Got no one. My mom is doing worse, kids are driving me up a wall. I told my H I wanted a divorce last night because he is not here when I need him because he is so wrapped up in himself and I have just given up on him. I'm trying to stay strong and help my dad, but everything is just so overwhelming...<p>Thanks, guess I just needed to cry a little.
HbH

Hi, <p>Been thinking of you. Sorry your mom is not doing better. Hbh, this is a hard time and you know this is not the right time to be adding to your burdens. <p>Kinda a male thingy when they don't meet our needs during a time of crisis (not all men but many of them). <p>Hugz my dear. Let me know if you need to talk. <p>L.

For what its worth, you have us!
Just think of us as the dysfuctional, distant but caring relatives you always wished you had [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] We'll stand by you or be here to lend an ear for you no matter what. <p>((((((BIGHUGS))))))))<p>Sorry about your parents condition, Stay strong! We'll pray for you and them.<p>-HI<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: HangingIn ]</p>

ack double<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: HangingIn ]</p>

(((((HBH)))))<p>This is probably not the best time to make a decision like that...ya know?<p>Your mom is still in my prayers.

How about a bunch?!<p>((((((((((((((((((((HbH))))))))))))))))))))

Hi HbH,<p>Orchid is right .... on top of it being a somewhat male thing, your H is struggling with all the post-A dukey (OC death, withdrawal = guilt).<p>Maybe I should apologize to you, HbH. In your post regarding your Mom's illness I asked if H was supporting you and there for you. I shouldn't have done that. He, understandably, is still dealing with his issues. I'm sure any other time he would have been more attentive to you during this rough time.<p>I'm sorry you're going thru so much. Try and take care of yourself. Give your fears and hurt to God right now, Hon. <p>Please be okay.<p>Love,
Jo

HbH...put your right hand on your left shoulder and your left hand on your right shoulder and....squeeze. That is a hug from me to you.
This is such a horrible time for you. I will keep you and your mom in my thoughts and prayers.
BH

{{{HbH}}}
I am so sorry about your mom. My mom passed away after a mistake during relatively minor surgery. You feel so helpless, but you can always make the decision about D.
For now take care of yourself so you can take care of your mom.
Love, Estes

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HbH}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<p> {{{{{{{{{{{{{{HbH}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<p>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HbH}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<p> You needed more than one. So sorry for all you are dealing with. Praying for your Mom.<p> jd

((((((((HBH)))))))) and lots of prayers and positive vibes.

HbH,<p>So sorry to hear you are on your own and dealing wiht your mom..I know how hard that is. Please know that we are thinking and praying for you....take care of yourself.....{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}

Thanks for the hugs everyone. <p>I'm sorry, but if my H can't get off his as* and deal with his issues when something like THIS happens, he will never do it and I just don't want to be married to someone like that. <p>My husband was like a son to my mom and he won't see her even though she's been asking to see him for over 9 months. All because he is chickensh*t he will run into SOMEONE that cares more about yelling at him for all the horrible things he did to his family (which no one really knows anything substantial about anyway). As IF anyone in my family will have ANYTHING on their mind other than my mom, I mean PLEASE... It is totally absurd and has to do with his anxiety attacks that he won't deal with. <p>AND, just these past two days we were talking IN DETAIL about these freakin' attacks, and he tells me "he will try" and this and that, all words, then when it comes down to it all - he can't do it. As usual. And he waits to the last freakin' minute to back out and he just is totally inconsiderate and cruel about it.<p>The man can't even make a phone call or go to the store without geting severe attacks and yet he thinks it will just "go away" with time, or he can somehow master it - mind over matter. <p>I'm sorry, I cannot deal with it and I shouldn't have to and he knows it. THAT is why I said I want a divorce. It has been pending for quite some time now and this just seals it. If he can't step up and do it now , when I need him most - then to he*l with him. He is not powerless, he can do whatever the hel* he wants (and has done it plenty of times before when it was something REALLY important to him).<p>I do not like him, I hate this person he is right now, and he knows it. I do not want to be married to this man. I have been waiting and giving him time/space in the HOPE that he may actually decide to be the person HE wants, which, by the way, just so happens to be the type of person I want as well - yet when all is said and done he is just living in his little world of self-pity, with no direction, all words, no action, and no hope for change.<p>I told him as long as I had a TINY bit of hope, just a little that I would keep trying. That would have to be completely gone for me to want a divorce, and you know what? It is finally, I have no hope that he will change. None.<p>So, do I really want a divorce? From the man I am with now - absolutely, he is pond scum. From the man I know he can be - no. But given that my brain has overruled my heart I have finally accepted that he is just not capable of being that man. <p>I did talk to him tonight and explained pretty much the same stuff I said here. What choice do I have? It has nothing to do with love, it has to do with accepting who he is and realizing that I just don't want to be married to someone like that.<p>And alot of that has to do with just being totally disgusted that I can be married to someone who could POSSIBLY be treating my mom's illness in this way. I mean what type of cold,cruel,heartless person does these things? It's just wrong and I'm not going to accept that "he has his issues", "he needs space", and "he is fuc*ed up". You know what? Grow up. This is more important than any of that.<p>And of course we talked just a little while ago, and all these words come spewing out, all of which I believe none of and I just tell him - show me.<p>I still want a divorce, but no matter what, it can't be until June (various reasons), so I think after this thing with my mom slows down a bit, I will just draw up some pseudo non-legal papers for now and see if he will live by them until we can get something legal in place a few months from now. And if not, well, that would just suck, but I guess people get law degrees for a reason, huh?<p>And I won't dare even try to have any hope that THIS time is different, THIS time he is capable of following through on all his words, cuz' you know what? I am just sick of believing in him. <p>As far as I am concerned - I'm done. If he wants to go do his thing and keep trying - fine, I don't care, I'm just not dealing with him any more until I can get stuff situated with my mom.<p>And, no, she is not doing any better. 5 1/2 days on the respirator and counting... No signs of improvement.<p>I don't suppose anyone knows any good notary public's that want to do a good deed, do they? My parents had all this stuff ready to go, procrastining, figured they would just do it the week my mom got out of the hospital, and well, you know how that goes, now they are pretty much screwed legally unless a miracle happens. They have no insurance and the only way for her to get free care is if SHE signs the paperwork, which she can't do because she is incapacitated, and my dad can't sign it cuz' they never got the power of attorney and all the other stuff done.<p>I will just have to accept that my H will not be here for me, which next to my mom being the way she is, is pretty much just as devastating. To go through it is one thing, to go through it w/o the support of the person you love is just 20x worse. I have been with this man nearly 50% of my life, it just doesn't seem natural or right to me. Yeah, I know I have family and friends, but honestly, I have never been able to share how I really feel with them. I am the rock, supporting and helping them. My H, my kids somewhat and MB, that's where I can really be myself and let it out. MB is great, it just is not quite the same, y'no?<p>Sigh. Okay, I better go to bed, my kids will be up in 4 hours. Thanks for listening to me vent and for all the big hugs. <p>HbH

Hi HBH i was feeling so sorry for myself this morning, then i just read your post my problems are nothing compared with the pain you have.<p>Im so sorry about your mum, and i cant understand your H being like he is when you need support so badly.
(((((((HBH))))))) to you and your family.
Take care.
Liz

Just adding my hug, HBH.<p>I have great respect for you--you are a strong and good person! And I wish you the best!<p>Rusty

Hugs... and prayers...<p>Cali

sorry about your mom too hbh, we had this happen similarly in our family, my wifes dad started going downhill last year, got very bad in december and died jan 2 (85 yo). Is very hard on top of marital disharmony, but even though she and I have serious issues, it was not difficult for me to be supportive of her in that way, although she did complain when she thought it was not enough, but I understood the pressure she was under, so no big deal. She even kinda vented like you are here (but not as bad, cause I was doing stuff for her), saying I didn't care and wouldn't be there for her at the end...it was all mixed up with her emotions/frictions about us....as it turned out (to be brief) after her dad passed away and the funeral, she acknowledged and thanked me for being there for her (and I was, in several important ways). It isn't any better here, but the point I am trying to make is marital disharmony is about the couple, and how they work (or don't work), not necessarily that either is a bad person, just that they can't be married.....but an outside event, and how you deal with it, is about you, the individual.... Even when we are in a bad time (more and more often now), and kinda at odds, I still know, (and I think she does too) that if some external event occured, we could count on each other in that sense....<p>You know I kinda calls it as I sees it, and I was reluctant to post to you cause of your mom right now...but since you have expressed yourself about the issues, and what I have to say is only about that, I will risk some feedback for what it is worth.<p>Clearly part of your feelings are anger at your H for not being there, enhanced by the emotional circumstances involved at these kinds of times, but I do think we learn things at every juncture in life....one school of thought would suggest you just kinda sluff off H stuff (and your feelings) cause this is not a normal everyday time...I kinda feel differently, how our spouses (friends, co-workers, whatever) behave under stress is very revealing, and of utmost importance....and we shouldn't forget it, or ignore it and just wait for "normal" to come back.... People wear masks, we all do to some extent, the purpose being to control the world around us.... the less mask we wear, the more vulnerable we feel, cause we have no where to hide (so to speak)... successful marriage requires trust, ideally absolute trust, it is the primary ingredient in in-love (and plays no role in caring love, or sacrificial love, which is why those kinds of love have nothing to do with marital bonding). Well, like most "perfect" things, I suppose we never actually reach perfect trust, hence our need to forgive occassionally, but we need to be reasonably close to be in-love..... and I think in a very real sense, the degree of trust we have (and instinctively know) determines the um..... quality or strength we feel for the marriage....<p>and if it is less than where we set the bar (and we all set it different places based on our internal paradigms a la Dr. Phil and life strategies), then we start feeling a need for more space from someone...and if that someone is a spouse, the boundary is at least separation (temporary), but the permananent adjustment is divorce....hence your outbursts here. Frankly I think you knew/suspect this long ago (as you know), but because such is so difficult/confusing/painful for us (messy human beings), we take varying amounts of time to finally "get" there. You are not there yet, but this additional proof (so to speak) re the nature of the emotional trust, is frustrating and generates anger cause he promised you more. But as we all know, talk is cheap, even when "we" (any of us) mean well, actions are all that really count....and his track record is (unfortuneately) at odds with his words.<p>Obviously you should not make any decisions now, the rule of not acting in anger is a good one, but anger should not be ignored, it is an appropriate response and an important motivator (that is why we have the emotion, it is one of our most valuable tools), when applied correctly.... easier said than done sometimes [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] hence the notion of "cooling off" time.<p>Now to my point (finally), I think you have analyzed your H very well, you a smart woman, and have gone the distance with yourself (growth) and patience with your H. I have always thought he was a player, and I still do....I stopped posting to you cause you made your choice, and I didn't want to rain on your parade. Whether we like it or not, a sizeable percentage of our population is not marriage material, that means many marriages are not going to work like they should (assuming marriage is supposed to be a safe, nurturing, vulnerable place for BOTH, parties). Whatever the reason, be it personality disorders (that are essentially permanent), obssessive/abusive behaviours (that won't change, especially if enabled by tolerance in a marriage), or even "fit" issues, about how our internal paradigms line up with someone else and how much each is willing to change...or not (a personal decision for us all). MB can improve generic friction, disharmony, if both people are on the same page, and fit well enough, but cannot overcome other issues (and that is not what MB is about anyways).<p>I say your H is a player cause (far as I can see) he pretty much is focused on what he wants, needs, etc. and has little capacity beyond that. Where he fits on the scale of personality disorder who knows, not for me to say, but everything you have ever posted on him suggests the world revolves around him. The hope (and expectation we usually have) is ok, then just change...but problem is, most cannot, it is who they are....and they tend to marry people who tolerate (enable) them, make excuses for them, see their good points, shore them up, stay with out of committment, or guilt if we "abandon" them, etc. etc....if bad enough we call it abuse, less bad we call it co-dependentcy, but whatever we call it, it is not marriage, it is accomodation.... nor is it marital love (cause IMO love cannot exist under these circumstances, the capacity to make the committment love requires does not exist). <p>It would be much fairer if such folks married each other, but they don't they seek out someone to take care of them emotionally/psychologically, and we have the well documented rescuer syndrome, love/marriage based on giving ourselves to "make" someone else happy..... rescuers should only marry other rescuers, but I digress (that is an interesting philosophical contemplation re how people fit). Sometimes rescuing works, if the resucee has something to offer in return, and pulls their weight, but most often that does not happen, and the rescuer gets eaten alive (so to speak).... sometimes used up alltogether, than abandoned as the spouse seeks another to fill the role.<p>Again none of this means someone is evil, and there is an entire range of behaviour. Nor does it mean someone doesn't want it to work, or doesn't care about you....but all this makes no difference if the right actions are not there...marriage is not a "picture" or wishful thinking, it is a dynamic process, and if it doesn't work (for whatever reason) the natural consequence is it fails, and you lose your spouse, either through divorce, withrawal (married, but emotionally single), or extramarital relationships (be it romantic/affairs or simply extensive freindships and social interactions elsewhere). I suspect your mothers illness has emphasiszed your H inability to act in other than his own interest, he knows how wrong this is (he is intelligent, and we assume not a full blown sociopath incapable of understanding this), hence the anxiety attacks..... I suspect he would be very content to simply stay away alltogether from this if you let him (didn't ask for support), probably even do supportive stuff (like more domestic obligations so you could be away etc.), but not offer any emotional support by "being" your other half....By making this an issue, you have precipitated this crisis, hence his "words" and if you push hard enough probably some actions....but you are not blind, and you know this is not working the way it should, it is not what he is doing or not doing, but that can't do it in a way that makes you trust and feel safe he will be there when push comes to shove in your life...that is a fundamental problem, not just a current problem...this is the kind of stuff people go into denial over, shove way down deep, cause it doesn't get revealed very often, and you can pretend everything is really "ok".... <p>this is the stuff you see between the lines when people in "recovery" talk about how there lives are back together, but they slip in these little wistful, almost apologetic observations about how it just isn't quite right, and when will it be, and why doesn't s/he seem fully vested in all the deep emptional stuff, or is neglectful, or disrespectful, etc. etc..... I think many times recover is a convienience, the op didn't work out, one doesn't want to be separated from kids, financial/security issues, the natural aversion to change and turmoil (that is inherent in any divorce), a renegotiation of terms (spouse agrees to meet more needs to keep you), fear (no one will ever love me, I will be alone), guilt (what will people think of me)...all this generates some motivation, and oftentimes a honeymoon period (which lasts varying lengths of time from days, to year or two, then things gradually go back to where they were, or stabilize at a new, but sill undesireable level)...the reason being you cannot make trust happen, it is an inherent quality of how the two people fit each other (and that includes things like personality disorders), and it will be whatever it is, it can be less, and worked on, but it can never be more than who the two people are. I find it so strange (guess sort of a bs lingo, just like ws has lingo) that bs routinely say I don't like my spouse now, I like who they "were" or who they could potentially be. What does that mean? They are who they are, right now, and that they will never be anyone else....they may imporove, they may not, but everyday we are who we are...and what one needs to assess is the likelihood of change, (for good or bad, works both ways ya know), and the amount of change, and whether that is acceptable odds, and when to throw in the towel...why do people "fall in love" with who someone could be, instead of who they are? One word....denial. Heck we can all be "great" if we just change into whatever another one thinks great is, but how realistic is that?<p>Hbh, I know this is the stuff you have been assessing, going through, and my point here is to validate it, I think you are probably right on the money.... it is hard when you "love" a person (cause they are not bad, and you have vested resources in them), and have children with them, but come to realize they are never going to be someone you trust and are safe with in marital intimacy, (without making that a blame/judgement issues, just a reality issue), one comes to a moment of truth, you can make the marriage work by giving up all expectations of how it should work, and "choose" to do it for other reasons, and make whatever accomodations you can....or you face the prospect of adjusting the boundary with this person, putting divorce between you, releasing each from the stress/strain of intimacy, and becoming the special kind of friends ex-spouses/co-parents can be (assuming anything at all was working)...and if that isn't even possible....well then, one can only wonder how the marriage could ever have worked....and kinda validates in no uncertain terms it was not a safe place.<p>It sounds like that is where you are at, and the information you have presented since the beginning is consistent with the contemplation...why be married? Another thing about divorce is the rhetorical baggage, it is not a destruction of anything, nor is it really an end per se, all the same people, and history are still extant....what it is is a shift in boundaries, the shift is allready there emotionally, the "decree" is needed for legal resolution, and is a handy psychological focus....clearly the day after divorce people "feel" pretty much the same (maybe relief, maybe sadness etc., but still "feel" married). People even continue to interact as married if they choose... but now a boundary does exist, and one can start focusing elsewhere and see what happens...sometimes that generates a reevaluation of the marriage, sometimes that is enough "crisis" that people finally change, who knows what will happen...but it is just another step on the path of life.....one will continue to emotionally separate, and bond with another, or reconcille, either way it is nothing to fear, divorce is IMO a very good clarifyer of what exactly is the truth, and it removes a great deal of the power and manipulation that exists when you have someone "bound" to you.<p>The reason I told about my behaviour (as the ws) re w dad, is to illustrate that marital issues are marital issues, and not the same as people issues, my w needed support, I was happy to give it, even though there was still friction over it (her not wanting support if there is marital disharmony [and so tested me for sincerity], but in the end, she did want it), likewise some of her family are aware of our troubles, and it was uncomfortable for me in that sense, but my discomfort was unimportant, this wasn't about me, it was about her...that is how "normal" people are supposed to make these kinds of choices...it confused her cause she thinks I only think about me, and she knows I generally don't do anything just to do it (fake it), so she had to deal with maybe I am not so selfish as she thinks, and the issues I have are real... (but I digress)...the point is your H inability to behave "normally" is just another red flag about his capacity to be a marital partner....and yes one can analyze till the cows come home why, and delve into his childhood, and his issues, and all that...but ya know what, it is pretty much irrelevant to the marriage, you can either live like this or not, or wait a lifetime for change that may never come (and in a vexing way, the waiting enables the dysfunction, and reduces the likelihood of change cause there is no natural consequence..divorce....). I guess that is why there are stages, and why plan a and b work, they keep the process going, from getting stuck, and if the b separation goes nowhere, I guess people finally detach enough to divorce.<p>This is kinda long, and I elaborated some cause I try to speak more generally (for others benefits too), and avoid misunderstanding...I hope I haven't been insensitive to the distress you are under, and that you find this useful, if not, tell me and I will delete it, or make it not about you and move it elsewhere. Bottom line is your anger and hurt are understandable, and a realistic response...later (hopefully after a miraculous recovery) when the crisis is in the past, and H no longer is being stressed, I don't think you should overlook/dismiss what you are learning about him now....especially as he explains it all away with a bunch of words, and empty promises....chances are the next time push comes to shove he will act the same, and do what he wants/needs... that is why they say current behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. Good luck with everything...<p>btw, it might be possible, if you act quickly to get a court to appoint power of attorney, especially to a spouse when other is unable to function, and if no one objects in court, better yet people verify this was what was in the works...then you can maybe get everything in order before it is too late....worth a try anyways.

Hurtbyhubby - things are really tough for you. Yes, my dad was quite ill and just passed away Jan.2. My parents did the right thing of getting power of attorney just this past October. They both knew things didn't look that good, and actually dad was the one who asked to have this happen. As far as getting power of attorney now - I don't know! Sorry! <p>Your parents didn't know the outcome of surgery was going to be this devastating. No insurance, makes things really difficult. But if it is the fault of the hospital, everything should be paid for and you should possibly try to attain an attorney. <p>Do not look at divorce right now. You are under so much stress, your body takes a dive in being able to feel anything. I know, that is how it felt to me, my mother said the same thing, you become numb. Your body shakes, breathing is difficult, etc. Give your H caring, etc. Just ask him to hold you.<p>I know about panic attacks. I got them so bad that I was unable to drive on the expressway. I was unable to sleep, because in the middle of a rheem sleep, the palpitations would start, and the shaking would come on. My H tried to help in the beginning, I didn't know what was going on. Then later he basically told me it was all in my head. I joined a panic attack group session at a major teaching hospital. They really helped me, they were my support group, and it helped. I still have panic attacks, deal with them myself, but I have called my mom to talk while I am going through an attack. She knows I have them, and is willing to talk to me. I didn't bother her during my fathers illness and after his death. Just was solo at that time. But just recently I talked to her and just listening to someone helps. Panic attacks are for real, believe him when he has them, but he needs some help. There are things you can do to help yourself. Find him a group session to go to. At the hospital your mom is at, just ask there. <p>A panic attack puts such severe stress on a human. Your emotions are not stable, you can't think clearly, you are not who you are. Panic attacks cause a real disturbance in your mind, you actually think you are dieing. Outside stress causes PANIC ATTACKS! <p>(((((HUGS))))) to you, this is so difficult, and I would seek an attorney to discuss the event of your mothers situation. Forget everything else, your mom and your dad are going through a very difficult time, seems they have no insurance (is that true?). Why is your dad with you, living with you? HBH - take things slow right now, you are stressed out to the max. Your H can be the one you married, he needs help of his own. I know, my H could be the guy I married too. Prayers are with you. I will keep reading to see what is happening.

(((((HbH)))))