Isn't this really like the telephone, only better? If you don't feel like talking to people, you don't answer your phone. Here we are, hundreds of us, in our homes, scattered across the world. If something does not, at a given moment, "speak" to us, we can click off and go to the next subject. No hard feelings, no one gets hurt. If we get advice that we don't particularly agree with, the advice-giver never has to know. How about, "thanks poster X for your concern" and leave it at that. <p>And we ALL should be in bed at this hour. Where's the yawning Graemlin?<p>Snow

Morning SNL and All,
Remember when we had only a couple places to post?! There were a lot of advantages to that-many different POVs. But as the board became so large, it was too hard to follow.
Seems the philosophical issues are buried in other forums and individual questions. It would be nice to have a separate forum area for discussions of this nature, but not sure how much traffic it would have. So many on this board are looking for answers....not looking for more questions!

It would seem to me that the place for debates of any kind (with the current standards set up as they are)would be the "Other Topics" board.<p>It's kind of a "catch-all" place, and I peruse it from time to time. I've come across everything from REligious or political debates to More-of-the-same type of stuff found on GQII.<p>SNL shouldn't have too much trouble finding company there, since his VERY NAME on a thread always seems to invite lots of visitors!

Well, I am coming to post... short and sweetly... and there was a BIG issue with lots of posts on kick in the pants type posting to me... that I could not stand very frankly... BUT, truth is I can stand and do appreciate... KIND< and CARING, even LOVING posts of concern with IDEAS for change.. not ANSWERS... the I know what you dont kind of attitude... but how about the I have tried this, and you might too... the I know how you feel- and I tried this... NOT, you are blankity blankity blank, donty you see that STUPID? Kind of post...<p>I personally Do not agree with crude, mean or kick in the pants threads ever... I agree with kind loving ideas and sharing experience strength and hope..<p>WHO are any of us to tell another we are right or better than they are? And what kind of person puts someone else down for their pain, at any time, even if not in pain... name calling is not what we are here for... or mean kick in the pants threads.<p>What I am trying to say... is that advice, difference of opinion and even criticism.. though constructive.. is preferred...<p>is what all people deserve... I do not see the harleys in their material ever KICKING people in the pants!????? I do not even get it.... I get constructive criticism and help... and differences... but NOT HURTFUL COMMENTS>.. to someone who dares to bare their troubles..<p>SOme may think I am/ was looking for strokes... NO, I am trying to grow.. but I can't do that with kick in the pants... I need advice and opinions considerately and kindly written to me... maybe people of other backgrounds... natures etc... might think kick in the pants nature is OK..<p>I am here in texas where manners still matter folks, and we just don't talk to others that we care about like that.... Maybe the Harsher posters are up north (no offense to northeners... ) but maybe just an area of the US where as much sugar coating is not used by folks, eh? Who knows??// I just know that I am not here to be stroked, but I am not here to be hurt.<p>OKEY dokey?and no, I do not think another board is good idea... jmho... I think manners and rules in the ways we speak to others are something that all of us need to think about - I was raised to spaek kindly to others, adn still do... most of the time... except on my awful lb's.... so to me... when someone kicks me... I feel it as an lb!<p>thanks.<p>Honey

One more brief idea... don't friends say nice things to each other, and help each other lovingly through pain? IS harsh criticism necessalry for anyone? I think not... I think some of the support I have been offered here is invaluable... and I see nothering wrong... with a you go girl,,, or yea! type attitude... we are all people... and why do any of us need to hurt each other... I though most people came here because they are in enough pain already.... and for those oldies who like to give sooo much advice and think they know more than others... it is appalling... i think it says alot about their need to tell others what to do... maybe they0 are here doing that because their spouse is tired of their mean hurtful let me tell you what to do attitude???<p>Who knows?<p>Honey

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by honey:
<strong>One more brief idea... don't friends say nice things to each other, and help each other lovingly through pain? IS harsh criticism necessalry for anyone? Honey</strong><hr></blockquote><p>deleted response as I just realized it will do no good.<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</p>

If you were on the DivorceBusters site, you expect to talk about DIVORCE BUSTING -- i.e. the BOOK and CONCEPTS of Warner-Davis'... yeah, it's a public forum and anyone can go on and say anything, but the implication is that the boards are for working through a DIVORCE BUSTING plan!<p>THIS IS MARRIAGE BUILDERS -- based originally on the concepts by the HARLEY'S to REBUILD A MARRIAGE. If you want to talk about OTHER WAYS to rebuild your marriage, it's a free country, a public board, but don't get upset when we (as in those who APPRECIATE) the concepts TALK ABOUT THEM IN A NO-NONSENSE MANNER.<p>The last few times I've quoted Marriage Builders material, I've been told to stop! For crying out loud -- it's MARRIAGE BUILDERS -- where ELSE should I go to quote the Harley's material? <p>I am not some raving meanie who slams people on this board. I have been here (like many others) for YEARS, and remember the great crashes, the one board for all (LOVED it!) and the days when our board felt like an island of peace amidst the torments of infidelity. There is so much love here. <p>For the first time since I've been here, I feel completely like a duck out of water. It used to be that I hung out here A LOT. These days, I come a couple of times a day, because I care about some friends and want to see what's happening, and will only write to those I don't know well if something especially touches me. <p>I spend the rest of my online time at another site devoted to second marriages, which seems to be more "me" now. But I USE the MB concepts to help make my second marriage STRONG, and I believe in them, so I want to share! <p>However, the last few times I've reached out, I've been "slapped" myself. I'm not hurt, but I feel like, "well, okay, you don't want my insight or help, so I'll move along"... <p>snl, as you can see, this wasn't directed to you exactly, but rather is a commentary on what I see happening here at MB. There are still loving, supportive, wonderfully caring people here, and some lovely new folks who are striving to find the answers to save their marriages... I hope this site can survive and thrive the changes...<p>I wish you all (especially you, snl and thinker - who I WISH would TALK TO EACH OTHER AND MAKE SOME FINAL AND LASTING CHOICES that will help to heal you BOTH) peace and healing!!!!!!!!

HI Honey, sometimes criticism is good! The harshness is often the way we interpret an individual response. Harsh and offensive to you may well be just fine for me (and what i need). And vice-versa. Also depends on the moods of people, especially around here where volatility is the nature of the board.
I dont think attacking geographical location is of much use to anyone. And I am from neither the north or the south!
Sheryl, excellent points, as usual! I love being able to get other points of view. Isnt that one of the reasons we come here? It is important for me to be able to post events/issues and see where I missed the boat or stuck both feet in my mouth! Sometimes I do just need a hug, but will usually come right out and ask.
Thinker, I appreciate your concerns for the upcoming day, but the post likely qualifies as an LB.
aloha, cl

new_beginning <p>Your points are well taken. It’s a shame that you do not feel comfortable here as you once did because if I recall correctly you have some very good advice/support to give people. I hope you can find a way to stay here at least on some level.<p>This board is about MB concepts and marriage building. That's it. We need more people who understand the MB concepts to keep talking about them, sharing them. If we do not constantly pull people back to the MB concepts, remind them of them and teach them then the boards are not serving their purpose. <p>MB is, in the end a tough love approach. Too often people here are interpreting it as an anything goes, let the WS walk all over us while we grin and bear it approach. I often give tough love types of responses. If I see that a particular member is offended then I avoid that person. They don't like my style and that's ok. There are others who have thanked me for the kick in the rump. I've had people give me a kick or two in the rump here too that I desperately needed.<p>There have been a few (very few… RealityCheck comes to mind) people here who have been down right ugly and mean to my husband and me. In those cases I’ve not been shy about calling them down for their attacks. But mostly, the input here has been good, very good.<p>There are so many new people here every day that it’s hard to keep the community feeling at times. And people drop in/out so often. But there is a community of regulars here who are very supportive of each other and others. Since I’ve been on MB there has been a blowup ever few weeks. In the end everyone kisses and makes up. And of course some people have left because they felt hurt. But all in all it’s a good site (very good actually). <p>I’ve learned some ways to handle things here after been bitten a few times.. I avoid angry posters. If I don’t like the topic I ignore it. I’m here to help and be helped. If it does not fill that criteria, I do not participate.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by honey:
<strong>One more brief idea... don't friends say nice things to each other, and help each other lovingly through pain? IS harsh criticism necessalry for anyone?
Honey</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Honey,<p>A true friend will tell her friend the TRUTH no matter how hard it is. Anyone can blather nice words at each other, there is no risk. A true FRIEND will risk another's wrath because they CARE, but someone who doesnt' care will not say anything. The nicest thing that my best friend has done for me over the years is tell me the truth and kick me in the a** when I needed it. THAT is the mark of true friend, one who puts thier fear of reprisal second to my NEED to know the truth. <p>I can get "nice words" from anyone any day of the week, but it is a rare person who is caring enough to get in my face and tell me the truth when I need to hear it.

A wise person once told me, "I don't care how much you know until I know how much you care."<p>Until someone knows you care, they can't hear the truth and will only be hurt. And in my case, even if they know I care, if they are so severely damaged and traumatized by abuse of others, they will interpret the truth as "not caring". <p>Truth is irrelevant if it can't be received.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>A wise person once told me, "I don't care how much you know until I know how much you care."<p>Until someone knows you care, they can't hear the truth and will only be hurt. And in my case, even if they know I care, if they are so severely damaged and traumatized by abuse of others, they will interpret the truth as "not caring". <p>Truth is irrelevant if it can't be received.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Nice! Very nice. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

kayla...A wise person once told me, "I don't care how much you know until I know how much you care. "Until someone knows you care, they can't hear the truth and will only be hurt. And in my case, even if they know I care, if they are so severely damaged and traumatized by abuse of others, they will interpret the truth as "not caring".<p>snl...A nice homily, and like most some truth, and useful for focus...but is not a principle, and has exception.... For example, I could be dealing with the most insensitive, as**ole who ever walked the earth, but if s/he is also is the best brain surgeon available, you better believe I am gonna listen hard to what they say...information is just information, if you choose to ignore it cause of the delivery, it is your funeral, not the person giving the information, so it behooves you to have a thick skin...right? Now if you seek to persuade others, and/or have a position with a "support" mandate, then delivery becomes increasingly more important, and may even eclipse the info itself at some point...this is all situationally dependent.....likewise a person focused on delivery may even be doing a "diservice" cause the underplay the intensity of the circumstances.....finally EVERYBODY needs a quick in the [censored] on occassion, no matter how weepy, hurt they are...why? Cause woe is me is one of the strategies we use to make others feel sorry for us, and thereby lets us control them a bit (or a lot), and some are very good at it...not needing "sympathy" nearly as much as you might think...they are fairly easy to spot, cause if you ride em a bit, and they get mad, they have revealed themself.<p>Anyways all this presupposes you have the indvidual in front of you and have significant body language feedback etc... it is impossible to tell from a few words in a post whether someone needs kid glooves for the moment or not. Which brings us back to the main point, where do the hareleys set the bar, cause no matter where they do, it is gonna be a disservice to some...a debate board (although other questions seems to meet that need) gives them more latitude to set the bar lower.<p>If someone is traumatized to the point even ordinary conversation feels like not caring, they are beyond the services of a discussion board, and need a dedicated support board, populated by people who know how to give that kind of support...if instead they choose to go elsewhere there is little one can do for them, and you certainly cannot structure an on-line community around their possibly wandering in...all you can do is try to pick up the peices when they (and if) they fall apart in front of us. <p>kayla...Truth is irrelevant if it can't be received<p>snl...You got that right, and something anyone who purports to have an interest in dialog needs to keep in mind (I do)....if you lose your audience, is just a lot of hot air, and a huge waste of time...not to mention belieing your supposed interest in dialog, and revealing you as a pedagogue...not a truthseeker.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>A wise person once told me, "I don't care how much you know until I know how much you care."<p>
Truth is irrelevant if it can't be received.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
I think some may simply CONFUSE nice words with "caring," and it isn't that at all. That always astonishes me that people think like that because it's so irrational. Ted Bundy was NICE. The cashier at the grocery store says nice words to me, but I assure you that she doesn't give a damn about me. <p>On the other hand, in a forum setting, when someone takes the risk to tell me a hard truth, I know that they care and want to do the right thing. I am not deluded into thinking that everyone around here who says nice words to me does so out of caring. I much more appreciate the folks who take the time and energy to tell me what I NEED to hear rather than blow smoke up my [censored].

A board for debate could be useful for some. But I agree that most of the people came here to find some help. Not to debate whether this is right or that is wrong. The census here seems to be debate with someone by private e-mail. I feel this board is going to lose its 'customers' if a debate is attached to the forums. <p>Most people come here for comfort at first. The hurt is so real, and hard to endure, they need to know that they are a good person, that what their WS did was totally wrong, and adulterous. They want to hear this from someone else, to verify what they feel is totally natural for a BS to feel this way. To find help by others mentioning the Harley Counseling, books that others have mentioned to read, and to tell that person that they are being cared for by the MB people here.<p>Look at the ones that expressed suicide. Look how many people jumped in to help. I feel this would of not happened if a debate forum was allowed. Once again, the attendance on this board I feel will drop.

Quote by Melody Lane:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
On the other hand, in a forum setting, when someone takes the risk to tell me a hard truth, I know that they care and want to do the right thing. I am not deluded into thinking that everyone around here who says nice words to me does so out of caring. I much more appreciate the folks who take the time and energy to tell me what I NEED to hear rather than blow smoke up my [censored].<hr></blockquote><p>So sounds like you're prepared to hear the truth, how ever it comes. You are well grounded and have apretty good sense of self. You are accustomed to looking in the mirror for the source of your problems so tough truth is a blessing to you.<p>Good for you. Phil McGraw would be pleased!<p>Quote by SNL<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
...in response to: Truth is irrelevant if it can't be received<p>snl...You got that right, and something anyone who purports to have an interest in dialog needs to keep in mind (I do) [kayla just has to interject - you do???....if you lose your audience, is just a lot of hot air, and a huge waste of time...not to mention believing your supposed interest in dialog, and revealing you as a pedagogue...not a truthseeker. <hr></blockquote><p>Pedagogue - that's an interesting word - haven't heard it since I was a music major, so I know what it means. And from the look of your posts and responses to people, coming on a Marriage Builders' site and arguing the merits of the Marriage Builders' principles, that word describes you much more than "truthseeker.<p>When truth becomes a whip, a means of abuse, it cannot remain the truth. <p>Of course, if I have you wrong, and you truly are a truth seeker, I have a challenge for you. Leave behind the safety of big words. and focus only on using "feeling" words. Thoughts are not feelings. So opinions don't count in this exercise. <p>If you are seeking truth, you must involve the heart, or what you find will always be incomplete. Maybe that's why you're still looking. Try this challenge for at least three weeks, and then you can tell me if debate has merit in a marriage. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

i have to wonder now after sifting thru 3 pages of people telling you repeadly the same thing over and over and over and over again, have you yet figured it out? <p>i got an idea, how about you put as much effort into fixing your marriage and yourself as you do making a mockery of yourself here on the boards. <p>You need to keep working on yourself, these boards are here because we need an outlet to vent our frustrations, rather than going to jail for murder, this is not easy, but maybe you have not yet realized that.<p>this is your kick in the rear to do more than you are now. You can thank me later, ok?

SNL...Cripes! dude, I know I’m new here, but it's hard to determine what it is YOU really need most? A piece of a$$, or a hug?<p>Feel free not to answer [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: dances.with.wolves ]</p>

kayla...Pedagogue - that's an interesting word - haven't heard it since I was a music major, so I know what it means. And from the look of your posts and responses to people, coming on a Marriage Builders' site and arguing the merits of the Marriage Builders' principles, that word describes you much more than "truthseeker.<p>snl..Noted...<p>kayla...When truth becomes a whip, a means of abuse, it cannot remain the truth.<p>snl..I agree, but I see very little of that here, and is not the issue I think (IMO, or the moderators). <p>kayla...Of course, if I have you wrong, and you truly are a truth seeker, I have a challenge for you. Leave behind the safety of big words. <p>snl...Hmm.. a little reverse elitism I guess, why stop there, let's just rewrite the dictionary and delete any word over 5 letters, wadda ya think? <p>I am curious kayla, why do we have "big" words anyways? And why should we behave in a manner that reduces communication, by reducing the numbers of words and thereby reducing specificity? Further don't ya think the general noise level (and chance of confusion) increases if we eliminate big words, and substitute a half dozed "small" words in order to make the point clear? And what is wrong with people pulling out the dictionary when they don't understand a word (something I do often) and educating themself...actually I had to look up pedagogue, I wasn't for sure it fit.<p>kayla...and focus only on using "feeling" words. Thoughts are not feelings. So opinions don't count in this exercise. <p>snl.. You lost me, what was is the point? Surely you are suggesting rational contemplation (no feelings) isn't appropriate/helpful to making behavioural choices?<p>kayla...If you are seeking truth, you must involve the heart, or what you find will always be incomplete. <p>snl...Couldn't have said it better myself, and it is exactly what I am doing. If my heart wasn't involved I wouldn'tr being doing all this. My heart does not want to be married, my brain is where the trouble is, it says I made committments, promises, etc.... I have had to look at that and figure out what that means, and where did I go wrong, what was wrong with my programming... now I know, my basic assumptions about life were mistaken..... I assumed marriage = love, and that marriage was about duty, so that meant duty = love...and that fit was irrelevant.... I was mistaken, not how human psychology (or God's will) works at all.<p>Kayla...Maybe that's why you're still looking. Try this challenge for at least three weeks, and then you can tell me if debate has merit in a marriage.<p>snl....No thanks, you are not using debate as I mean it, guess should have started off thread using discussion instead, the word has different meanings, and those voicing opposing opinions are using it in a formal sense, a compeititive sense, instead of the truth seeking sense. <p>digit... have to wonder now after sifting thru 3 pages of people telling you repeadly the same thing over and over and over and over again, have you yet figured it out?<p>snl..yes....pretty much.<p>digit...i got an idea, how about you put as much effort into fixing your marriage and yourself <p>snl..On what basis do you think I have not put in such effort? And why do you think participation of these boards is not useful effort in reconcilling marital disharmony?<p>digit...as you do making a mockery of yourself here on the boards.<p>snl...I think this is the kind of personal attack the moderators disapprove of, what purpose is served by it? And have you taken a board survey re mockery? Or is it your own opinion? If your own, how do you define mockery, and why do I qualify? If your statement was made to be helpful thanks, if namecalling then perhaps you should apologize. Btw, I think I conduct myself with civility, and stay on topic (at least maritally, but does drift from MB stuff, so do many others however so guess is ok), so I fail to see any basis for charging mockery.<p>digit...You need to keep working on yourself, these boards are here because we need an outlet to vent our frustrations, rather than going to jail for murder, this is not easy, but maybe you have not yet realized that.<p>snl...???????? I doubt very seriously the primary reason for the boards is to vent frustrations, but if so, why do you object to my doing so (in my own way)? But certainly venting is part of the process, and I think we all understand that.<p>digit...this is your kick in the rear to do more than you are now. You can thank me later, ok?<p>snl...Thanks.<p>dances...SNL...Cripes! dude, I know I’m new here, but it's hard to determine what it is YOU really need most? A piece of a$$, or a hug?
Feel free not to answer.<p>snl....What do I need? Hmmmm... good question, wonder what anyone needs, or do we need what we think we need...<p>but I will take a stab at it....hmm.... hmmmm... Ok, I think I can sum it up in the short version... I need to feel safe.<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I need to feel safe.<hr></blockquote><p>That comment surprised me. Safe from what?<p>Pepper