I understand that most of us come here trying to save our marriages. What we seem to be taught by the Harley principals is to basically identify where we went wrong and to impliment a plan that hopefully will correct the situation. In some cases our spouses were driven to extremes to seek out another person, in other cases they just wandered. In both of these scenarios the term "fog" is applied as to say they are not totally aware of their actions and are somehow in an hipnotic state. I really think that in many situations the WS is totally aware of what they are doing. They wander either for real flaws in their marriages or are just not faithful people. I agree that if there is a legitimate flaw in ones marriage which does cause one to wander, all efforts should be made to recuperate the marriage. However, if a spouse is as they say naturally unfaithful or simply does not respect their partner, is the effort really worth it?<p>I´ve read posts here from people suffering with someone who "runs around" or takes secret holidays with a lover and so on. What are they really trying to save? Many people in these situations would simply tell their WS to enjoy their life but goodbye. So many others suffer and desperately look for solutions. Why? Is it for love, family, economy? If the same scenarios of infidelity that are played out in marriage occur when a person is single without familiy etc, most people simply say its over and move on. So if you would remove the legal, religous and family implications, would most of us try so hard?

Why try, for me? I think of quitting on here sometimes every day, but I'm a romantic hopeful sap I guess. why?<p>Love.<p>No matter how much she hurt or continues to hurt me. She is my first love. I'll always remember us staring into each others eyes holding hands. The look on her face when I first gave her flowers. The feeling I had when she hid a lovenote for me in my suitcase when traveling on business. The kind things she has always done for me and other. No matter how gloomy things are, when she really truely smiles it always amazes me how beautiful she is inside and out. Even with the memory of the A lingering in my head.<p>Ask yourself this. If you don't love your WS, why does it still hurt so much? <p>I'm still young, it would be easier to move on, but I would never forgive myself for not trying with everything I have. I dont think there is one true love for everyone, I could find someone else to love for other reasons, but I know my wife is unique and special in her own ways and I love her.<p>-HI<p>[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: HangingIn ]</p>

Yes, I would just say, thank you, have a nice life and move on.<p>Unfortunately, when you have racked up a tremendous amount of debt and are linked on a physical (we work in the same place and have only one car) and financial level, it is hard to do.<p>I am so emotionally drained from all of my experiences that I am at the point that there have been many times I have wanted to just say Scr*w It! and go......

If I didn't have children, it might have been different. With children involved, you fight for your marriage on another level. Your spouse is not just your spouse, but a father or mother. You are not only going to lose your marriage, but your family. You will not only be dealing with your own grief but with your children's.
I think that in childless marriages, I wouldn't blame anyone for walking away. Especially younger couples who can start over easily. They have less invested and therefore less to lose.
When my husband was planning to move out, I knew my children would be devastated. I knew that my two older children would completely lose respect for their father. Fortunately he woke up before taking the step that would have damaged his relationship with them irreparably. During that time I was fighting hard to remind my H that this marriage and family is priceless. Too bad he forgot that simple fact for a while.

Love makes you stay. Kids make you work harder at it. I made a promise for better or for worse. I intend to keep my promise. <p>If he wants to walk away he has to do it. <p>So until I feel that there is no more hope, I keep trying.

I suppose I should comment, since my WW has demonstrated unfaithfulness - not once, but twice.<p>I have personally pondered this point a lot. Is it a marriage worth saving? Why bother? What if she does it again?<p>Well, I don't think she'll do it again. After such a life altering experience for her - I've seen her pain and anguish - I can't see it repeating... if we take the necessary precautions. It's like aversion treatment for her, in a way, I think. She will never want to relive this, and she herself has admitted that she's far wiser now.<p>Is it worth saving? I'd say yes. Because we've been best friends for 13 years, we know each other. We respond to each other, regardless of what she believes in her fog - which is clearly there BTW, even by her own admission. Before the fog rolled in, yes we didn't do as well as we could have, but we had a friendship (and a really good sex life too - by both our admissions) that would be the envy of so many. For me, it's the friend I want to save from a big mistake that even she herself admits would likely result in disaster. After that, I want to take my best friend and make her my girlfriend again - I too want to return to my youthful view of her - but thankfully, much wiser now.<p>I think we can be led into unrealistic expectations. That's a danger of affairs. The fairy dust coats everything and sets the bar so very high for the A participants. That's one of the reasons they fail so much - the expectations just can't be met when the light of reality shines on them. This has slowly started to happen for my WW, and she's becoming quite disillusioned by it - the drug is wearing off, and the bear is kind of cranky! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As for whether my wife really respects me or not. This is something I have wondered too. If you ascribe to Dobson, you'd believe that a lack of respect is a key ingredient in affairs. I think respect can be gained and lost, maybe like love in the love bank. And I think we're complex creatures, and some psychological things manifest themselves in indirect ways. For example, my WW's lack of self-esteem can actually indirectly contribute to her loss of respect - done some reading. So I don't think this is a black and white subject. We all have our reasons. Love, faith, hope for the future, memories of the past - all come into play for me.

What is it that keeps me going. I look at my wife and I too remember the good moments. Our daily lives, our daughters, all the positive things. But I also look at my wife in deep and pensive thought and think, how can she be doing this to me, if she really loved and respected me how could she. <p>She knows I know of her "friend" and I have confronted her many times. She claims he is just a friend. But I know after being able to read their e-mails that there is alot more. I cannot tell her this as is would explode. She would only take it as an invasion of her privacy. I have tryed plan A. We could have just finished having a great day or having made love but she runs back to contact him. I look at my daughters, our family enviroment, our home and only feel a sense of helplessness. I then wonder why should I be suffering. Do I really love this person? Does she deserve my love?

"Love" is the best reason I can think of. When I still felt "in love" with my WH I was willing to work on it, anger, hurt, frustration be damned. Those feelings have died and I am not as willing. <p>What gives me pause and makes me occasionally reconsider is the financial well being of the family and my children's quality of life issues. That it's easier to do EVERYTHING with two parents around. If I stay in this marriage, I will be the first to admit it will be out of convenience, not love. I have lost a lot of respect for my H and can't see myself as his "faithful wife" any longer. <p>RR, have you asked on this board about confronting your W? I think that I would... sit her down and say, " I know that I shouldn't have but I did and here's what I learned...". The same scenario you use when you peek in your kids diary and find out she's contemplating having sex for the first time (has NOT happened to me, thank God). It takes two to make it work, you know that. <p>Snow

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Snowwhite:
<strong>"Love" is the best reason I can think of. When I still felt "in love" with my WH I was willing to work on it, anger, hurt, frustration be damned. If I stay in this marriage, I will be the first to admit it will be out of convenience, not love. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, Snowwhite has hit on a good point....that is that a lot of us are probably still here because of "convenience." I don't think this is going to be a popular opinion, but it is mine, and sometimes I wonder if this IS my motivation:<p>Partly convenience, because everything IS easier with two partners....bills, taking care of household chores....gotten used to having someone (THEM) around...doesn't sound much like love to me....hmmmm.....maybe I'm talking myself out of something here.<p>Another motivator FOR ME might even be I don't like to lose a contest! Sometimes this feels like a "contest" for the heart, mind and BODY of the WS. I don't like things to be taken away from me - if they belong to ME.<p>I have searched long and hard for the correct answers for me....since we have no children together, have been M for almost 21 years, I think sometimes that just "like a comfortable pair of shoes" I am just doing this cause it's the path of LEAST resistance. I sure don't want to get back into the "dating game." Is there love for him? I sure hope so!! I know it doesn't 'feel" the same as it did 22-23 years ago....but is that so wrong?<p>Maybe that old "comfortable pair of shoes" you can't throw away IS a feeling of "LOVE" but I haven't been able to figure that out yet. <p>Can part of motivation be b/c I made a vow before God? Is this enough, when I clearly did NOT stick to it....at least not in WH's mind so that he didn't have to go get EN's filled elsewhere? Yes, guilty as charged on this one. Does this somewhat absolve him? Does it make ME more guilty for A than he? Hmmmm. I CLEARLY (in his mind, and in mine) "broke more vows" than he did, although the ONE he broke ultimately is more devastating than the little ones I broke quietly, insidiously, regularly. I BROKE IT. I want to FIX IT. I want to fix it before GOD, cause HE WILL JUDGE ME.<p>Sorry to be so "clinical" and not very "emotional" - but since you wanted to know WHY, I'm trying to be honest!

I keep asking myself that same question and all along the line i have known it is because i love H so much.
But this last week or so i have strong doubts about how i feel.
Maybe its because its been so long since H has shown love or feelings (except SF and that can be got anywhere if you wanted just S*x)
Im tired of telling someone i love you and showing feelings and trying so hard to be myself and not LB when H is so in the wrong, Im tired of getting nothing back when i know OW is getting all the love and feelings that i used to get!!!
Why would anyone put up with all the crap i have put up with for 19 months and not tell him to get lost.
Because i love him thats why, sometimes i have doubts like do i want to really be with someone who can treat me so bad.
And i start to think lets cut my losses but an hour or so later i know i cant give up i love this man with all my heart and soul and thats all there is to it. But i have gone to plan B so who knows the outcome.<p>Liz<p> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Funny that this post came up today. I have been kind of unsure of myself and what I want in my life. My H still had no desire to come home...although I am sure he misses our family. He is in his own world...new woman...new house and her child. My counselor saw my H last week.....then he saw me. He said that maybe he wouldn't ever come home....and then he started to hammer the point home about me showing him that I care. Invite him for Popcorn and a movie with the kids.....well I have thought about this a lot...I have two thoughts on this....
1. I resent that fact that he would be with his family and then go home to OW.
2. Would being with his family make him miss it enough to eventually bring him home? OUr family life was great....we actually have FUN together....that is hard to do in the time...especially with teenagers.<p>I also think...why do I want him back??? I go back and forth on this....I have been with this man for 22 yrs of my life. This stupid OW has been with him for a littl more than 6 months. I believe that this relationship started and moved too fast and now H is backed into a corner. Yes, he could get out if he wanted to...apparently...he doesn't want to. I am a very competitive person.....me losing is not an option.....not wanting to look for someone else....I don't even want to think about it....what's out there scares me...I feel too old to be "looking" for love! It would probably just be easier to wait htis out...they work together....go home together and then you add the fact that we are not divorced yet....that causes a little trouble for them....I do so want to be a thorn in her side....anyway...I am sorry I rambled and went off a little....okay..a lot! Any opinions?

I worked hard and keep working to save my marriage because my life is so much more with my husband. He's my best friend, my companion, my helpmate, my lover. <p>I don't need his money---I make enough to support me and d. We don't have children together but I appreciate his love for my daughter. I don't think God wants us to be miserable so I don't stay out of religious convictions. <p>I stay because when he's not with me, part of my heart is gone.

I think there's much more to a good marriage and happiness than love.<p>If love was all that was important than the WS would be right-- if love fades, just leave and find "better" love and not come back. But, they often come back. Even when they claim to "not be in love with the BS." <p>I think we create intimate connections with our spouses (or equiv.) that find their way into every aspect of our lives. I don't think it's possible (though some claim it is) to just walk away and leave these connections behind. They will always be there. When I hold my W's hand, or just talk to her about something, so many feelings and memories play around in the background.<p>I can't imagine plugging someone else into "her" spot. Even if I learned to love someone else, there are pieces of me that belong to my W that I couldn't give away even if I tried.<p>If you consider the case of a single person, you are probably talking about a short term relationship-- few connections have been made. That's why is possible to separate "easily."<p>Jeffers

I agree with Jeffers, there's just more to it than "Love" or "In-Love". An emotional connection perhaps .... my connection with my x-H could never be easily replaced, someone just can't saunter into my life right now and I'd have THOSE connection feelings for them, even if I fell in-love with them. <p>But hey, obviously I was easily replaceable, expendable, recyclable .... I mean, if not OW #1, then certainly OW #2.<p>What makes someone (WS's) look at and treat people like disposable paper plates? [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jo<p>[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Rich:<p>I sometimes wonder myself why I'm working so hard to save my marriage. I do have 2 kids that adore their father, I love my H very much, and can't imagine a life without H and kids together. However, my H still works every business day with OW and just the thought that they might someday turn what once was an EA to a PA just kills me and sometimes pushes me to not wanting to be with him. <p>[LIST]
Married 13 years
H had EA with co-worker
D-Day 9/00
2 D's 10 & 8
In recovery

This is a tricky question for me. At first, I would say it was definately for the kids. I had been losing so much feeling for my H before D-Day, he would have been out that night. H went on travel a few months before and jokingly said, "I wish I didn't have to go because you might decide you don't need me while I'm gone." In all honesty, I thought about that statement a lot while he was gone. When we were first married I HATED when he left and missed him like CRAZY. That last time he went, I actually felt relief, planned things to do with the kids, and didn't really even want to talk on the phone. I didn't really miss him because even when he was home he wasn't home.<p>Now, almost 7 months later, I finally feel like I'm getting my partner back. I actually even depend on him for some stuff now. I have help and companionship. I think I would miss him now if he left. Don't give up too soon. The feelings you have today, may be quite different than next month or even next week.<p>People change every day!

Well, thank you all for the feedback. Keep it coming in. This can be an interesting exercise in looking into ourselves to see why we do what we do. It seems that the responses are varied from an almost blind "I´m in love" to family and familiarity. Some people just seem tired and don´t want to make the effort to start over. It is also understandable if your married many years. Also, the reasoning of having such inter-twined lives that are hard to undo can be valid.<p>So many of these reasons seem to only be justifications to accept an existing situation. But why is it that so many of us must accept our circumstances? Can we really be happy?

I think it's worth the fight because marriage has meaning.. it represents so many qualities that must not be mocked and must not taken lightly...
That fighting for a marriage means that we don't just change the definiton of words to fit our wants and needs...that we don't teach our children that personal happiness is the most important thing no matter the cost...no matter who it hurts...and happiness sought after in selfishness is a shallow and weak reflection of true happiness.<p>I think we are lying to ourselves when we decide that our children want us to be happy no matter what...even if it means discarding a spouse to be with someone else...<p>Marriage is hard hard work and not to be taken lightly..but somewhere in that mundane half-squeezed tube of tooth paste in the bathroom is a whole history of two people who have undertaken a task that this society should celebrate, honor and support..instead it mocks and lightly disregards it....<p>There has always been great nobility in fighting for what is right...and marriage is becoming that last frontier....but the qualities and values it teaches us to are really important things....that do mean something...<p>Sometimes we fight because giving up is just giving into the lowering of yet another standard.
ARK

I do want to add that I did take my vows seriously---I am committed until death. Even in the height of my a, it never occurred to me that I would leave my husband. (Please don't blast me, just being honest.)<p>Jeffers, as Sean Connery said in 'finding forrester'=="you da man now, dawg!" You have succintly put some of my own feelings into words. <p>Marriage is loving each other (hate the phrase 'in love' at this point), commitment, respect, consideration...working together...so much. So sad that we sometimes lose sight of why we married in the first place.

Rich-<p>I just get such a sad feeling reading your posts. I KNOW how you are feeling. I could have written your posts myself not too long ago. The one thing I wanted to point out is there are NO guarantees. I know I was looking for someone to tell me my H was a changed man and this would never happen again. No one can do that. I SEE the changes in my H. When you start to see them, it is a dramatic eye opener. At first, the nicer he was, the more ANGRY I became. I was angry because of the disrespect and disreguard I was given for so long. When he changed, I was happy, but more angry than ever. His changes made his former treatment of me really stand out. Does that make sense?<p>If I could guarantee for you that things were going to work out, would you stick in there? Isn't the possibility of having a wonderful marriage reason enough? When change happens, you will be amazed at times how much the relationship grows with the people who are growing. I know it is hard to give it time. Every set back feels like the last straw..... been there [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I really believe that if a person can learn from what happened, they will be a better person. Isn't the thought of having a S that is better than when you first got married temting? It can happen. It is better because you will both be aware of it, and making a conscious effort.<p>I really believe I will be VERY happy. Even now I have some really happy days. Will it be better? I'm betting the rest of my life on it [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hang in there~
Try to Keep Smiling [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]