I've been very very patient with you over the last few days. I posted several very honest, no-nonsense replies to your posts asking for help and opinions. You made it very clear that my opinion was not helpful and asked me to stop. I did.<p>You then took advantage of my compliance with your request by not only continuing to complain for several days about me in that thread...but you also started a separate thread to complain in. And since I had agreed not to respond to you, I had no way to defend myself (not that I needed to, many others said everything that needed to be said). And you have also taken every chance in other threads to complain and moan about my replies to you. I have not taken your bait, as I have no desire to start or be involved in a message board war that serves no purpose; certainly it helps no one's marriage.<p>Since your initial complaint, everyone has treated you with kid gloves, giving you only the validation that you requested. And that's not enough for you - it seems you'll only be happy if everyone agrees with you that what I did was horrible and unconsionable. Even those that defended what I said to you were written off as simply "friends" - did it occur to you how insulting you were to those individuals - to assume that those people who disagreed with you were somehow being dishonest and unfairly biased?<p>Let me assure you of one thing. The people in my life whom I am fortunate to call "friend" are people of superb character, who would never take a stand against what they thought was right simply to defend me.<p>My friends love me enough to tell me the honest truth, and I depend on them for that honest and fairness.<p>Most of the people on this board are people I have come to profoundly respect. You have no right to say such things.<p>You may have interpreted the things I said to you as unfair, harsh name calling. We obviously disagree about what name-calling constitutes. What I did was simply describe your behavior. I did not call YOU names.<p>And let me point out, that the terms I used were mild when you put them into context with the behavior you have described. Temper tantrum is what I call your behavior when you destroyed your H's rug because you were angry that he lived separately from you. Others might call your often drunk confrontations with your H as borderline domestic violence.<p>What should I call it when you drive drunk and then blame it on your H ? Then you log in here and ask for support after doing it! Do you not see the problem here? <p>When you call up your FIL and scream at him against your husbands wishes - and then get hurt because your H is angry - and you log in here to rage about it, and ask for support of your actions...what should I call it? Is there a politically correct term for temper tantrum that I should use instead?<p>What should I call it when you trust an untrustworthy person with the lives of your children, somehow expecting that the promise of an alcoholic will keep them safe?<p>Your behavior is out of control and someone may DIE if you don't change. <p>In my opinion, hugs and validations and love is simply allowing you to remain comfortable with your OWN actions that are hurting you and your children. <p>But you've made it clear thats what you want from these boards, and you don't want to hear the unvarnished reality. That's fine. It's your life and your choice to do so.<p>It's very sad that you do not wish to put the help, support and advice of the wonderful people on this board to better use in helping Honey become a happy, healthy person, regardless of whether or not your husband is still drinking and cheating. But it is your choice, and in the future I will continue to respect that choice.<p>But in the future, if you have a problem with me, please address it to me. Your constant nonstop complaining about me (look at me, poor Honey, BR was mean to me) in every thread you can fit it into is not helpful to anyone here.<p>My email is at bramblerose_mb@yahoo.com - you can address your complaints there.

BR, I may (perhaps) be forgiven for thinking that much of this sounds like a replay of an old quarrel that was already settled yesterday, in this thread:<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=015803<p>Since then Honey did discuss "hurtful posts," but in the general context of debate, without naming you. She was addressing an issue that others had raised. If you disagree with her on the issue, I'd suggest joining that thread to discuss the issue itself without making it personal.<p>I know Honey may be making decisions in her life that you feel anxious about. But we can't control those decisions, just as she can't control the behavior of her alcoholic H. We may influence people, yes. But if we don't try to avoid antagonizing them in needless ways, they're likely to reject our influence. We can influence people, but we can never control them; and when we can't, we can only remain detached--and pray the Serenity Prayer.<p>Peace to you both. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

BR,<p>How thoughtful you are with words!! I agree with your post. Until recently she had been very dominating of the board.<p>I for one look for you to give advice and insight to a post or thread, as it comes from a place where you have already been. You are so capable of seeing things so clearly that we ourselves can't most times see, you have a most unique way of sharing that that opens our eyes.<p>I for one thank you for responding to a post where you see that you may have an input, and I for one don't want to hear things only the way that I want them to be. I need to see the objective view.<p>I chose who and when I post to others and some I just don't see where my input wil change anything. So I refrain and save my fingers to share with someone else.<p>God Bless you,<p>Dawn [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Never mind, none of my business... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p> jd<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: jdmac1 ]</p>

<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: honey ]</p>

<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: honey ]</p>

<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: honey ]</p>

<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: honey ]</p>

Honey I never reply to these battle things but this one is out of control. BrambleRose is someone I don't even know but I do respect her opinion. If fighting is your game plan then please do it elsewhere and allow those of us with valid problems to use it as it is intended to be used. ENOUGH act like an adult and let it drop

I second the motion!!!

I am tired of the pain your posts inflict on me BR... I wrote back and I did not like what I wrote, so I have erased.. it seems we are not just of the same... thinking... I have not tried to offend.. but tried to honestly make a nonhurtful point... enough said... Please quit talking bad about me on the boards.. I am sorry you feel so strongly about me.... I think we are here to help others... and I have plenty of people in my life.. that adress my specific issues... I am sorry that you misconstrued some of my vents.. and seem to think I am a pretty terrible person... I am not.... I wish the best to you, and I am sorry if you think I have offended you... I was hoping you might see how hurtful some of your comments are.. but it seems you think your opinion is right... and that is ok, please keep in mind you hurt others and not just me... some of your posts are wonderful.. but attacking others... I do not agree... I told you how hurtful you were to me.. and here you go blasting me again... I do not want to be of the same cloth..<p>I hope the best to you.<p>H

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by honey:
<strong>I am tired of the pain your posts inflict on me BR... I wrote back and I did not like what I wrote, so I have erased.. it seems we are not just of the same... thinking... I have not tried to offend.. but tried to honestly make a nonhurtful point... enough said... Please quit talking bad about me on the boards.. I am sorry you feel so strongly about me.... I think we are here to help others... and I have plenty of people in my life.. that adress my specific issues... I am sorry that you misconstrued some of my vents.. and seem to think I am a pretty terrible person... I am not.... I wish the best to you, and I am sorry if you think I have offended you... I was hoping you might see how hurtful some of your comments are.. but it seems you think your opinion is right... and that is ok, please keep in mind you hurt others and not just me... some of your posts are wonderful.. but attacking others... I do not agree... I told you how hurtful you were to me.. and here you go blasting me again... I do not want to be of the same cloth..<p>I posted brutally honestly here some of the worst moments of life during this terrible mess.. my H has started... I know I messed up, and I know I make mistakes... I posted here for experience , strength and hope... but not to be put down , made fun of, or told by others how right they are.. and how I SHOULD LISTEN TO THEM< AND HEED THEIR ADVISE>. since they know sooo much. I am sorry you do not see your own err... I wish you could take a little feedback too.... it would not hurt to sandwich your advise with a little love. <p>I hope the best to you.<p>H</strong><hr></blockquote>

Honey,<p>As a General lurker here at MB, I must say that you do a lot of posting on your own threads, there is probably a reason for that. Just like on this thread.<p>The people that are here are here to gain support and offer assistance to those that they feel may benfit from it. Am not sure what your reason is. You seem to post a lot in anger, and nothing really relevent and then answer your own post. Perhaps you should journal some of this as opposed to posting everything here.<p>Just a lurker that usually avoids your post.

Honey im sorry you feel so put out at BR replies to you, personaly ive always hoped that BR will respond to my posts as she has been there, done it and survived it all and is in good strong recovery.<p>That to me puts her in a place to be able to tell me where i am going wrong and believe me i have done a lot of that.
I find it an honour that BR takes time to post to people like us who need advice, when her own M is in recovery, she could just leave the boards and get on with her life.<p>So i would suggest if you ask for advice you take it as it is meant, its given to help you stop making mistakes, not to get at your personality!!!
Lizzle<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: lizzle ]</p>

I am not against you Br, or anyone that comes to br defense..., you do not realize... much of the advise br postsis good... I do not like the above specific example of her recants of my mistakes.... and other similar posts... where does that get anyone? I'm sure there are people out there who take harsh criticism well- but, I do not. I have also been told by br... in several posts... WHY did you not follow my advise? WEll, that offended me... as I am not perfect yet.... and I do not take heed of all the posts offered here...and go follow others advise to the t... sure I welcome and consider and think about others thoughts... I thought that is what we were here for... but specifically saying... YOU NEED TO DO THINGS MY WAY... is what offends me... and the I AM RIGHT, YOU ARE WRONG attitude... I am not saying this is just br... this could apply to anyone... I am just someone who does not do well when spoken to that way... sure... some people like to be told what to do... I don't. I like discussuion... input, and thoughts... and yes... I prefer it.. spoken in kind non-hurtful words and tones... OK?<p> thanks, HONEY

She hasn't talked to you, with the exception of this one post since you asked her to. Grow up already and knock it off. Concentrate on fixing your marriage. You keep talking about being tired of the pain she inflicted on you, give us a break already. You're hurting because of your marriage and it's problems and deflecting it here. Stop it. <p> This is rediculous and very juniour HS, please for the love of pete, put that energy you're using to feel victimized here into healing yourself. This is such a waste.<p> Btw, I don't agree with BR's opinion on much but this whole thing is a bunch of nonsense.

For what it's worth, I wanted to throw my two cents in. And I feel I would like to make it perfectly clear that I am not taking *any* sides in this, at all. Again, for what it's worth, here is my take on the MB boards...<p>I consider BR to be a very wise woman who has been through what most of us are going through right now. I consider her a success story and someone who is very skilled in the MB practices. She is in a very strong recovery and, despite her own problems, still comes on these boards to offer advice, encouragement and support. I consider that to be a very selfless act and one I appreciate very much. I, too, look forward to what BR has to say about any posts I create.<p>Having said that, there have been times when I simply haven't "got" what she's said to me. Sometimes, she'll post some advice, I'll read it, take it on board, and then post again because I've made a huge LB. She's then come back and posted the *same* advice, only this time, I "get it", heed that advice and usually find that she was right. Again, this is just my own personal experience.<p>If, at any time, I feel like someone is saying something to me that I can't relate to, I thank them for their time and input and then I leave it alone. It's not my role here to judge anyone or their opinion, criticize if I'm being told something I don't want to hear, or feel attacked (which I've never felt). I'm certainly not telling Honey how to behave on the boards, nor am I criticizing her. I'm simply saying that these boards are a great resource for trying to heal yourself and your marriage. Take what you want. Give what you can. And leave the rest alone. It's really as simple as that. <p>Honey, I hope you can continue to find what you need here. I hope you don't stop posting or trying to work on yourself or your marriage. <p>BR, thank you for continued support, advice, wisdom and for sharing your knowledge and experience with everyone who is hurting. <p>And that's about it really! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hugs to everyone,
VE

Honey ~
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am tired of the pain your posts inflict on me BR... I wrote back and I did not like what I wrote, so I have erased.. <hr></blockquote><p>Good for you.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>it seems we are not just of the same... thinking... I have not tried to offend.. but tried to honestly make a nonhurtful point... <hr></blockquote><p>Honey, you made your point repeatedly over and over on 2 threads specific to this issue. And you have continued to make that point every chance you get. You apologized, I was happy to let it go, but next thing I know, you are complaining again in SNLs thread about the boards!<p>Why did you apologize if you didn't mean to stop? Did I misinterpret what you apologized for?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>enough said... Please quit talking bad about me on the boards..<hr></blockquote> <p>I haven't been. In fact, thats my complaint right now, is that you won't stop talking about this! <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am sorry you feel so strongly about me.... <hr></blockquote><p>Not only do you not understand how I feel about you, but you aren't responsible for my feelings. So don't apologize. My feelings are my responsiblity.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think we are here to help others... and I have plenty of people in my life.. that address my specific issues... <hr></blockquote><p>So what do you think I am doing here? Part of my healing process has been being able to help other people in a way that I wish I had been given help. I did not have MB when I went through the worst of my H's affair. I had an Al-Anon sponsor, who while gave me fantastic help and advice, wasn't experienced with affairs.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am sorry that you misconstrued some of my vents.. and seem to think I am a pretty terrible person... I am not.... <hr></blockquote><p>I don't think you are a terrible person. I think you are a very sick person who is blinded very badly by the presence of active alcoholism in her life.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I told you how hurtful you were to me.. and here you go blasting me again... <hr></blockquote><p>Had you let the subject drop, you would not have heard from me again. But you didn't. <p>Now I'm going to share something with you that I hope you actually listen to. <p>Before my H moved out, he was horrible to me, and spent many all-nighters out of contact with me. I was scared to death - I didn't know where he was or what he was doing and I thought he might be having an affair but I didn't want to believe it. After he moved out and his affair went PA, he became even worse.<p>I was hysterical. So I called up all my relatives and my friends and I vented. And they all said: Poor BR, you dear, how do you do it? You don't deserve this, how awful, yadda yadda yadda. <p>And I felt validated and loved for a short time. But it didn't bring my H back, and I learned absolutely nothing from it. Very shortly, I'd start to feel horrible again, unless I called up my "support" and got validated.<p>Nothing changed, except that my husband started behaving even worse.<p>Now, in all of this, I was also calling my Al-Anon sponsor and crying to her. My Al-Anon sponsor listened to my vents, and then held a mirror up to my face and told me to look at what she saw, my husband saw, and everyone else saw.<p>IT HURT. And I hated her for "kicking me when I was already down". How dare she say those outrageous, HURTFUL things about me. SHE had never been hurt like this (I was ignoring the fact that she had been horribly physically abused by her mother, and by her first husband). My Al-Anon sponsor told me that I was participating in my hurtful situation. I screamed, I cried, I pouted and I felt terribly abused by her. She was MEAN. So, I'd hang up and say to myself that I wasn't going to call HER again, why couldn't she just understand that all I needed was a little kindness and love?<p>So back I'd go to all my "support" and they loved and validated me. And my good feelings were more and more temporary and my bad feelings were becoming worse and worse. I kept demanding that my H quit drinking, quit cheating, and stop being mean to me. I tried every possible manipulation and control method I could dream up. And trust me, I'm a pro at manipulation - my own dad taught me well.<p>I did this cycle of hating my sponsor, trying to manipulate my H into changing, and calling my "support" for love for probably 6 months.<p>Finally the pain of staying the same was greater than the pain of change. I had to change because staying the same hurt even worse.<p>I finally got it. It was clear that *I* didn't know the answers. I didn't know if my sponsor had them either, but it was clear that SOMETHING had worked for her, because she was happy. So trying something new that had been proven to work for someone else was at least a better spot to be in than doing MY same old stuff that was getting me nowhere. <p>So I started listening to my sponsor and working on ME. When she held up that mirror, it still hurt like hell, but I finally became grateful that I had someone in my life who wasn't afraid that I'd think she was mean if she told me the truth. She loved me enough to say what had to be said, even at the risk of my opinion or her.<p>She taught me how to do what was right, how to draw boundaries and how to protect myself and my kids, regardless of my fear of being abandoned by my husband. She helped me rebuild my self-esteem. Mean huh? Often I didn't like her answers, but I was willing to try because she had experience that I didn't. My trust in her saved my life.<p>I found MB a year ago. My H's affair started in 99. So when I found MBs, I was already in a much healthier spot than when I started. So while MB helped me recover my marriage, I also owe a huge amount of gratitude to the one woman who didn't care how much I hated her while she told me the truth about my behavior. <p>Now the difference here is that you asked for opinions, I gave mine, and you made it clear that mine is not what you want to hear. And thats fine, I won't give it unless you ask it. But you seem to be taking advantage of my willingness to respect your requests to continually trash me as if you are a victim, repeatedly asking everyone to feel sorry for you, even after apologizing to me.<p>That seems to be your pattern. You vent, you ask for opinions, and unless they mirror yours, you ignore them. I've never said that MY answers are right and yours are wrong. I have suggested that if you are here for help, instead of ignoring the advice you get, from anyone, take some of it and see what happens. What have you got to lose? <p>But the problem is Honey that you have been here for awhile, and when you were a newcomer, everyone was very careful to offer hugs and support. That stopped when it became clear that you were not listening to ANYONE. Try something new, what you are doing isn't working...is it?<p>Just stop this already. I'm not going to shove my answers down your throat. But please reciprocate by refraining from griping about ME every chance you get.<p>If you still need to complain - i've given you my email address. I don't have yours or I would have sent this whole thread to your address rather than posting it here.<p>Truce ok? I won't tell you what I think, you live your life the way you wish - just leave me out of it.

Clarification: Honey, I don't think anyone here wants you to leave, I don't. It's just very frustrating to watch you flail wildly in all directions, snapping at everyone that disagrees with you. You are posting on a board that is public with a lot of different people with a lot of different opinions. There will be those you don't agree with and you can't start a war with all of them.
This board is a good place and I'd hate to see it turn into a flamefest because you're hurting. You're hurting like we all are. Thankfully my no good cheating, lying H is gone but since you're staying the course you're going to have to learn to be more open minded.
We are all not like you and nor should we be. If you choose to air your problems in a public forum be prepared to hear opinions you don't like. Don't like them? Ignore them and use what you find helpful. Ripping the head off of anyone that crosses you is not good and is also something you need to apply in RL. Your temper and your ability to hold onto every offense like a badger is not helping you, your H or your children. Please calm down, breath, reflect and give everything you say and so some thought.
No one hates you, you just can be very frustrating and hard to get through to.

Honey,<p>I’ve stayed out of the problem you have with MelodyLane on purpose. For one thing I’ve also given you some tough love posts just as she has. I’ve said a lot of what she has said to you. I happen to agree with MelodyLane on many points. So I fear that now my posts to you will only anger you. And I do not post to people who will not take my advice. Why? Not because I think that my advice is perfect and I have the only answer. But because I have nothing to offer them.<p>Honey I don’t post to you much anymore because I don’t see you taking anyone’s advice. If what you are doing does not work, then do something different. Keep trying different approaches until you find one that works. I only see you posting here in anger and venting. That’s fine if you want to use this forum that way. At least you are not venting at your H. But I’m not into venting posts. The moment I saw you taking someone’s, anyone’s advice I’d be much more likely to reach out to you again.<p>MelodyLane shared more of her story with you here.. about her sponsor. Have experienced the same thing she did with a validating support system. In my previous marriage, my friends and family were just like hers. All their support, hugs and validations did for me and my marriage was to help me not learn one thing about how to repair my marriage. I did spend a lot of money and time reading self help books and going to counselors. I did learn a lot from them on how to improve myself and what to expect in a healthy marriage. Unfortunately I did not find MB, Divorce Busters, or anything else that really helped rebuild marriages. I did not have anyone like her sponsor who cared enough for me to fight for ME.<p>Through this, and other things that have happened in my life I have learned that the last thing I need are ‘friends’ who do nothing by be nice and validating of me. They are not friends. They are spineless wimps. Today I pick my friends very carefully. If they cannot stand up to me and tell me when they see me going out of line, then I have no use for them. The nice/validating sort of people are acquaintances in my life. <p>When I discovered STL’s (current H) affairs I told only three people of it. My counselor. And my sister L and his sister E. Why? Because they are the only two people I know who would be objective and support me in the right way. I knew that if I told the others my marriage would be destroyed by their well intended ‘help’ and support. Thanks God I also found MB.<p>Honey, we all have our own style. Over time we all adjust our style/approach by what we read here. Many of the people who post here have taught me a lot. Going at a person in anger will never teach them anything. When we attack a person in anger all they hear/remember is the anger. The entire point we were trying to make is lost.<p>MelodyLane’s approach is often from a touch love approach. So are mine. That is what has worked in with us in our lives. So we give back what we know, what has worked for us. It takes a lot of time and energy to post here. Every post is a gift of someone’s valuable time and energy. I am sure that you have not always liked every gift you have been given in your life. But surely, even if you don’t like the gift, you thank the giver graciously. You may put it in the closet, or give it to another friend (one who does not know the other) at their next birthday or Christmas. But you don’t tell them that you hate the gift. My mother is the only person I know who tells the giver that the gift is awful. She did this we me so much when I was young that I give her very few gifts. See, that’s how people respond.<p>This is an open forum. If anyone does not like what another person posts to them then they can either ignore it or politely ask them to not post to them any more. And then leave it at that. No one here cares to read and get sucked into a forum war. It wastes too much valuable energy and emotions.<p>Melodylane has responded to your request to not post to her. I am sure that she will never post to you again after your latest posts. So just drop it in all threads. Let’s get back to the purpose of this board.