emotionally naked<p>Sel, how many times have I used that phrase?<p>This SNL (Saturday night live?) person sounds pretty sharp... like an attorney.... he'll get you to talk!<p>Sel, I know from our emails that you have grown up in an environment that swims in a sea of lies and relationships are shrouded in pretending things did not happen.<p>Love,<p>Pepper<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

Sel,
I have to head off to work now, but I wanted to write something before I go. Your story has really moved me. My W PlainJane and I have lived through the sort of issue you're dealing with. You really brought up some feelings in both of us.<p>Of course, after what I went through, I believe in full disclosure. One thing I don't think has been mentioned is the possibility he might one day find out from someone else. Should that ever happen, it would be a betrayal in some ways, worse that the others because you chose to decieve him even after he told you he was willing to forgive. I suspect it's much more likely he would leave you if he find out from OM or someone else.<p>Welcome Sel, to MB's I hope your H will join you here. <p>David

edit<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Davidb ]</p>

Sel,
I think this SNL person makes a lot of sense. THINK about what he/she has said.<p>Love ya!

nah, not an attorney, just a guy who fixes things (furnaces and air conditioners mostly), but was also a paramedic (fixing people) in my earlier years...mostly I am a troubleshooter, problem solver, unfortuenatley for some reason my own life is a disaster.....pretty much cause I did not fully understand all this stuff long ago, although my issue was not this one (radical honesty) in particular....I have always laid it on the line, but there are a few other marital principles too.

david... One thing I don't think has been mentioned is the possibility he might one day find out from someone else. Should that ever happen, it would be a betrayal in some ways, worse that the others because you chose to decieve him even after he told you he was willing to forgive. I suspect it's much more likely he would leave you if he find out from OM or someone else.<p>snl...This is a pragmatic reason to motivate someone to tell, but AGAIN is irrelevant, there cannot be any internal diaglog why you tell, you do it cause you have no human right not to tell, you don't even think about it in those terms (whats in it for you essentially)...you do it cause love cannot exist if coercion or manipulation of any kind is present in a relationship...telling cause you calculate the risk now is less than the risk later is totally about YOU, and what YOU want...ie manipulation. You bare your soul sel, and let what will be, be, you (no one) can love maritally unless they do that... they can have a relationship, they can cohabitate, they can say I love you, they can meet en's, they can have children, they can create the whole picture...but you cannot love if you are afraid of losing them, or if you are afraid of disappointing/hurting them....in-love only exists when 2 people are totally vulnerable to each other, freely vulnerable, without expectations, manipulations, coercions of any kind...is hard to find, hard to do, but one should strive for it IMO.<p>was trying to think of a stark example of this stuff...it is sort of like murder, even if we could get away with it, never get caught, and benefit greatly we don't kill someone...we don't think about should we or not, we don't analyze it, we just DON'T do it, cause it is wrong. Some would say you don't do it cause you might get caught later, but I think we (at least all of us who are sane) realize that is not it, you simply don't do it.....purposefully witholding information, one can be reasonably expected to know would be important to relationship decisions another would make is tantamount to murdering them, you have taken away their right to do with their life as they will, that is why it is IMO (and the harleys) a principle, you cannot withold information and be in-love....any more than you can murder them and prop em up in a chair somewhere (anyone remember psyho?) and call em your spouse....ok, a little graphic, but these kinds of lies are the equivalent of psychological murder.<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Hi Sel, and welcome!<p>I am of the radical honesty crowd. I believe that you will be giving your H a **gift** if you sit him down lovingly and tell him the truth.<p>Here's why I believe it -- not only will this eat you alive (which it is ALREADY doing), there is always the chance that he will find out from another source, or even from you (coming out of anethesia, if this is on your mind, you could mumble the truth, for example).<p>This is your chance to show your H that you TRUST him with the most intimate part of yourself. <p>I was involved in an affair late in my first marriage (18 years in) and told my then-H. He punished me horribly. You might wonder why I still say you should tell -- I wouldn't want to be married with a horrible secret between us... I'd rather be divorced with the truth OUT.<p>Best wishes to you...

was trying to think of a stark example of this stuff...it is sort of like murder, even if we could get away with it, never get caught, and benefit greatly we don't kill someone...we don't think about should we or not, we don't analyze it, we just DON'T do it, cause it is wrong. Some would say you don't do it cause you might get caught later, but I think we (at least all of us who are sane) realize that is not it, you simply don't do it.....purposefully witholding information, one can be reasonably expected to know would be important to relationship decisions another would make is tantamount to murdering them, you have taken away their right to do with their life as they will, that is why it is IMO (and the harleys) a principle, you cannot withold information and be in-love....any more than you can murder them and prop em up in a chair somewhere (anyone remember psyho?) and call em your spouse....ok, a little graphic, but these kinds of lies are the equivalent of psychological murder.<p>One of the things that distresses me alot, is the numbers of people who conceal who they are while dating, and marry under false pretenses...the usual advice is to forgive them, and work on the marriage...that is sooooooooo wrong, you should divorce em immediately (cause you ain't married anyways, legally maybe, but certainly not spiritually)...and then date em if you want too, and eventually (let at least a year go by), if you still want em, then you can be in-love and marry..... there is just something so grotesque about tricking people in to marriage, and then getting to reap the rewards of marriage because they are stuck with you....I don't see how that can ever be a marriage.<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

I reread what I'd written and wanted to clarify something -- just because I told and ended up divorced DOES NOT MEAN you will! I know you know that, but I wanted to reitterate. It wasn't necessarily my "telling" that caused the divorce... my then-H had cheating ways, and my affair gave him carte blanche to go get more women... THAT'S what ultimately led to the divorce. <p>I feel for you, have very much "been there"... I wanted to die when I realized the pain I caused my then-H. No matter what he'd done to me, I had done THIS to him, and I LITERALLY wanted to die from the shame.<p>Please take care... and let us know what you decide.

Thinking of you this morning Sel. Hang in there sweet lady!

Hi, PlainJane~<p>Thank you, PJ, for sharing with me. You have touched me. The very thing that inspired you to post to me is what inspired me to post to the board. <p>I haven't been here very long at all, but I am one for rolling up me sleeves, shoveling the muck, then scrubbing the floor it was on, and THEN (and only then) setting out some potpourri with a lovely scent.....(hang with me here for a sec).......<p>I started reading a thread by a woman that is going through her own personal self-inflicted hell. Can you guess which one this is? The one who relates so closely to me and the person I was before and during discovery. This woman is *compulsivelairwww*. The name hooked me in and her pain and struggles have kept me reading. I, too, was a compulsive liar. Even as a child I would risk a beating to lie. In time, I learned that it ws the actual beating that I was trying to avoid.<p>(please hang with me because this is bringing up many MANY terrible memories, pain [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] , and complete and utter rage [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] . The following is me talking to you but it is also journaling and rewinding and rolling up my sleeves and wading through this horrible mess)<p>As the ladies who came to this board with me can attest to, I didn't know the first thing about honor, integrity, decency, loyalty, love (for self or others), taking the difficult high road when the easy low road is available, etc....I actually had to look up the word integrity in the dictionary just to see what all the hoop-lah was about.<p>When I joined the Redbook My Affair board I was several years past d/day. I felt like all my dragons had been slain (mistake #1). I was, afterall, looking for some support for my mother who just discovered my father's affair. What I found was that I needed more work than just about anyone [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>I realized that I was not provided with the necessary tools to make it through a productive life nor did I know the first thing about being *naked* and about self-soothing. And you know what, that makes me?.... [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] . That makes me mad because I was a perfectly open and moldable child and there was a time I was receptive with open arms. That was taken away from me by those with power over me; those who had control.<p>To be told that I am no better than those who did these despicable things....is, to say the least,.....very upsetting if not completely earthshattering to me. It's not being told that is so upsetting....because I can take my lumps with the best of 'em......it's the realization [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>I have worked, struggled, cried and fought my way to be a better ME and I realize that THAT struggle was absolutley glorious in itself. I have also realized that the things I was fightings for....honor, integrity, loyalty, trust, love.......are not really there UNTIL you have to work and struggle and fight to achieve them. I have had a harder road than some...and you know what? That road and the total CRAP that I went through makes these things all the more valuable to me......because I have WORKED WORKED WORKED to attain them.<p>I will be honest when I say that I don't know very much about the MB concepts (although I feel I have a pretty good idea)....because, as I said, I like to roll my sleeves up and get busy. So, I came to this board and started reading to get a feel of the environment and see if there was anything I could learn. I'd say, I've learned that I'm back at square one [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] . Only, this time I am better equipped.<p>Yes, being at square one is daunting. I feel like I just hopped in a time machine and am being transported back....waaaaaay back.<p>The really sad thing is I really haven't thought about this incident all that much over the last six years. I didn't wake up daily with a deluge of guilt washing over me. Because, in my mind, I had been forgiven.....do you see the twist??? My husband forgave me for being a Sex&Love Addict and he forgave me for my affair, therefore, I felt that he had FORGIVEN me everything I had done during that time.<p>It is only now that this has become and issue with me. It is only now.......because I DO love my husband, that is IS an issue.<p>I've realized that my struggles haven't been for naught and they haven't been in vain. I've learned and I've grown and I have changed oh-so-much......and through that learning and growing and changing I have realized that dealing this issue (taking the difficult high road) really is fundamental for me to continue on this path with the inertia I <myself> have set in motion.<p>I WILL do the right thing. There is no question in my mind. I haven't come this far to only realize that the foundation I have been working on has a huge section that is collapsing right out from underneath me.<p>If I lose my marriage over this...well....I honestly can't be as flippant as to say "so what"..... but I have to have faith that it will be for the best.<p>selket

IrishPrincess,<p>Love, thank you for sharing with me. It has helped me more than you know.<p>How's the wee one in your tummy?<p>love,<p>sel

Sad-n-lonely~<p>At this point, my brain and my emotions are promptly fried. I read your posts and I will respond, I just need to take a breather. I just wanted you to know that I appreciate the time and consideration you took in posting to me. Believe me, I need to read it a few more times. <p>Pepperday~ guess who I thought of when read *naked*????? Me thinks you DO know a thing or two [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] !!!!! I tell you what, why don't you pack a bag and come visit me and let me crawl in your lap so you can hug me? Just a hug. Just so I know....so I know I'm not all by my lonesome. Love you, Pepper.<p>
David~<p>I can imagine that you can relate only too well to my husband. Thank you for taking the time to write to me. I don't think that my husband would find out from someone else. We have moved several hundred miles away from our home (where it all happened)......it IS something to think about, though. I don't think I could live with myself if I told him only because I thought someone else might tell. I will tell him and I will tell him because it is what is best for him and for me. Thank you again, I truly do appreciate your words.<p>Clearview~ Believe me, I am thinking about it. I'm thinking of you, too, and I will be getting in touch with you today.<p>new-beginning~<p>Ironic, isn't it? I am of the Total and Brutal Honesty crowd myself....I think that with the realization of me actually witholding something pertinent I've come to the conclusion that I'm either a part of the crowd or I'm not. I choose to be a part of that crowd. AND, I completely understood what you were saying in your first post....and I completely agree with you. Thank you.<p>selket

back to square one? No way, you are in the 2 minute drill, and closing in on the goal line....you sell yourself waaaaaayyyyy to short....hmm, maybe that is another issue to work on, when you got the time of course.

"Do I feel worthy of his forgiveness and love? You ask me this, Pepper, and I will answer you honestly..............no. No I don't. I don't feel worthy at all. Not in the least. Worthy...uh uh. Am I worthy of his grace once again? No. Are we ever worthy of grace?"<p>Sel, I’m torn about what you should do about your present predicament, although, I‘m inclined to say, that for your own well-being, I lean on the side of truth. <p>Now, what actually caught my attention and really brought me here to offer input are your thoughts above. If after all that you have confronted and addressed, both with courage and dignity, if you’re not *worthy* hon, then nobody is.<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: dances.with.wolves ]</p>

Sel --
I'm so touched by the honesty you've shown here. And I know this is a huge decision for you.<p>I've been on the other side of the fence from you. My H had an affair that he hid from me for 15 years.<p>I can't adequately express how betrayed I feel. And its not the typical BS reaction. I don't feel anger or jealous or insecurity -- because at the point that he revealed all of this to me, I was already "out" of the marriage.<p>I feel so angry with him because he let me make major life decisions without KNOWLEDGE of the real situation. I had CHILDREN with this man. I bought houses and property. <p>I had the RIGHT to know. This is my life, these are things that will affect me forever. And its not fair that he sat back and let me make those decisions and hid the truth from me.<p>My anger is only one part of this story.<p>His guilt is the other. It changed the way he interacted with me. It created a barrier between us. We never had true intimacy, because he held back such a vital part of himself.<p>And that was a major cause of the breakdown of our relationship later.

My dearest Sel,<p>You are a wonderful and strong lady. Do you know how much you have helped me, and SO many others? You know why SNL's post ticked you off? You know why. Because that was what Selket would have said.<p>Sweetheart we are not perfect. None of us are. You add so much value to anyone who even gets near you. Are you worthy? Of COURSE you are. I know you are struggling right now and I know you will do what is best. I KNOW this. <p>And I think that H and you will work this out. WHATEVER happens, you truly have grown, you are INCREDIBLE!<p>Please don't be so hard on yourself! Making a mistake does NOT make you a bad person and it certainly doesn't make you unworthy of ANYone's love. <p>You are a very important, strong, lovely, smart, wonderful lady and a dear and true friend. <p>I love you Selket, please keep your chin up.<p>Clear

danceswithwolves~<p>Your words have truly touched a place in me that I didn't know I had and brought me to tears. Thank you, devils0nlyfriend for being a friend.<p>Lexxxy~<p>You are right...my husband does have a right to know. Thank you for sharing your experiences with me. This is not good for neither my husband nor me....nor for our daughter or our marriage.<p>Clearview~<p>I am truly overwhelmed by your words. Thank you for having faith in me. I know I will do what is right. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Sad-n-lonely~<p>Thanks for your response. I'm not sure exactly what you meant about "time" but I will take it that your post was intended to help me.<p>selket

Selket, <p>One of the ways we show our love for another is by showing him or her respect. One of the ways we respect another is by respecting his or her own autonomy and nurturing that, encouraging that, cost to us be damned.<p>And so from that perspective, SNL hit it on the mark with his advice to you --- tell your husband, respect his autonomy, face the consequences of your past. And you have faith that all of the struggle and growth you have exhibited, and the child you have co-created, will be enough to keep things in perspective and weather the storm.<p>But on the other hand -- well, I&#8217;ll get to the other hand in a bit. . . . . . . . . .<p>This is adversity, this is the where the rubber meets the road in terms of your growth, this is where you impress yourself and your hubbie and show the both of you who you truly are and what you're really made of.<p>Each choice carries with it consequences. To perpetuate the secret carries consequences; to break the silence and declare your past also brings with it consequences. You must choose, no one can do that for you, and you must bear the responsibility for that choice.<p>If you choose to tell, make sure that's all there is left to tell. Make sure your closet is clean of anything else relevant to the marriage. <p>If you choose not to understand, that choice to is understandable from the point of view that there is a statue of limitations to all of this. Just make sure that you do not stay silent because of fear, avoidance or manipulation.<p>Part of the reason to do this is because it strips away another layer of bs and pretense between you. It makes you more real, more genuine, more authentic to each other. This is one of those &#8220;two-choice dilemmas&#8221; that Schnarch speaks of (see Passionate Marriage, pp. 297-303). Integrity demands that you make your choice, and then your husband then gets to make his. SNL rightfully described the &#8220;controlling&#8221; nature of holding a secret over one&#8217;s spouse &#8211; you are controlling the info, and thus trying to control the decision your spouse can make. You are usurping his choice. That&#8217;s a not very high integrity way to go.<p>
Selket, part of the reason we tend to adopt certain beliefs about ourselves is because it feels good to do so. It feels good to believe that we are good, moral, upstanding, tough, courageous, and so on. And many people in a vacuum believe (perhaps &#8220;assume&#8221; would be a better choice of word) the best and a lot of untested things about themselves. How many women in affairs over the past couple of years have said, &#8220;Paruil (or Bad, or Selket, or Blade, etc.) I used to think just like you, but then . . . . &#8221; and then they roll out the excuses, rationalizations, justifications and tell of how they failed to live up to their standards because [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ----- drum roll ----- they met someone new ~ and --- another drum roll ---- they had feelings &#8211; they felt alive, exuberant, passionate, giddy, reborn, validated, like the person they&#8217;ve always wanted to be. And, slaves to those feelings, they went the way of their emotions and acted out inappropriately on them. And then, of course, they conclude their post with accusations of self-righteousness, etc., all generated by their inferiority complex (I think Bad called it the &#8220;you&#8217;re no better than I&#8221; disease, meaning, &#8220;if I sold out, then I have to believe that you would to, because my ego can&#8217;t handle believing that you wouldn&#8217;t falter like I did&#8221). [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Again, it&#8217;s convenient to assume certain beliefs or to believe certain things about ourselves in a vacuum. It makes us feel good. It (illegitimately, artificially) boosts our self-esteem and enhances our self-image. We are the best person we know. We live up to our principles 100% of the time, we always do the right thing, we conquer all obstacles, we are perfect, etc. The problem is, we avoid difficulty and challenge like the plague, the rubber never meets the road because we never leave our comfort zone -----------> Why did the chicken cross the road? Identity, meaning, to test her self-image, meaning, she had to get out into traffic and venture out of her comfort zone in order to find out what she&#8217;s made of. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] We keep our Win-Loss record artificially inflated in our favor because we never really legitimately put our self-opinions and self-image to the test. We hide from life. We hide from reality. <p>And if life ever intervenes, if reality ever intrudes, then we&#8217;re in for a pretty rude awakening. Bags under our eyes, pillow hair, morning breath, no make up. The mask that we&#8217;ve devoted so much time to is gone, it&#8217;s been stripped away, and the real person that we&#8217;ve been neglecting for so long is there staring at us in the mirror, bright lights and all.<p>Welcome to reality. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It&#8217;s not enough just to say we have certain values, principles and self-beliefs, they have to be tested. Under fire. In adversity. What did you say you were going to stitch on one of your pillows? Who we are in difficult times is who we are, it&#8217;s the truest measure of ourselves as persons.<p>It&#8217;s the difference between being a certain type of person and faking it. It&#8217;s the difference between pretense and authenticity. It&#8217;s the difference between what Bowen and Schnarch call solid or real self and false or pseudo-self.<p>The chameleon in us adopts certain beliefs because it feels good to do so and because it helps us to fit in. But when difficulty strikes, we shift our standards, and accusations of others being self-righteous will fly freely. (And obviously I&#8217;m not saying or suggesting that you&#8217;re doing any of this. because clearly you're not. I&#8217;m just elaborating on a certain tendency in our shared human nature.)<p>
Selket, this is your life. And I understand the difficulty of this decision you are facing. On a slightly different but similar vein, I understand, for example, how agonizing it could be to decide what to do if, for example, a woman were to be married and pregnant with another man&#8217;s baby. Should she tell or not? There are good arguments for both courses. Tell out of respect for her husband&#8217;s autonomy? Or keep the secret and take it to the grave because there is more to consider than just her hubbie&#8217;s autonomy, there is also the best interest of the soon to be born child to consider. Is it in the best interest of the child to grow up possibly in a divorced family because the husband could not handle the truth? Or is it better to take the secret to your grave, have your husband unknowingly raise another man&#8217;s child, have one secret as an obstacle in the marriage, but keep the family in tact &#8211; at least short term? A lot to consider. <p>And there is a parallel in this to your situation. If it was just you and your husband and no children in the house, then tell him is the way to go. SNL&#8217;s advice is right on the mark.<p>But there is also the best interest of your daughter to consider. There is a third person and her best interest to consider. You have &#8220;respect for your husband&#8217;s autonomy&#8221; on the one hand, and a stable two parent home, which is in the best interest of your child (how Mother Laura of me!), on the other hand. Granted, one secret may to some extent mean that there is only a pretense of stability and respect in the family, but who can tell to how much of an extent one secret (if that's all there is) pollutes a marriage?<p>And as far as your husband goes, if you do choose to tell him, then make sure he knows that this is it, that there are no more secrets awaiting him. Because this then is the start of a new and final rebuilding of trust.<p>My best advice is to think objectively about this, to discern and consider as many of the different principles and arguments pro and con involved in this as you can, and come up with a fully-baked and courageous decision.<p>Stay the course, Selket, my fellow warrior princess!!<p>With Love & Respect, <p>Paruil<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Paruil ]</p>

<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>