Maybe I jumped the gun with this question, I don't know. I've seen several references to "protect the WS from your (BS) anger". I even saw Dr. Harley use the statement that his wife gets angry with him but she needs to protect him from her 'abusive' anger(abusive actions).<p>To me, this is in direct conflict with brutal honesty. If you are angry, shouldn't the other person know it? I'm not saying you have to go into a rant and slap them down or call them degrading names or threaten them or anything like that. But what's wrong with being angry.....even really angry and letting your spouse know it?<p>I know if I do something and my H gets upset....I WANT to know about it. I don't want him stewing in his anger and holding it inside....to me that's a time-bomb waiting to happen. I would rather him be up-front and honest about it so that we can deal with the situation "as is" and not end up with a spontaneous combustion situation sometime in the future. I don't consider him showing me his anger *abusive*.<p>Doesn't anger have it's place just as joy does? I mean, isn't it just as natural? How can you effectively deal with a situation if you aren't dealing with the whole situation?<p>I understand that there are times when you should show the anger and there are times when you shouldn't. I understand that if you are right in the middle of discovery or trying to Plan A that you are trying to show your spouse your best side. But, I'm not sure exactly how long Dr. Harley has been married......and he still finds his wife showing him her anger "abusive"...abusive actions????<p>As I said before, maybe I missed something. Can someone(s) please enlighten me?<p>selket<p>[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

Hey Selket: I'm not quite sure what specifically MB's take is on your question, but this is my take. I think what is meant here is that you need to protect the WS from angry outbursts that will cause them to draw back. Just as the BS would draw back from rebuilding if they felt attacked so to say. Sure, being angry is ok and normal and should be known and shared, but constructively; I think they are cautioning agaist destructive sharing of anger. What I mean by constructively is to talk about it. To say something like, that makes me angre, or I'm rather upset and/or angry about such and such, and it might be better if we talked about it more later. You are acknowledging your anger as well as asking your spouse to do so, while making the conscious decision to hold off on really talking until a bit later time when it can be more productive.<p>Again, this is just my thoughts. Hope it helps. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

one does not choose to be angry, it is a normal response to life stimuli....it is what you do with it that is the issue. First working on you, is the anger (and intensity) appropriate for who you are, if not, what kind of modifications can you do so such anger is not triggered....if it is justified anger, than the next step is what to do with it....stuffing it is NOT the answer, taking action is, and generally speaking communicating that anger in an appropriate way is the way to proceed, followed up by appropriate resolutions. If one cannot express anger, (or is angry all the time with good reason) in a marriage, the marriage needs to end, it is an unhealthy place, and one does not have to live that way, that is the solution, and the reason for the anger.... but before one gets to that understanding one does all the other work first re anger, and issues, and so forth and so on....but this should be productive work, moving towards an acceptable outcome, not learning to stuff. The first lesson is the appropriate means of expressing anger, and usually (but not always, sometimes is ok) angry outbursts are not the way to go. MB goes on to say the recipient gets to define what is an angry ourburst, disrespectful judgement, selfish demand...but that is not an absolute, the presupposes some standard of reasonableness...yes something you might accept, another might feel threatened by, but eventually it becomes a control mechanism and stifles communcation. One does not have an unlimited license to claim something your partner does is not protecting you, even if true, then you have a problem, and they will protect you the ultimate way, by leaveing you alltogether so as not to "hurt" you...ya know.

Well, there's a similar thread going about the BS's being too nice. I'll have to go home tonite and re-read the chapter in "Love-Busters" about Angry Outbursts. I think generally, anger is a natural, and NOT an un-healthy emotion, if managed and displayed properly. Being "abusive" is harming the other person - physically or emotionally. I think there's ways to be angry - and to communicate that anger - without harming people or destroying property.<p>Maybe someone can address the fact that Jesus displayed anger, which to me.... indicates that anger is ok. I don't believe he hurt anyone, but certainly got across an important message. And he wasn't being selfish - he wasn't "fighting for his rights" or anything.<p>I'm currently reading "Dance with Anger" (upon Cali's recommendation [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ), and I haven't read enough to really explain much, but there's 2 kinds of unhealthy anger-management: stuffing it, and throwing temper-tantrums.<p>oh well.... there's my 1 and 1/2 cents' worth. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I agree...I think Harley is talking more about how the anger is expressed. It's fine and natural to talk about issues that bother or upset us, but we all deserve, as free-minded adults, to be treated with respect...none of us deserve violence, angry outbursts, or disrespect.

Well, for what it's worth, yes, I showed my anger.<p>I cried, harder than I had ever cried in my life. I yelled, I asked him how he could do this. I threw a glass against the wall. And yes, I slapped him. He told me to stop at that point and I knew he was right and I stopped. Am I sorry, No.<p>He needed to see the pain he had inflicted on me. He knows that I have never before acted or reacted in such a way. I have aplogised for some of the hurtfull and cruel things I have said, told him that they were said out of anger and that I was sorry for saying them but that I would not apologise for the anger I felt.<p>In Torn Assunder by Dave Carder, he says that it is important for the WS to see the level of hurt and pain they have caused the BS. I think that this is true. That hurt and pain needs to be shown, but it cannot be an ongoing thing. I have now moved past the angry stage and am able to deal with my WH clamly and with a level head, even when something hurtfull comes up. I was not in Plan A at that point. I was not in a plan, I did not know if I wanted my marriage at that point.<p>I am not saying that it's OK to be physical with the WS, it's not, I should not have hit him, but I have never apologised for doing it and I never will. Unfortunatly there is a double standard here and it's really just based on natural strength, if I had been the WS and my H had slapped me I would have left. (Of course I said the same about "if he ever cheated on me") For some reason it's never OK for a man to hit a woman, but my H understood why I slapped him and knew just how hurt betrayed and angry I must have been to do it. Now don't mistake me, I did not beat on my husband, try to hit him with a bat, or as he was so afraid of at the time, try to cut anything off in his sleep. I slapped him, he saw it coming and told me not to do it again. He is more than capable of stopping me.<p>So yes, I think that it's OK and natural to show your anger, initially, after discovery. Come on, we are all human and this is the worst betrayel we have ever felt. None of us are superhuman and I think always swallowing this kind of hurt and anger is unhealthy. But, we do have to let that anger go is we want to have a chance to rebuild our marriages. If we do not let it go then we might as well just leave because there is no more marriage to build. I know I don't want to be angry like that all the time, and why would my H want to be married to someone who was. <p>Be angry, aknowledge it, move past it.<p>Needing

I agree with needing, I think sometimes physical communication of anger is appropriate, it tells you things, but making it normal means of dealing with anger is not good.... I wouldn't even be sorry needing, your hitting him made perfect sense under the circumstances and communicated what he needed to know....now hitting him with a bb bat, and sending him to the hospital would not be ok..... humans have 2 kinds of violence, one is ritualized and is an integral part of human communication...the other is about intimidation and control and is not ok. A woman slapping a man is a deeply ingrained ritual violence, and is perfectly ok...... plus it has a natural check and balance, if it is not justified the man can (and might) knock her on her [censored], end of story.<p>Actually the whole field of human communuication is fascinating, we use much much more than words, including action....and violence, is essentially tactile communication, no different than hugging and stroking, they all convey things...if we were telepaths we would not need all these mechanisms, but as we strive for perfect understanding of each other, ritualize violence will remanin an integral part of the process.... (and is why guys regularly pound on each other, it is just our way of talking sometimes).

Just an added thought, I said that it would not have been OK for my H to slap me if I had been the WS, however, if he had shown his anger in another way, say punching the wall, I would have understood it. Maybe I only say that because I now know how bad the hurt is. This goes along with what SNL said, it's a ritual. <p>But, please understand, in my mind, this is not an acceptable way to live or continue to express anger. We have to find a way to discuss it rationally and without the angry outbursts and disrespectfull judgments. This I have done. I now protect my H from my anger and am providing him with a safe environment. I love this man and never stopped. I want him to be happy to come home at night. I want him to pull into our garage and say, Thank God I'm home and my family is in there waiting for me with open loving arms. We are a long way from this. But I am working on it as hard as I can. No more anger from me. I am just saying that after initial discovery it has it's place. <p>Oh well, guess I'm on a roll today.<p>Needing

{{{CLINK}}}Throwing my two pennies in the pot.<p>It's okay to be angry/upset but the way it's expressed makes all the difference. The first 15 mos I was married to my husband, when he was angry he threw the worst, destructive tantrums you can imagine. Holes in the wall. He threw our 4thof July dinner (dishes and all) into the kitchen floor, broken glass, baked beans everywhere--Dr. Pepper on the ceiling. Took me 6 hours on my knees to clean it up.<p>He said cruel things--One night with his ONS was better than a year with me. Other really, really nasty things. Put his foot thru my car window because I wouldn't let him drive drunk to buy cigarettes at 4am. This is abusive anger. Thank God those days are over. He still has a temper but he tries to talk with me calmly and if not calmly, at least not in a physically threatening way.<p>Anger is a natural emotion, healthy and normal. Destruction is abusive and threatening and unhealthy.

This is all very interesting!!!<p>I've been on my own journey through trying to understand anger also. I have been labelled an 'angry, bitter person' by more than one person, including 2 pastors. I have gone to 2 anger management courses, and several other anger related groups, and many books. The book that has helped me is "The other side of anger" by Gary Chapman. <p>Inproper venting (hitting, throwing things, degrading names, yelling at others) is totally inappropriate. It is really hard to get beneath the anger and figure out what trigger has caused all this anger. Anger is an emotion that is not a conscious choice. Same as love. The way we deal with this emotion is very important.<p>Talking about your feelings from an "I" statement, and keeping the "you" out of the statements is a start. <p>Own your anger.....don't say 'you make me angry'. Instead, "I'm feeling angry because...."<p>All of these seem so easy when typing them, but I know firsthand that this is not easy to put into practise, especially when there are unresolved issues/conflicts.<p>Get an accountability partner, daily, to check up on you and see how you are coping.<p>Good luck on your journey through anger......and I'm listening to my own statments here also!!!!<p>And remember to BREATH. We tend to stop breathing, or go into hyperventilation when angry.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

In my case and in my examples I don't think it's hard to figure out what the trigger was. I just found out my H had been having sex with another woman. That was my trigger.<p>As I have said, this is not a way to live. But I believe we have a right to be angry about our spouses affairs. And yes I agree, we have to learn how to deal with that anger in an adult, rational, non violent way. <p>If violent outbursts are a persons normal way of dealing with every day life stresses than something is wrong. If someone is continually verbally and/or physically abusive than their spouse needs to remove themselves from the home, for their own saftey, doesn't matter if they are WS or BS.

Sel,
I think the worst thing anyone can do in a relationship is hold feelings in, whether warm and fuzzy ones OR angry not so good ones. What is one of the biggest contributors to a failed marraige? A LACK OF COMMUNICATION. Expressing your anger is NOT abusive when communicated in the proper way (no name calling, no keeping score, no throwing things, etc etc blah blah blah).<p>How in the world would anyone know what angered his/her spouse if he/she never told that spouse?