Today for the 3rd time in 2 months I found out WS is still in contact with OW, After 2 months of trying to make deposits and elimate LB"s, today was the straw that broke the camels back. I called OW threatend her, called CEO and VP's of company, and damaged WS laptop. WS will probably loose his job, and I am glad. I know this was not good, but how much of this crap do I have to take? If it werent for my children, I would be gone, and so would he. WS says he wants to work it out for our kids, that it is over, but how many times do I have to play the fool? I love my children and do want to work it out, but I can not let him walk on me. Any advice?

I am sorry for your pain. It is so hard to go through. I don't blame you for your feelings. It is so hard to go through. Sorry I don't have any great advice for you, but I just wanted you to know that my thoughts and prayers are with you.
Hang in there.
BH

I'm in the same boat. If there were no children from this M, I would have been a free single woman by now. But because there are children involved, I have to satisfy my conscience in regard to them before I can feel free to leave the M.<p>What's done is done. At this point, you need to regroup and reevaluate your Plan A and decide what you're going to do now with things as they are now.<p>What helped me when there was D-day after D-day was to just let go of it, that if he was going to continue, he was going to continue, but I knew what he didn't--that the clock was ticking and he'd only be able to do what he was doing for so long because I knew the Plan B train was coming, and eventually the rug would be pulled out from under his selfish cake eating.<p>When I absolutely could not stand him for what he was doing, I would look at everything I was doing that H benefitted from as far as Plan A was concerned in a different light. Instead of dwelling on how he was getting all this nice, totally undeserved treatment from me, I would focus on all the great skills I was developing and what a great wife I will be for my NEXT husband.<p>When I would do things that were directly meeting his ENs, I would be able to do them because *I* knew I was REALLY doing them for his REPLACEMENT and he didn't know that. It helped me to finally be the one in the know about what was really going on for a change. I looked at him as a guinea pig or a training dummy (like for CPR), as a tool I needed for what I was doing for myself and my future.<p>Now, obviously this is not a very NICE way to look at your H, but what they are DOING isn't nice. Even if my thoughts weren't very nice, at least everything I was DOING in regard to my H was nice and kind, and I figured whatever enabled me to get through it was what I needed to do.<p>I've almost reached the recommended 6-month Plan A, so I've satisfied my conscience that I've done what the experts advise, so I'm glad I dug in and did it. Whatever happens from here on, I will be able to look into my children's faces knowing I did everything I could to keep their world intact.<p>And as it happens, my H no longer works with OW, and I'm pretty certain there's been no contact for at least 2 months. Also, he's been treating me with respect for the past 3 months, the longest period of time ever in the M. And he is being affectionate and enjoyable to be around.<p>So for now, I am content to stay to see what else may develop and am in no hurry to go to Plan B yet. Never thought that would happen when I was back where you are on the timeline. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I know it feels terribly unfair and doormat-y at times, but it really is true that Plan A is not for the WS. Plan A is for you. I left my first M without this process, and I ended up going through a lot of stuff that I wish I hadn't. I was like a spring under a thumb, and when the thumb (my H) was removed, I was bouncing all over the place, having no idea who I was or what happened--kind of emotional chaos.<p>Plan A and Plan B enable you to remain grounded and centered, and give you a path to exit the M safely and sanely, even though it may not feel that way to you now.<p>Because of my past experience with a failed M, I can really see how following Plan A/Plan B back then would have put me in a much better position to make decisions about my and my children's lives, process the M and put it to rest, be able to navigate the dating world safely, and ultimately be better prepared for my next M and make a better choice of partner.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by oreochichi:
<strong>If it werent for my children, I would be gone, and so would he.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Kids are never a reason to stay. They pick up on the bad vibes no matter how hard you try to hide them. If you kids are the ONLY reason you are staying, you need to rethink your decision. You have much anger and I understand why but perhaps counseling would help you to better deal with your issues in the marriage.<p>Peace,
J

I agree with J-C. My children are why I did not walk out on D-Day., but they've only been part of the reason that we've decided to hold our marriage together. There were much deeper reasons like our love for each other - for starters. Children can be a powerful motivating force, but they can't be the only reason for holding it together. What good does it do them to see Mama hurt and crying all of the time? What good does it do them to see hate, or tears, or fear, or anger etc. all of the time? They need to be taught that certain behaviors are untolerable just as they need to be taught that certain behaviors are good. Fortunately my children are young enough that they may never know about the OW, the A, or anything else. Hopefully we've straightened things out to the point that it won't happen again. If it does, they will be older, and will probably understand. If that's the case, I'll probably feel FORCED to leave in order to teach them that their father's actions are NOT RIGHT. I do not want them to grow up and be in an unfaithful marriage, expect unfaithfulness from a husband, just because they saw their mother put up with it from their father. THEY DESERVE BETTER!

So he loses his job. Nobody will die. Everyone hits a breaking point, and you hit yours. There was no physical violence, and you didn't shoot anyone. Promise to try to keep your emotions in check and get on with life.<p>I'd rethink the saving the marriage for the kids thing though. They would rather have a happy life than married parents.<p>Elizabeth

The research is very clear on this: Having married parents, an intact family, is a crucial factor for a happy life for children.<p>A marriage has to be severely pathological before the scales tip to make divorce the better alternative as far as a child's development goes. Most "unhappy" marriages do not fall into this category.<p>As long as you are able to function adequately as a parent, staying in the marriage "for the kids" is a reasonable choice and is especially so from the perspective of what is in the best interest of the children.<p>[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I humbly disagree Conqueror. Ask any child that grew up in a home where the parents barely tolerated each other and you'll hear the same response each and every time. The kids always know something is wrong. I, for one, do not want my children growing up with this hollow core that we call a marriage as their example for life. It's NOT always best for the children for parents to stay together.

I AM one of those children. My parents fought constantly, and I still wish they hadn't gotten a divorce. The research shows that I am in the majority. And at least one of our parents, after witnessing the effects of the divorce on our lives, deeply regrets it, and the grieving and guilt he has endured because of his responsibility in initiating and pursuing a course of action that led to so much trauma in our lives is why he supports me in staying, EVEN if only for the children's sake.<p>He can hardly bear what I am going through because he knows how painful it is and feels responsible for it because of the choices he made, but he is hoping I will avoid the further grief and heartache that the path he chose holds. And my mother is a person I do not want to end up being.<p>I have lived my entire life with the fallout from 4 (count them !4!) generations of divorce, and I have also had to endure what my father has as far as witnessing the effects on my own children, having chosen to divorce my first husband, which sent my children's lives into chaos. Well, it could be argued that my ex-H sent all of our lives into chaos first, but the divorce did not improve anything from my children's point of view.<p>One factor you cannot predict is how your spouse will behave when they become an EX-spouse. It is not at all unusual for the behavior you thought you couldn't tolerate that led to the divorce to escalate beyond your wildest imagination and TOTALLY OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, and this person is STILL your children's parent and always will be, so your children will suffer from their pathology regardless, and you will not be there to protect or buffer them from it.<p>I am not saying that divorce is never indicated. What I am saying is that one should fully appreciate the very real and proven effect it has on children, including the unforeseen, unpredictable, and mostly uncontrollable behavior that an ex-spouse may deteriorate to that can literally destroy your and your children's lives.<p>I would love to have a storybook romance and lifelong love in my life, but I don't. And barring an environment that would seriously impair my ability to function as a parent for a prolonged period of time and/or endanger my or my children's lives, the chance of searching for a new partner is not worth sacrificing my children's well-being for.<p>I'm sure every parent here on this board who has lived it could tell you the sheer hell it is to witness what your children go through when the other parent moves out of the family home, and you're left behind, and there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO to fill that hole in their lives--NOTHING. You can hold them as they cry and/or rage, and you can assure them with your last breath that YOU will never leave them, but that hole will still be there.<p>And that is just the parent's hell. It's been many, many years, and I can still remember that day like yesterday and my children's grief-stricken faces and wracking sobs as well as my own as I tried over and over to comfort and reassure them. You cannot believe the powerlessness you feel as a parent in not being able to protect your child from the worst pain of their lives.<p>And it is no better for the child when the parent takes the child along as my mother did with us. I can still see, hear, smell, and feel what it was like to be in the car piled with stuff and the terror of knowing that something awful was happening because the TV was sitting on the car seat next to me.<p>And I had to keep asking my mom, "but why are we taking the TV?" because she said we were just going to visit grandma and grandpa and I knew grandma and grandpa already had a TV. And then missing my father all the days between visitations, only to have to miss my mother when we were with my dad.<p>Then the custody battles and being picked up from school by my dad when it was always my mom who picked us up and suddenly learning we were living with dad now because the judge said so (someone we didn't even know and had never even seen who was totally controlling our lives), and we couldn't even see our mom to say good-bye.<p>Only to go through it again a few years later when mom got custody again from a different judge. And all the times the police were called because someone was late bringing us back from visitation. And worst of all, trying to comfort your sobbing parent when they have to let you go live with the other.<p>Because of my childhood, I resolved not to repeat any of these mistakes. For my children's sake, I did everything possible to eliminate or reduce animosity between my children's father and I during and subsequent to my divorce and thought I could protect my children from the traumas I suffered. IT DID NOT MATTER! When your children's parent becomes a vindictive ex-spouse, they will stop at nothing to hurt you, no matter how many times they have to use your children as their weapon of choice to do it with. And there is virtually nothing you can do to stop it.<p>Just because my H is not who I wish he would be does not preclude me from having a satisfying life or providing a nurturing environment for my children within the M. Even in cases like my childhood, where the parents had loud ugly fights (where life is basically emotional hell for at least one, if not both, of the parents), the research holds out that even THAT type of M's deleterious effects on the children are still less than those from divorce.<p>As far as avoiding negative impact on a child, the scale only tips in favor of divorce in the most extreme of marital pathologies.<p>From this child's point of view, the fighting only got worse after the divorce, and we suffered many traumatic events because of the animosity between our parents, and it all had to be endured with one or the other of our parents not being available at any given time. And our parents were not alcoholic or financially irresponsible or neglectful or abusive in any way. It was the stuff between THEM with us IN THE MIDDLE that impacted us.<p>We ended up being parentified children trying to control and nurture our parents, and nearly every child of divorce develops this coping strategy. The agony and lack of security is painful for me to describe to this day, 40 years later--still makes me cry. The abandonment issues I still struggle with TO THIS DAY are the result of my parents' divorce and sequelae and are directly responsible for my inability to sustain a decent marriage myself. My older children suffer similarly.<p>I want, to the best of my ability, to provide my younger children of this marriage a chance to alter this multigenerational pattern. Nothing else I could accomplish in my life would be more meaningful to me, and as I head into the second half of my life, I am very mindful of my legacy.<p>It is a very difficult struggle because I am obviously "wired" for divorce with my background. It is the struggle of my life to try to hold this M together (mostly the strife within myself since H is now fully committed), but if I can live long enough to see my children benefit from it, I believe it will be worth it. But I still vacillate constantly between my own pain and the pain a D would cause my children, even knowing what I know, so I understand the desire for "escape".<p>The fact is my ex-H and I have a lifelong relationship with each other whether we like it or not because we have children together. Once you have children with someone you cannot escape that with divorce. You will be dealing with that person in one way or another for the rest of your life. Even if you don't have to have contact with them, they will touch your life regardless because they are the parent of your children.<p>The only way to make an informed decision about something with lifelong consequences for yourself and the people you love most in the world--your children--is to be fully cognizant of the reality of divorce to the greatest extent possible and not indulge in any denial about it. Our children's lives, our grandchildren's lives, and our great-grandchildren's lives quite literally depend on it.<p>[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by J-C:
<strong>It's NOT always best for the children for parents to stay together.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>BTW, J-C, I don't remember anyone saying it was, and I know I didn't say that. I know I said a lot [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] , but not that. Just making the case that avoiding divorce for the children's sake is a reasonable choice. It is still each individual's choice, but given its gravity, it should be a well-informed choice.<p>Oreo,<p>After posting all that above, I realized I should have started a new thread rather than clutter yours up, but I can't figure out how to cut and paste it into a new thread, so I apologize to you instead. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>