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#985106 03/13/02 06:05 PM
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I thought I would post a new string as your string was getting long..... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My H will be home in 3 hours. I have not been to work all week. I am sick to my stomach. Part of me wants to welcome him home, but the other part wants to throw up. <p>I feel sex is the "main" reason why he stays in this marriage. It is the factor of the marriage continueing or dieing. He told me that if he does not get it 4 times a week as well as 8 other contacts per day... that is he is simply out of here. Every day stresses sometimes dictate your mood when you crawl into bed. <p>I have always looked at the act as being something very spiritual. I cannot perform if my mind is on other things, mostly negative thoughts. He tends to think that sex is the most important way to connect. Not talking, not holding each other, not laughing with each other. <p>I have told him that he has not done what I have done. He has merely met his needs, solely to benefit only himself. He did not give anything; he took. And he thinks that is OK. One other poster said that I should be lucky that presents can't arrive (that happened with me), , no midnight phone calls and hang ups, he never knew her last name, phone number so the affair is over. But that is not what this gross feeling in me is about. It is about the selfishness behind it and how I see his affair representing what he NEEDS. And my affair representing what I NEED. Is that a fair judgement? So saying that, my question is....does it really matter to him who he is getting if from? I feel like if I sleep with him, I will see him getting what he wants and not sharing anything else.... just the way it used to be. Sex.... or it's over. So, now I deal with accepting him back into my life and I am really scared. Scared that I am making excuses for his behaviour. I know I did wrong (Aug 01) and by Dec 01, I wanted him back. I was out of the fog. He has been waffling, saying 80% wants to come back -- 20% still is hurt and does not know if I will meet his needs (SEX). I have done everything but beg him to come back.
When my H found out about my A, he said everything that you could say to rip someone's heart out. One of the strongest statements that he asked was "How it felt to have another D*** inside my C***. Not only did that offend me, but that is not the way it was. I bit my tongue and allowed him to vent even though it hurt. When he told me about his A, I thanked him for telling me. I told him that I would not crusify (sp) him with words. The conversation ended quickly after he let me know that "it" felt good, and they both achieved orgasms. He gloated about it and said the reason why he did it was to see if he did the same thing, then he would think less of the pain I caused him. He said he would have some thing to feel guilty about and we would be even. I was shocked at that. The next morning he called me and said that he was sick to his stomach and does not know why he thought that would make him feel better. He says he feels like awful. I was quick to tell him that he must not have felt what I have been feeling for 7 months.. losing 22 pounds... he must not have heard what I told him about how bad I felt.... how much pain that I have caused him. So now, what do I do? What is a safe approach to do to buy me some time to get my head around this?

#985107 03/13/02 10:35 PM
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Are you finding my comments helpful? I do think MB has a lot of good too offer, but I am a lot more radical on what marriage material is (and is not), and what marriage depends on. EN's are second on my list, first is how well you fit, something MB does not consider...so keep that in mind. I am more interested in what is emotionally healthy for people, than in simply preserving a marriage just cause it exists...I think it makes a difference how you fit, a huge difference....and I do not think just anyone can meet needs by simply following a rote plan. I know for me, I am very very choosey about who I will let meet my EN's...<p>bm...My H will be home in 3 hours. I have not been to work all week. I am sick to my stomach. Part of me wants to welcome him home, but the other part wants to throw up.<p>snl...well, I guess that is where we all get when our minds and emotions are at serious odds....IMO both must be in harmony to be in-love, and our emotions are usually where the truth is found, cause they are not subject to denial, and other tricks we play on ourselves with out minds. (but emotions can get mistaken too, so one does have to consider that). <p>bm....I feel sex is the "main" reason why he stays in this marriage. It is the factor of the marriage continueing or dieing. <p>snl...If that is true then leave, that is not a marriage it is voluntary slavery.<p>bm...He told me that if he does not get it 4 times a week as well as 8 other contacts per day... that is he is simply out of here. Every day stresses sometimes dictate your mood when you crawl into bed. <p>snl...If that is true, then kudos for his honesty, the question is why haven't you said adios? I personally would make no effort to remain married to someone under those conditions, nor would I meet that need, if they don't like it, then come to counselling or leave, you (no one) is someones sexual property, and no one owes anyone sex, it is freely given, or it doesn't happen. The mere hint of sexual ultimatums makes my skin crawl, one can discuss it, but to demand it or else, then the or else is infinitely more preferable.<p>bm...I have always looked at the act as being something very spiritual. <p>snl...me too, cause that is exactly what it is.<p>bm....I cannot perform if my mind is on other things, mostly negative thoughts. <p>snl...I think not performing is simply an outcome of not being connected or in-love. I think it is God's way of letting us know when something is terribly wrong with the sexuality, that being we are not connected right, quite possibly with the wrong person.<p>bm...He tends to think that sex is the most important way to connect. Not talking, not holding each other, not laughing with each other.<p>snl...Well, you know him best...this is not teribly unusual for some men, I think it is sad, and I don't think they are marriage material, they just want a live in prostitute...sorry for being so blunt, but what else is it...I will feed/clothe/house you for sex on demand... but don't expect me to meet any other needs you might have.<p>bm...I have told him that he has not done what I have done. He has merely met his needs, solely to benefit only himself. He did not give anything; he took. And he thinks that is OK. <p>snl...BM, he is telling you over and over you donm't count, are not important, nothing to question here, he has made his position clear.<p>bm...One other poster said that I should be lucky that presents can't arrive (that happened with me), , no midnight phone calls and hang ups, he never knew her last name, phone number so the affair is over. <p>snl...Lucky? You should consider yourself lucky he only broke your jaw, I mean he could killed you instead...sheesh....where does this logic come from sometimes.<p>bm...But that is not what this gross feeling in me is about. It is about the selfishness behind it and how I see his affair representing what he NEEDS. And my affair representing what I NEED. Is that a fair judgement?<p>snl...Fair? I suppose, most affairs are indeed about what the ws needs in one sense or another. But I think he needs a lot more than sex, he needs power over you.<p>bm...So saying that, my question is....does it really matter to him who he is getting if from? <p>snl..probably not.<p>bm...I feel like if I sleep with him, I will see him getting what he wants and not sharing anything else.... just the way it used to be. Sex.... or it's over. So, now I deal with accepting him back into my life and I am really scared. <p>snl...Why are you accepting him back? Because you don't think you can do better? Judgeing from what you have presented, it would not be difficult to find a much more caring man. Guilt? You owe him nothing. Because you love him? Why, according to MB you only are in-love when your needs are being met, have yours ever been met....probably not, so you do not love him, you are dependant on him for your self-validation most likely.<p>bm...Scared that I am making excuses for his behaviour. I know I did wrong (Aug 01) and by Dec 01, I wanted him back. I was out of the fog. He has been waffling, saying 80% wants to come back -- 20% still is hurt and does not know if I will meet his needs (SEX). I have done everything but beg him to come back.<p>snl...This comes up a lot, and I personally don't understand it. People wanting a clearly dysfunctional spouse back, one that doesn't meet their needs, because they supposedly love em...I don't beleive it...I think people go into denial, and try hard to have the picture, the image, and simply do not realize that is not love at all.

bm...When my H found out about my A, he said everything that you could say to rip someone's heart out. One of the strongest statements that he asked was "How it felt to have another D*** inside my C***. <p>snl...Ok, one slight support for the bs here. Initially in discovery people go crazy it seems (ws and bs)...lots of very hurtful things get said...hopefully apologized for later. But if the behaviour persists, then you get out, no one is allowed to get away with abuse, verbal or otherwise....If he stopped that behaviour, and apologized for it, then perhaps give the benefit of the doubt, and reserve judgement till you see how it goes.<p>bm...Not only did that offend me, but that is not the way it was. I bit my tongue and allowed him to vent even though it hurt. <p>snl...I know, the bs have an overwhelming need to trash the affair, and the op...it is survival, the unthinkable is the op is a decent human being, fits you well, and you would be happier married to them...that is essentially impossible for a bs to consider, but it does scare the crap out of em (and for obvious reasons) so they do their best to trash everything associated with the affair.<p>bm...When he told me about his A, I thanked him for telling me. I told him that I would not crusify (sp) him with words. <p>snl..That was nice, but in fairness a ws knows how it goes, they should be more understanding.<p>bm....The conversation ended quickly after he let me know that "it" felt good, and they both achieved orgasms. He gloated about it and said the reason why he did it was to see if he did the same thing, then he would think less of the pain I caused him. <p>snl...This is bullcrap...he did it to intimidate you, and his response was abusive as well...<p>bm....He said he would have some thing to feel guilty about and we would be even. I was shocked at that. The next morning he called me and said that he was sick to his stomach and does not know why he thought that would make him feel better. He says he feels like awful. I was quick to tell him that he must not have felt what I have been feeling for 7 months.. losing 22 pounds... he must not have heard what I told him about how bad I felt.... how much pain that I have caused him. So now, what do I do? What is a safe approach to do to buy me some time to get my head around this? <p>snl...classic abuse, hurt you, then makeup and play nice, until the next cycle...don't get sucked into it bm....look at his overall patterns of behaviour in the marriage and take appropriate action...it sounds like your affair was an escape affair, if so, use that understanding (that you are a worthwhile desireable human being for things other than sex, and set boundaries, which if not met you leave, hopefully the om was not a predator and despite the kneejerk morality arguments re affairs, did care about you and give you validation).

#985108 03/14/02 09:49 AM
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I'm sorry to butt in on your posting but I read some of your posts to Sad and lonely on the post he started. He responded with his thoughts in regards to revenge affairs. This really struck a cord with me. You see, in my first marriage upon finding out about my affair my ex immediately had a revenge affair. My ex didn't care why I had the affair and he didn't want to know what was wrong in our marriage. He was a victim and I was evil. He felt (and voiced it often) that he was the "perfect" husband and father and our marriage was in shambles strictly because of me. To him I deserved every bit he was going to dish out. He didn't stop with the revenage affair either but I don't want to go into that now. There are many men out there that do care enough to find out what caused the affair and many men that can forgive and work on their marriage. There are some that just can not get past it. They either divorce or they keep you in the marriage and punish you forever. My affair caused me to see an entirely different side to my ex. That side (in my opinion) was so vandictive and cruel that not only could I not stay married to him but I fought the urge to live life hating him. Obviously because I refer to him as my "ex" we divorced and in all honestly I don't regret our divorce one bit. I could have never stayed in that marriage because he would have hated me and made me pay for my affair until the day I died. His reaction to my affair also made it impossible for him to ever be a man that I could like, let alone love. What your husband did and what he is still doing show's a man with similar traits of my ex.

#985109 03/14/02 11:50 AM
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>
bm...He tends to think that sex is the most important way to connect. Not talking, not holding each other, not laughing with each other.<p>snl...Well, you know him best...this is not teribly unusual for some men, I think it is sad, and I don't think they are marriage material, they just want a live in prostitute...sorry for being so blunt, but what else is it...I will feed/clothe/house you for sex on demand... but don't expect me to meet any other needs you might have.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry to jump in on this thread, but this struck a chord in me. I think that it is generally accepted that men and women connect differently. BM, like most women, connect with the talking, holding of each other, primarily affection. While her husband, like most men, connect sexually. I think the thing that struck the chord in me was SNL's response to BM's comment. While I agree that most men connect sexually, that doesn't mean that we do not also find enjoyment in talking or holding each other. I have a problem with the statement that men who "primarily" connect with their wives sexually as being less then marriage material, or simply view their wives as prostitutes. Men and women are "wired" differently, I believe that this is also "common" knowledge, and I think that it is disingenuous to give BM the impression that her husband's idea that for him the most important way to connect is sexually, is somehow wrong. <p>BM, for most men, the primary or most important way of connecting with their wives is through sex. But with that being said, I understand that for you, the connection comes through communication and affection. Instead of viewing your husband as some time of "john", there needs to be an increase in the meeting of each other's needs. Your husband needs to communicate with you more and show you more affection in order for you to connect, while at the same time, you need to show your love for him sexually in order for him to feel a connection with you. <p>Before learning that men and women are simply wired differently, I think the mistake both men and women make is that they think that the way that they connect is the the same way in which their spouses connect, and when they don't see their spouses doing the things that they would do, they tend to feel that their spouse no longer loves them. Don't fall into that trap. Talk to your husband, let him know that you understand that he connects with you sexually, and that you want to be there for him to meet this need, but that you connect in a different way, and that you need him there for you to meet your need. <p>Viewing him as someone that thinks of you as a prostitute is not the answer.

#985110 03/14/02 01:10 PM
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fa, the response was re the facts presented, her H has apparently been approached to meet her needs and rejects them, saying he is doing enough, hence my use of the prostitute analogy, any man who only wants a wife for sex, and just houses/feeds/clothes her is using her...making her a de facto prostitute, and it is uselful to realize that as you try to break the programming that keeps you married to an unhealthy mate. It is her decision, just that there is so much pressure to make marriage work, that those who would be better off leaveing do not get proper support, I try to be more balanced, divorce is not a death, can be easily remedied if people want too, but an unhealthy marriage can be a lifetime of slow death, and people just stay in it cause they are expected too. The thing here is her H has refused to meet her needs. What do you do with that?<p>As for "most" men equate sex and love....I disagree, and think it is a snow job to excuse men from maturing into nurturing partners, letting them coast along. I am a man, I like sex, means nothing to me by itself, and has nothing to do with love in my world....connecting emotionally, intellectually, psychologically is everything to me....honesty and openess my biggest EN...etc. etc. and I am not the only one, there are many men like me....so instead of telling women they have to accept some guy who is motivated by sex, and just figure he is never going to richly meet their need for other connections is not helpful. Why not tell them instead, now you understand how this works, divorce, and make yourself available to someone who is already like that? The part of MB I have the most trouble with is that this stuff only works with the partner you have, what if you asses that partner (for whatever reason, not a value jusgement) is only going to be able to meet your needs so so, and cannot even be trusted to do that over time (as opposed to doing it in the short term to keep you there)...these are real concerns FA, this does happen, people do live very unsatisfying married lives, after doing everything they can. So if someone is married to a guy for who sex is pretty much his top 3 needs (which really disturbs me to even think about actually).... why shouldn't a woman say, ya know, I really don't want a H for whom sex is that important, and ya know what, all men are not like that....so I will part as amicably as possible and find somone whose top needs are more similar to mine. Women need to know, all men are not sexually oriented, lots of em are capable and desirous of great conversation, affection, and deep emotional bonding..... likewise there are women for who sex is a top need too, they should marry men who feel the same it seems. That people have different priorities re needs is fine, I get that.... and when we talk about meeting your spouses needs is important for them to feel loved, I get that too....but when we are told it is ok to have substantially different needs/life agendas, etc. just make yourself accomodate (and they you)....I don't get it. It makes much more sense to divorce and marry someone whose needs are similar to yours, instead of stressing each other trying to make yourself like meeting needs that aren't important to you.<p>What if a guy just flat out does not want to have a lot of meaningful conversation with women, now he has to make himself be good at this? Why? It is not a character defect, it is not something that needs to be fixed, he just has to do it to make his w happy, it is a chore, and a contrivance, and he must be stressed like this a lifetime for what reason? The notion of not wanting to meet a spouses needs is not discussed enough here, it is just a given you will do it, or you are some evil, uncaring person...whatever happened to self-determination, and living your life the way you want?<p>If BM H, just wants sex, and domestic support etc. let him marry someone else, why should BM beat her brains out doing something she does not want to (at least with this guy) in hopes he will throw her a few grudging bones for her needs...when do ya give up, and realize your marriage is not going to be what you want/need it to be, and everyone go their amicable ways, and marry someone they fit better.

#985111 03/14/02 03:54 PM
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>....I am a man, I like sex, means nothing to me by itself, and has nothing to do with love in my world....connecting emotionally, intellectually, psychologically is everything to me....honesty and openess my biggest EN...etc. etc. and I am not the only one, there are many men like me....so instead of telling women they have to accept some guy who is motivated by sex, and just figure he is never going to richly meet their need for other connections is not helpful.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Look closely at what I wrote, I never said that a husband should not meet the needs of his wife, or that a wife should accept a husband that is only motivated by sex and does not care to meet her needs. I too have a problem with men such as that. But I do believe that sex is how "most" men connect with their partners, it's by no means the only way, but it is #1 on the EN list of "most" men. What I meant to get across is that for the most part, and yes there are exceptions, men and women are wired differently. That doesn't make one right or wrong, but different. Ideally, the husband and the wife recognize this and act accordingly, each meeting the needs of the other. If BM's husband is not the type of man that is willing to even try to meet the needs of of BM, then I agree with you in that she needs to remove herself from this marriage, my only issue was if BM had approached her husband in the spirit that men and women are wired differently, and that their top emotional needs may not be the same, and if BOTH of them were willing to negotiate with the meeting of each others needs.


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