for her, eh? As for details I did have the horror of reading an e-mail from the OM to her describing one encounter in detail as "special". hurt like hell. still does. Am I glad I know more details? I don't know, perhaps not.<p>I guess noone is lucky that has an A touch their lives. But you are so blessed it wasnt an EA too and your husband is so repentant and willing to work with you. <p>I hope things work out for the best!
sorry to usurp your post with my vent.

weRtrying,
Thank you for the response to my question and to the others who jumped in also. I was a little aprehensive about asking such a thing but your post struck me as something different between a man and woman's thought process. If that makes any sense. It always helps to have a different perspective to go by so you can try to understand better.
My wife also expressed the hope that we had something that was "ours". How did you or how long did you take to desire that intimacy again being the BS?
brw [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]

weR, here's a link to an excellent article by another leading marriage counsleor, Dr. Glass. I don't think anything she says conflicts with the MB philosophy, but she explains things about adultery in a way that I believe is much more understandable than Dr. Harley's.<p>http://www.smartmarriages.com/glass.html<p>Dr. Glass says she doesn't ask the WS what they liked about OP, but instead, what they liked about themselves while in the affair. You husband may recoil and claim he despised himself, but there had to be something appealing to him or he wouldn't have done it. It could be as basic as the thrill of conquest, although the experience itself was mundane.<p>And on the upside, at least he used a condom. Not all of us are that lucky.

Charynne,
Bravo on your post and thanks for the article!
I don't know if you or anyone else has read
"Surrendering to Marriage" by Iris Krasnow. This is also an excellent book. I first learded about the Smartmarriages site but couldn't get on there for some reason. We need all the perspective we can get.
Brw
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

brw~
We began sexual relations again a few days after dday, and have never really stopped. As far as the oral route goes, I finally got the nerve to do it a week ago because I was tired of feeling sick about it. And like I thought, once I did it, no big deal and I enjoy it once again. For some reason though I still do not want my WH to do that to me. He brings it up weekly and keep telling him I'm not ready. I think it's realated to the whole trust and intimacy thing for me...when he does that, *I'm* not the one in *control* you see, and I'm not sure I want to surrender myself to him yet. I'm sure I told you more than you want to know, sorry!<p>I will say I felt like there was something 'wrong' with me since I wanted to resume sexual activity so soon. But we've always had physical intimacy, it's the emotional intimacy that we lost somewhere along the way....so I need to have that physical contact to keep me going. Sure enough, as we talk more and more, the emotional intimacy is coming back, which makes the physical intimacy a heck of a lot better! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I just wish a could bottle up the hurt and betrayal and throw it away so that I could stop relapsing. We are heading in the right direction, our marriage is becoming better now that we both took responsibility of it's downfall, but my 'hurt' sometimes brings us down. And I LB with passive agressive statments. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Off to read that article now!

dear wrt- i know exactly what you mean. in my situation the sex in our marriage became almost non-existant. i found out about affair on dec. 9th- somehow on the 12th i allowed my husband to hold me and it turned into the most passionate kiss ive ever experienced. i felt things i had bottled up for years-of course this led to lovemaking in our livingroom with my sons asleep upstairs. he was so amazed i think he didn't know what to do! unfortunately i scared the hell out of him at the most inopportune moment-just as everything was exploding-im trying to think of words for this bear with me-i started to have the most amazing org*** of my life-however with all the emotions involved i also started to scream and sob. scared the you know what out of him. im sure he will laugh at this someday-i do.

wRt:
No problem. I was curious and I'm sure it will be different for other people. My W said tonight that she didn't(if she even could)know how long it would be before she would comfortable be intimate again. I don't blame her. I have taken a very important part of our marriage and made a grave mistake in being intimate in any way with another woman. You keep trying and we will ,too.
brw [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]