Hi, I'm new here, so forgive me if I break any 'rules' or fail to follow any guidelines - just point me in the right direction and I'll correct my mistakes. I've spent some time reading around the site and will continue, but I'd like to jump in here with a question.<p>I am currently wracked by guilt at my conclusion to end my marriage of 15 years/3 children. I don't want to feel like a bad person for giving up, but I don't think it can or should be saved.<p>To capsulize, my husband has had 3 confirmed long-term affairs, each lasted several years - the first had lasted over 6 years and I found out about in our 7th year of marriage. That affair resulted in a child but when he ended the relationship he cut off all contact with her and the child and she changed the child's last name and now pretends it never happened. That doesn't change the fact that it did.<p>A subsequent affair was with another co-worker, different job. This woman harassed and threatened me, then resulted to fake pregnancy tactics - which tells me that they didn't use protection either. After the affair ended, he continued being buddies with her brother, so he was still in her vicinity and could not/would not understand why I felt that his friendship with her brother should also end. This affair coincided with the first one!<p>Recently, different job, new affair. This one with a woman half his age, only 20 years old, but the affair started when she was closer to 19 and from what I'm told, she lost her virginity to him. I am extremely hurt still over this one because I moved out because of other problems in the marriage, even though I suspected but could not prove anything - and as soon as I left, he simply brought her into our house and played house. The whole time he was calling me begging me to come home - which I did, only to find our "home" had been tainted by her presence.<p>The first two did not know the truth about our marriage so I initially didn't fault them for the affair because I know it's HIS fault and he was the one lying to them. But after they found out, they attempted to "take him from me". This last one, I don't believe, knows much if anything about me. I think he has been lying to her about our marriage, making her think that we are separated or divorced. Now that I am back home, I found that he had been calling her everyday on his cellphone and of course, everytime he leaves the house for extended periods of time, I think he is with her. I think he is telling her that same age old line that he has to stay here for the kids and we don't sleep together, etc. She is so young and naive and probably believing all of it.<p>The others called me at some point and the truth came out, this one lays low and sneaks around. I have her information but I haven't called her to tell her the truth because I know he will just lie to her if he wants to keep it going. In the past, he would tell women that I was crazy and to stay away from me if they ever ran into me. That was what kept the lies going for so long.<p>Now, these are just 3 that I know about - there's also a one night stand from years ago. And also, how many do I NOT know about? <p>Add to that the fact that this man is a compulsive and pathological liar with a gambling addiction who has stolen money from both me and the children, stolen from my PURSE and my bank account, stolen items from the house and pawned them too.<p>Add to all of that he is financially irresponsible (obviously) and I feel that if I stay with him we will never ever have anything in life.<p>Add to all of THAT that with his behavior these last years, he has been neglectful with the children and they don't even want him around anymore because all he does is lie to them and let them down. They're old enough now to see the damage he has caused and it hurts me to see them hurting because of him.<p>Now tell me, are ALL marriages worth saving? Or is there a point when some people should just acknowledge there is no turning back and call it quits?<p>A part of me feels that we will better off without him. He has not been a big provider for years now, but any little bit will definitely help with 3 kids. If I leave him, we will suffer somewhat financially. And of course, I'll miss having that other person around, you know there's a certain level of comfort involved. But overall, I am so bitter and angry and resentful about everything he's done to me that I can't let it go long enough to truly enjoy myself with him. There is NO trust anymore. When he swears he's being honest and no longer involved with anyone, I can't believe him. When he asks me to give him money to pay a bill, I don't believe he'll pay it so I won't give it to him, and then he gets mad and says I have to start trusting him again. Yet, as recently as March 11 I see he called this girl on his cell phone - and that's only because that's the last bill I could get! Who knows if he's calling her STILL everyday and sneaking off to see her?<p>I just don't want my children to feel like I'm a bad person for making their father leave. I know they SAY they want him to leave, but when he's here they're all over him trying to play. When he leaves and doesn't come back on time - which is nearly all the time- they get mad and say they wish he would move.<p>Sorry it is so long but I just had to get it all out. What hurts too is that his family knows about all of his liaisons, esp. his mother. She claims that she loves me so much and wishes we could be closer, but that's hard when she has basically helped him cheat on me all of these years. He brings his women to her house, she sells them Avon, takes phone messages for him, lets them sit up in her house - and when I call she will tell me he is not there. She even claims this other baby that he had as one of her grandchildren even though she has never seen the child other than a picture and she knows that the child is not a part of our lives. His family knows about all of the women and that makes me humiliated to be around them. I know he is a grown man and his mother couldn't stop him, but she didn't have to provide him with a place to commit his affairs and basically help him.<p>Okay I'll stop now. If you're still reading, thanks for listening. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

im listening and am amazed at what you have endured. how old are your children? i dont think i would have the strength. i also think you allready have the answer you are looking for and are just looking for support. maybe some of the old timers or sage ones can give you better advice- i just wanted you to know someone was listening.

Another thing, he has never been abusive but last year I confonted him about him not paying bills and it exploded into him charging me into the wall and choking me. The police were called and he was ordered to attend counseling, which he hasn't started yet. His girlfriend bailed him out of jail, I recently found that part out. Why did he even come back here after that? I was ready to move on at that point but he came back anyway and declared that I couldn't make him leave because this is a rental and both of our names are on the lease. After a while we started getting along again but he still never helped pay any bills and he obviously continued seeing his girlfriend.

NancyCarl -
No, not all marriages are worth saving. If you are in a situation where you are abused, whether physically, verbally, or with constant betrayal - NO it is not worth saving. You deserve a life partner, someone that you can share hopes, dreams, and love with. Someone to nurture and who can nurture you. Someone you can be yourself with, and who you can trust.
I believe you know your answer. DO NOT feel like a failure as I think that is where your head may be at. HE has failed you and your kids and himself. You have the strength to be your own person.
God Bless

Thank you so much for listening, nikko. I appreciate it. Sometimes it helps when we just put things on paper. It helped me just to write it all out. I'm sitting here re-reading everything I wrote with tears in my eyes because I do know the answer, it just hurts still. Why should it hurt to put an end to something so painful? I should be jumping for joy, but this is not what I got married for. I wanted it to be forever, I wanted my kids to have both parents the way I never did. I never even knew my father and my grandmother had to raise me because my mother didn't want to be bothered. I really wanted it to be better for my kids and I guess a part of me feels like I've failed them by marrying the wrong man.<p>My kids are 13, 11, and 4.<p>and I know that he is not the only with fault here, I know I have to look at myself and see what part I played in this. But in all honesty and I say this after MUCH self examination, I cannot see where I did anything to deserve any of this. I tried to be the best I could, maybe I wasn't as adventurous sexually as I could have been, or maybe I got caught up in being a mom and slipped on being a wife, but I honestly don't think I did such a bad job. Especially not to justify all of this. If he was so unhappy, after the first affair he could have left. I gave him that option. We only had two kids then, it would have been easier because they were so young. But he always each time insisted that he wanted to stay and do better.<p>Now he just started a new job and I really feel it's only a matter of time before he starts up a new affair. I've come to expect that. He even told me once that I should just let a man be a man. He really believes there is nothing wrong with him having other women on the side, he says, as long as he is taking care of home. Well, in the past he did take care of home very well, and that may have played a small part in me forgiving him, looking at life as a single mother compared to the comfortable living we had. But since his gambling addiction kicked in, we have only been suffering and in debt, so now he has not taken care of home in years so that doesn't help matters! I think it makes me even madder to know that we're struggling here and I'm working to pay all of the bills and he can go out and ride other women around in the car and buy them things and take them out. That's like turning the knife in the wound!<p>Thanks again for listening. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I would have left a LONG time ago! Is is good for your children to be raised thinking that his behaviour is tolerable? There comes a time when we must teach our children that certain behaviors are unacceptable with hopes that they won't someday end up in a situation as miserable as yours is. Yes it will be lonely for a while, but when you feel lonely, turn to your kiddos, and wrap your arms around them. I suspect their warmth will keep you going. Personally if I left my hubby, I would not immediately begin searching for a replacement. Your "vision" may be blurred and you could end up with another bad marriage. Learn to stand on your own two feet, aid your children with their adjustments before introducing a new man into your life or their lives.
Like I said, there comes a time when holding a marriage together "for the kids" actually hurts them more than it helps them.

Thank you too, Alberta. I do agree. My grandmother was married for 50 years and I know it wasn't all rosy but I really don't think she went through much of the things we go through today. There are a lot more temptations and a lot more evil in the world today than it was when she got married in 1918. That was my inspiration, I wanted that kind of stability for my family.<p>But I guess it's better to give up now when I'm still at least young enough to enjoy life. I don't much care about dating or anything, I just want my children to be healthy emotionally and not be too scarred from this. I have a daughter and a son and I don't want her to marry someone like her father, nor do I want my son to be like him. <p>I've got a lot of work ahead of me.

I'm sorry you're here NC. You truly have endured much in your M. Good luck in making your decision. It's not an easy one when there are children involved. I know that my decision was right for me (ending the M) so in answer to your question, no, I don't belive that all marriages are worth saving. It's not even an issue of a marriage being salvageable if one S continues to lie to the other. Does a real marriage exist there? <p>The most important thing you will learn to do here is to let go of him (whether or not the M survives) and focus on yourself and what you can do to make your own life better. <p>Peace<p>Snow

You are right, jamup! I should have left the first time, esp. since it had been an affair almost as long as our marriage itself. but you know how you want to believe that it was a mistake and you give another chance? then it happened again, and then again, and after a while it became more a matter of not being able to leave financially. I think if I was in a better position right now with my job then I would be gone. So I'm taking baby steps to get back on my feet and then if he won't move out at least I can move out. That's probably what I'll have to do. I recently bought my own car in my name, since he was always taking the car and leaving me stranded at home. But it's hard to put together extra money when you're trying to keep current bills paid. However, I do see a break in the clouds! Just the fact that I am able to come here and type this all out, that affirms for me that I'm ready to make a change, I'm just planning and plotting becasue I don't want to need him once I'm gone.

Nancy,<p>I don't think it's TOTALLY hopeless, but it is definitely CURRENTLY hopeless, if that makes sense. What I mean is that it is conceivable that he could decide to turn his life around and do what needs to be done to hold on to his family, but so far he has not done that and for some strange reason is still of a mindset to place the responsibility for trusting on your shoulders instead of placing the responsibility for accountability and trustworthiness squarely on HIS OWN shoulders.<p>I think you should call your local women's shelter to learn what protections you may have under the domestic violence laws. I was told that if domestic violence was involved, they would help me get a restraining order and that even his name on the deed would not entitle him to live here. Fortunately, I haven't had to deal with domestic violence, so I didn't qualify for their help, but you might.<p>In your place, I would do whatever was in the best interest of the kids and me. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to get out right now, but to protect yourself and the children. If you need time to get your finances in order, etc., and your H is not an immediate threat to the safety and well-being of you or the children, go ahead and take that time to gather your strength and get done what you need to get done so you can make the transition as smoothly as possible.<p>Of course, if he escalates his behavior into the emotional or physical danger zone, then it becomes an emergency and you would have to proceed accordingly.<p>In the meantime, if you haven't read Surviving An Affair yet, I'd recommend that so you can develop a plan for yourself. Dr. Harley describes the necessary extraordinary precautions for ending the A and the ways the WS needs to be accountable to the BS. If your H actually followed those things, trust wouldn't be as much of an issue, which is why I say it's not completely hopeless. If a WS is willing to follow the structure that Dr. Harley provides, the secret second life is pretty much impossible, which really helps with the hope part.

I don't have a lot of time, but I do want to say that no, not all marriages are worth saving. Marriage is a wonderful gift, and I believe that people who enter into it need to give 110% before deciding to end it. But there are cases where there is really nothing to save, and I think that my marriage was not one that was looked on by God as a true marriage.
Elizabeth

Hi Nancy- read your story- wow I"m amazed at what all you have endured to try to stay married.Its admirable that you believe in the security of marriage so much. However like my pastor says, Even God doesnt expect you to live without respect, kindness and truth from your spouse. There comes a point where all you can do is all you can unless the OTHER spouse steps up to the plate and participates in making things better and healthier. Like you I have been married 15 yrs 3 kids, but my H had one affair and has ended it for certain. If he ever had another my hand would be on speed-dial to my attorney. Have you ever read any books about emotional abuse? Beverly Engel writes good books about that. She has a great one called The Emotionally Abused Woman. I think you would get alot out of reading that. Take care= lifeismessy

No, I don't think all marriages ar worth saving. You have endured far more than any person should have had to endure in a lifetime. I know that for me, if my H had another affair the marriage wouldn't be worth saving in my eyes.

I feel so sorry for what you have had to go through. I think your inclination to end the marriage is the right one. No wife should have to endure this kind of treatment. I have 3 children myself and I know how frightening the thought of being alone is. Get legal advice, your husband will be liable for child support if he has a job. Protect yourself and your children. Your husband has learned that he can continue his abusive behavior without losing his wife and family. You're right to fear what your children are learning from seeing this. I pray for strength for you.

Hi NancyCarl,<p>Welcome.<p>As you can see from my sig line I have given my H a few chances as well. My H fathered children during our 15+ year marriage with different women and did alot of lying and manipulating.<p>The first time, as you, I believed him. He said and did all the right things. But unlike your H, my H is not a drinker or a gambler or abusive, at least not in the physical sense. But he is a master manipulator.<p>I think the answer to your question "Are all marriages worth saving", is "NO", but the answer for your marriage is ultimately up to you, you have that answer inside of you ... only because you know your H and yourself better than anyone else.<p>Can you endure another 20 years of uncertainty and emotional abuse? Do you think you could Plan A without ever expecting your H to change and do that indefinitely? I'm not saying people can't change, they can. But you shouldn't expect that to happen and you can't control if he does or doesn't. All you can do is control you and be the best you can be and treat him with respect and kindness that may never be reciprocated by him.<p>I'm terribly sorry for your situation. I'm pretty sure I know exactly how you feel. You've invested so much time and you have your precious children to think about. <p>I think you should stay here and continue reading, posting and learning. The support and wisdom on this site is invaluable when in this devistating situation.<p>You have my prayers and thoughts. <p>Jo<p>[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Hi Hon,
Is it more fear of how you will manage without the H than wanting to be with the him? From experience, once the physical abuse comes into play, it will happen more frequently. You know what is best for your children, and certainly this is not the best for any of you. I hope you have support from your family, financially and emotionally ... you will need it.<p>At 33 with children (3 and 9) I left my H because of neglect, not coming home because he was too busy with "freinds" at bar/club. No real family activities. Maybe no affairs.<p>Left H and began new life with my children. After a while I felt so good about myself and my life and my abilities. Spent years as mom and dad to children. As I look back on my life (58 now), I consider that to be the very best time of my life. Daughter still calls me her "hero". <p>It won't be easy at first, but once you take the plunge, have the cry and get a grip ... you will understand how valuable you are and you will have the admiration of you children. <p>Cry to God, He will see you through and work all the best for you.<p>Love, hugs and prayers to you. Know it is hard and you are afraid, but you are all your children have, and all you have. We have to admit mistakes. But the little ones are God's gift and you alone are the caretaker.<p>Jan

Oh Dear God! I had to say something to all of this....and hopefully you are still checking your responses. I have always believed that all marriages are worth saving -- HOWEVER, he has to be willing to make some big, huge, major changes. He has to stop cheating, lying, and most of all GROW UP! Somehow, I'm not sure he is willing to do that....if he can neglect the children, lie so easily, and intentionally hurt you and his own children -- I wish I had better news in my thoughts of the outcome of this. I am so sorry that you are being hurt this much, but I also honestly believe that you are worth so much more than you are getting. You deserve love and respect....he may still love you in his own way, but he has not respected you from the start and I'm sorry to say I don't think he is going to start now. Good luck to you and God Bless.

No.....

Hello all, I'm still here. Just wanted you to know that I am reading and I sincerely appreciate all of your responses and input. In fact I've read this thread over and over!<p>I'm reading around the site some more and through the other threads too.<p>Right now I'm working on financial matters so that I can afford to care for US when he leaves. That's my biggest problem because even child support takes a while to kick in. And I know he'll get nasty when the dynamics change. So I need to be prepared for the fight. <p>But thanks again to everyone, and please continue to respond - your input may help others also who are just reading!