As simple as this subject may be, it has created a problem for me and my H. We have been living apart for 5 months now. In those 5 months when he came over for visits, he insisted on doing chores (dishes, sweeping, etc.)and I would say, "Please don't. You are here to visit and I would like to spend my time with you and the boys doing just that..... visiting." We can play cards with the boys, etc. That to me is why he came over. To visit with us. I don't want him to feel used. He says that I do not let him help when he "wants" to. K, well that is what has caused the uproar. We have decided that he will move home this weekend, but he will start staying the nights with me starting March 17. So my take on that is..... jump in and start helping with OUR chores now. This is now your home, even though the furniture is not here yet. Right? Wrong. A couple of nights ago, he told me clearly that he took MY garbage to the curb for me. He was looking for a thanks, and I thanked him. That struck me odd, but said nothing. Then I asked him if he would take the rotten apples out of the fridge and take them to the curb. He said no, didn't feel like it. Then later on I asked him if he would drive our dog to the groomer's in the morning. He said no. Didn't want to. I got sad.... wondering....K, so he gets to chose what he does around here? Who ulitmately is responsible to make sure all of these little things get done... when they need to? So, I went to bed. I felt really scared and felt that this is not a good start to our new beginning. In the morning, he asked me if I was mad at him and I said " I don't know." That was all it took. He flew off the handle. Last night, he said that he is not moving in now because of my poor atttitude. He does not see that he needs to do those chores that I asked him. Bottom line-- He said that he feels selfish, ... but does not want to be around me when I am down. Say it brings him down. Thinks that he is going crazy. Well, today, I talked to my friend at work and she said that I was way out of line. She said that all along while we were living apart, I should have allowed him to help when he "wanted" and should have never demanded (didn't demand help). And I should have never asked him to take the apples out, and take the dog to the groomer's. She said that ultimately, until he physically give up his apartment, he is not responsible for the chores that need to be done in my home. Well, fine. I screwed up. But the biggest beef that I have with this, is do any of us who care for children have a choice of when we want to help. Can we chose what we want to do? I say no. It is me that notices that there is no milk. No one else pays attention. I am the one that has to go buy that milk too. Even if it was my H that used the last of the milk, I will be lucky if I am told that we are out. I guess what my point is... is that I believe it is a joint venture... and you do the chores, until the chores are done. You help out. What he moves in, and I close my eyes for a month and not take note that there is no bread for lunches? Cuz I don't "want" to. Then what happens? So, what is your opinion on when things are done? what gets done. I am not complaining about my end of the chores. I chose to do it because I want things to run smoothly in the house. I want there to be bread and milk in my house every moring when the boys get up for breakfast. Maybe I am answering my own question. I want. He doesn't. Please help.

bump

BMWM,<p>I had a long post already for you, and the machine forgot that I was logged in. I don't know why it does that. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I will be much briefer.<p>I don't think this is about chores. It is about hurt feelings, uncertainty, perhaps some anger, and definitely resentment.<p>My guess and you can set me straight [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] is that:<p>1. You want to get on with things and build for the future, right?<p>2. You want to return to the way things were before the A with regard to how things ran, right?<p>3. You want him to be part of the chores, the household activities, right??<p>My guess is that:<p>1. He isn't "sure" that the marriage can be rebuild or that he wants to.<p>2. He doesn't feel that he has to take "orders" from you.<p>3. He doesn't know where he fits in the family now.<p>4. He doesn't know what his role will be in the future.<p>I will address myself to my guesses about him.<p>I suspect he is moving back to "see" if the marriage can be rebuilt. He is probably not sure he can trust you and what you will do in the future, hence item #1.<p>Given that you are the WS, my guess he views your requests as orders. I mean he has not even gotten the funiture back in and he is hauling the "bad apples". I suspect he expects a grace period given what has happened and he resents that you seem to have taken the "well now your back, so get to work" approach. Something for you to think about. This is why I said #2.<p>Item #3 is about the fact that you and the boys got along fine with him gone. So what is he needed for "hauling the trash", doing chores? what? Recall these are not his biological children and he may feel pretty detached from the whole family scene at this point although he has been visiting and playing with them. It is not the same as living with everyone again.<p>Item #4 Where does he fit??? You must remember you replaced him during your A. If you allowed anything it was simply for him to pay the bills and do the chores (which ever one he did). He may not trust that these are things that carried any weight with you before. So what is his role here?
My guess is that anything that reminds him of how it was during your A, will not be received well now.<p>The marriage has not been rebuilt. It has only been 3 months or so since D-day. His confidence level and willingness to be "used" is likely very low.<p>So what to do? My recommendation is let him move in, let him do as he pleases, work on rebuilding your relationship and your marriage. My guess is that as time goes on he will heal, he will feel willing to help (cannot expect full help, or what would you have to complain about with us guys? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). <p>So take it slow, one step at a time. His refusal sounds more like rebellion right now than anything else and that suggests that more healing must take place. Let things heal.<p>Hope this helps.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

I watched the today show this morning. Relates a little to what you are talking about. The statistics show that men are doing about 1/4 of the chores. Women come home from work, do chores, take care of the kids, house, bills, groceries, and cleaning. Some men do help by loading the washer or folding clothes in the dryer. A man needs to sit down with the wife and say, where can I help? I would like to do some things and some things not. Maybe cleaning the toilet is just too gross for them. They could unload the dishes, load the dishes, take the garbage out. Etc. Make a list of all the chores, and have him pick out a few the first week, and then say maybe next week we could add 1 or 2 more. <p>In our house, the chores of the house was up to me and the kids. WH helped a little bit. I had to cut the grass, trim the yard, vacuum, wash dishes, laundry, bills, groceries (we did 1/2) cause he likes to go to the grocery store, he helped fold some clothes, he helped giving the kids a bath, but on a regular basis, there was nothing set. I took the garbage out for years, until the kids got old enough to do it. NOw the responsibility is being placed back on me again, not always, but this past week our oldest daughter and I did the garbage. Next week, I get to clean stalls everyday, oldest daughter is gone to a horse show in Georgia, and 2nd daughter has exams. So I said I will do their stalls. Also oldest daughter feeds the 2 big dogs, I will take over that chore, also feed the cats, feed the other 2 dogs, check the bird, and check the guinea pig, answer phones for our business, plus clean house and etc. <p>A womans job seems to not be looked at by men as being very important or necessary. My WH says, so the house is messy, who cares. It has not been very many times in our marriage I saw him run the vacuum cleaner, or mop the floors. <p>A guy that we know came over the other day. His wife has back problems. It was so nice to hear a husband say I am helping around the house whenever I can. They hired someone to come in and clean their house once a week. He said he helps with whatever his wife says to do. He likes to help her, and said it makes him feel good that he is pleasing her. She is in pain of the back, because she has scoliosis of the back, and a rod was placed in her back, and it is bothering her now. <p>If men would help with chores, and have a list that on this day, this to be done, on this day, this to be done. And hopefully by the end of the week, all chores are done. Wouldn't this be wonderful, and you could say I love you for helping make my days easier, and I love you for wanting to help. <p>Men are good guys, but they are also macho<p> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

Just Learning, I read that you have read some other postings by me. The last one was regarding my H having an A...... two weeks ago (ONS). Yes, it has hurt. But come one, how long can the game continue? Yes, I want to start my new marriage and I do not want it to look anything like what it did before the A. It was sick then, Living with a drug user, who did what he wanted when he wanted--at home. Now there are no drugs, but I want a partner. This situation is not about "taking orders" from me. It is about willingness to be part of the family, rather than chosing to sit on the outside and take only what you want from it. The flip side of this coin could be that I leave him with the boys which could happen easily.. as he would raise those boys if given the opportunity. He is very close to the boys and calls them HIS boys. He has been with them since they were 1 &2. So, when I move home, do I sit back and take a rest period and figure out where I fit in? I don't think so. There is nothing attached to my butt to get the laundry going, getting the vacuum out.... other than selfishness and self centred-ness........ I would do it, doing it because it makes everyone's life easier. <p>I work full time. Come home and spend until 8:30 Pm cooking and then time with the boys plus hockey season.. lots of weekday travelling. So from 8:30 until 10:30 is when I have time to do chores. Fold laundry, clean toilets, etc. This does not happen everynight, but on the nights that it does...... some nights I am getting to bed at 10:30 PM. Do you think I have energy? So now H,is planning on coming home and he gets to sit on the couch and slowly break into the family life.... at his own accord. Maybe that is why this is not working. I don't get it.<p>IF you don't go to work and work, you will get a pay cheque until someone notices that you are not holding up your end of the deal. ..So I can say to my husband, "Come home and do what you want, when you want..... and I will even ice your cake for you." I don't feel that this is fair.<p>Maybe the smartest thing I can tell this poor guy is that he should not move home because I have a bad outlook on this.

Just another thought....Just Learning
Towards the bottom of the e-mail....you say that "we cannot expect full help from men..." then that would leave us nothing to complain about..... (not quoting you).... <p>That is a conscious statement that men (not all men) know they are capable of helping more but chose not to...<p>Kind of like what woman can do when they crawl into bed "Sorry hon, gotta a headache." <p>Who's got time and energy for these games? Not me. Thanks for your input. Your points of view clearly make my opinions clearer to me. I want fairness. I want to be treated equally. Is that too much to ask for. Not all parts of a marriage are nice and pretty. Some times the rotten apples do need to be taken out... and the baby's bum changed. But doing it should not be a chore. IT is what happens in a family. You have to plant your own roses if you want something sweet to smell.

BMWM,<p>You griped when he did the chores and you are already gripping that he won't do the chores and he hasn't really even moved in.<p>You tell me how this makes any sense? I offered you an opinion. You are free to do what you want, but as long as you feel sorry for yourself and view all of this from your point of view, I don't see much chance for your marriage.<p>The choices are yours. If you want the marriage, then take the data presented make your decisions and try to make it work. IF you don't keep on doing what you are doing. Tell him not to move home.<p>I have this interesting discussion with several women here and I will only repeat part of it to you. You may think you asked, but by his reaction he heard a "demand". You are not talking his language. If you don't want to try and get through to him because of the past, then don't. But, it is clear and your GF thinks it is clear what you are doing isn't working.<p>I won't get into who should do what chores. He seems to be surviving OK doing whatever he does without you helping with "his" chores. He came over an volunteered to do chores, suggesting that it isn't the chores that he is objecting to. It is how you are presenting this to him.<p>I don't recall reading about his ONS, but I note on your post that you were the WW. Any chance there is some pain, and hurt left? YOu say he was into drugs and stuff. Any chance there is some hurt and resentment left in you from that?? Deal with the hurt before you worry about the chores.<p>That is my advice. You two need to heal before you worry about the trash, the bathrooms, whatever. What is more important?? If it is the chores, hire someone do it and divorce him.<p>Am I being plain enough. Focus on the important stuff first is all I am saying.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

I agree with JL - "Deal with the hurt before you worry about the chores."<p>You both need to come to the point where you admit that you each have displayed selfish behavior in your M, and you need to come up with a plan that includes putting the other person first in all parts of the M, not just the chores.<p>It becomes a practical thing. In our house, I did almost all the chores - shopping, cooking, laundry, cleaning, etc., because my W worked almost every day and stressed about the housework. So I did it. Now that she resigned her job, she has been doing a lot of it, not because I asked or told her to, but because she realizes she's been the taker and I.ve been the giver for so long. Her selfishness has led her to the brink of the abyss. She understands that now, and is doing whatever she can to change and help repair the damage.<p>Try to focus on the big things, and the little things (like chores) will sort themselves out eventually.

Bmwm
Remember what you want here is a loving supportive environment for you, him, and the children...
Remember that you CAN NOT change him...only you...<p>Plan A for yourself...plan A is that you want the home that you live in to be as clean and neat and welcoming as you alone are able to make it....and that you accept what you can get done in a day...and accept what you can't...Plan A is that you change your attitude about it...that the more of a labor of love you can make out of this the easier it becomes..FOR YOU.and that when the two of you are once again in that place of meeting eachothers needs it just gets better..this is about you..although I am sure you feel like choking me about now...go ahead I can take it.. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Realize that at a point in your very recent past you told him not do those things...you wanted to convey that you valued him for him and for being part of the family...you meant it lovingly...but it may be that he felt rejected by you..that what he does is "wrong". Men often say that women complain they don't do any thing..and then when the do something we complain they don't do it right..or the way we do..or mom does...<p>We can analyze all of it...<p>this is something the two of you can work out...but probably not now..and I would tell you to tread lightly...that it appears that you have a lot of stress and perhaps even hurt/anger/____? (insert feeling) over the marriage...so don't get side-tracked by little things...don't make little things into big things...slow down....place expectations on you not him....<p>We don't have choices in not doing things...and sista I hear you as I have three of them all under the age of four.and my husband helps a lot!!..and life never has been and never ever will be fair...but it's reality...try not to make it harder than it has to be....for you own sanity and sake...<p>Read the articles on POJA...think seriously if this is the battle you want to wage war on..or if perhaps there are some other things you two should focus on and work on before we get to chores...<p>I mean this post with kindness...Be good to you...plan A...this is not a simple subject by any means...don't get mired up it..so that it destroys what you really want to accomplish...<p>peace to you and your home
ARK

Isnt it funny that when a woman does the "chores" its expected, kind of like thats what we do and dont give it a second thought. But when a man picks up a broom, or a dish rag, its like, "what a great guy to help you with that". Its still a mans world ladies, like it or not. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My H and I have been pretty good with sharing the duties since our son was born. Simply because there is so much more mess now, and one person cant keep up. Before he was born, I did the majority of the inside work, he did the yard work.<p>I'll always remember that H had to clean the cat litter while I was pregnant, and I thought I would never hear the end of it!!!! Also, I had to stop cleaning the bathrooms because of the chemicals, they got sooooo gross!! But you think he would clean the toilet?? Nope!! Somehow he tolerated cleaning the cat ****, but couldnt bring himself to clean the toilet! LOL!!

uh, I was gonna reply but I tripped over my H shoes he left in the middle of the floor.
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

BMWM, <p>I know how frustrating it can be to have a spouse who doesn't help, or when he does, it's like pulling teeth. My husband washed the pots and pans the other night and said, "I washed *your* dishes for you!" (with such a proud look on his face) WHAT?!! When did they become *my* pots and pans?? I used them to prepare *our* dinner!<p>I homeschool my kids, I work at night outside of the home. I cook, clean, pay the bills, grocery shop, read affair books, etc. Just like most of us here. He goes to work, TAKES A BREAK, (i don't get one of those during the day), comes home and is too tired to do anything but sit on the couch.<p>This is a HUGE issue with me. When he does clean, he does a fabulous job! Much better than I do. Right after d-day, the house was always clean and picked up. When he knew that we were going to work on things and I wasn't divorcing him, he stopped making that effort. I feel loved when he helps around the house. I feel like he wants to help me with this daunting task of cleaning up and it makes me feel good. <p>Sorry, I didn't mean this to turn into a "me" post, I just wanted you to know that I know how you feel about this particular issue.<p>My piece of advice to you is that I would put a hold on him moving in. I don't think that you were out of line by asking him to take the apples out. But his refusal probably really has nothing to do with the apples.<p>There comes a time when you can't just focus on the affair, but for me, that took longer than 3 months (i think that i read it was 3 months for you since d-day). I want to figure out what we can do to have a different marriage than we had before. We were often angry at one another. One of the reasons was because he never helped around the house. I've always said that foreplay starts in the kitchen! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It must be a power struggle of sorts. I think that it is with us [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>take care,
t.l.

BMWM<p>Have you tried talking with your H about this issue? That could go a long way. Although my H has always been very good about doing chores, we have discussed this issue on several occassions. We have managed to divide up some of the chores, and some things we both do whenever they need to be done. Things we have divided are things that one of us dislikes doing more than the other. For example, I hate to mop--just can't stand it--so my H does it. He doesn't like to dust, so I do that. And on top of that, there are other chores that we make our son do because he has to learn the responsibility of being part of a family and helping out that family. And example of this is that our son has to clean his own bathroom. <p>I suggest talking with your H. Have a family meeting if he would agree to something like this and divid up the chores. I won't gaurentee that it will work for you but it definately works for us.<p>Regretting

Hi JL, <p>Bet you're not surprised to see me posting on this one! Actually, I wanted to let you know that my H has started to do more in the way of chores around the house. Not a lot and not all the time but the big thing is he's doing it without me having to ask and feel like nag!! And yes, just like someone else on here said, I do thank him profusely even though it's just as much his mess as it is mine. Just letting him know I do see the things he's doing and that I do appreciate it.<p>I think it has a lot to do with society. My H is a carpenter and does a lot of work in private homes. I have been in many of these homes myself and some of them are downright disgusting. Beautiful homes but some you can't even walk through without stepping on something or you are afraid to touch anything because it's so dirty. What is the first thing someone thinks when they walk into a house like that? " My God, doesn't this woman know how to clean house?" I've heard my H say it and believe me it has to be BAD if he thinks it's a mess. I myself am guilty of thinking the same thing. Why is that?? I think that is why women feel so strongly about the condition of the inside of thier homes. It is a direct reflection on them and them alone. A very large burden to carry.

We devoted a therapy session to this exact same subject. I was feeling overwhelmed and tired. My husband would try to pitch in and help, but he didn't seem to pick or do the things I wanted or the way I wanted it done! <p>The therapist approach, and what she said she did at her house, is to MAKE A LIST. Simple as that. Then she would tell her husband, "ok, this is what has got to be done. Choose which items you want to do."<p>A lot of it is just in attitude. Try it just once...when he says "I washed YOUR dishes for you" just say "Thank you sweetie! I DO appreciate it so much. Thank you for helping out".<p>You will be amazed that your reaction could bump him!
I did have to learn to be appreciative of anything my husband did to try and help and praise and thank him instead of pointing out something that he missed. After all, all the years that I did EVERYTHING, no one came home and bragged on how clean the house was...etc...it just WAS. I discovered that it didn't even matter that much to my husband. That was MY filter. As far as the milk, if you didn't want to get it, just announce...."we'll be having orange juice tomorrow because we are out of milk" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>This probably doesn't help much. The main thing is that we shouldn't come across as a constant nag, but be appreciative for the small things. I find that this motivates my husband MORE to try harder when I am so pleased and appreciative and express that to him.<p>[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Susan ]</p>

I'm probably going to get "whacked" for this, but I sure would have second thoughts about bringing him back into my home. ESPECIALLY if I had some sort of 'gut feeling' that something wasn't right: "Maybe the smartest thing I can tell this poor guy is that he should not move home because I have a bad outlook on this."
Pardon me for being rude, but does this man think he is doing you a FAVOR by returning? And why is he a poor man? Sounds to me like he has an attitude problem. I don't WANT to walk to the garbage can for you with a bag of apples? He sounds charming. And what ELSE will he NOT WANT TO DO FOR YOU? eek.

Well this is getting interesting. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Ladies, I feel like annoying people today so I am going to put on my male sexist hat. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>First, some posted that the house is the "womans" domain as far as who gets blamed for having a dirty house. Who does the inspections and the blaming, mostly other women. Not men.<p>Susan made a great point and one I was trying to make to BMWM, saying "thank you" isn't going to hurt you. It is a lot less trouble than someone doing the dishes for you. Showing appreciation does help especially with a spouse who isn't certain that they want to come home. This discussion has degenerated into "who does the dishes", but lets remember BMWM's H left home because of HER affair.<p>I don't think the dishes are the important thing here. It is the marriage, it is rebuilding, it is showing care after showing complete disregard. IT IS NOT THE DISHES. <p>Also forgotten in this,is that he was coming and doing chores voluntarily but she didn't want him to. Now she wants him to and he isn't. Focus folks, time to focus on the real problems.<p>Now I will stop the marriage building part of this post. Most women are connected with how the children are fed, are dressed, and how the house looks. Men get the blame if the family is in financial straights no matter if it is their fault or not. Both sides of this equation have their preconceived obligations.<p>I will ask most of these women, did you chose your H because of his housekeeping skills, or perhaps did the fact that he had a job and a future of financial stability play a role?? Don't answer I know.<p>Do you thank him for every paycheck he brings home? Do you wish he made more money? Do you wish he worked less hours, more hours??? Do you wish he worked a job that brought more social recognition and prestige?<p>I already know you want him to be a much better homemaker?<p>What I find most interesting on this board and in my life, is that I rarely hear men complain about their W's, other than sex; which they did marry their W's for. Yet, it is constant with the women. He doesn't do...<p>Women complain here that men do the dishes and expect to be validated, yet they turn around and say how validated they feel when the men do the dishes. Does that make any sense?<p>It doesn't to most men. <p>I could go on, but the point of all of this, is that BMWM's H doesn't feel like she does nor does he feel like most of the ladies that posted here on this thread. As has been pointed out, he is entitled to his feelings just as BMWM is. But, if she doesn't take his into account, then she will lose him.<p>Her choice, no matter how much he may or may not want to continue this marriage, she holds the power to divorce him or drive him off. She is not some helpless victim. She has options.<p>She came here obstensibly to try and save her marriage. She has been given advice which she may or may not take, again her option. But, if she thinks he thinks like her she is wrong, and will fail at her stated objective.<p>I would like to see her succeed, and whining about how much domestic support her H gives her when he doesn't even live with her, is not going to get the job done.<p>I sure do hope that you do read what I have said and seriously think about it BMWM, all that is at stake is your marriage. Not the dishes, or the dust balls.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Bingo!! You said it perfectly JL...at least I got it. <p>It is really not about WHO does what. I think a lot of this is built up resentment and anger coming out sideways from all different issues.<p>The main thing here is not focus on who DOESN'T do what...instead what is the real issue. What is the CORE problem. What caused the affair. Look at yourself (you can't do anything about him). Why did you have the affair in the first place? What did you like about yourself in the affair or what needs did it meet? How can we foster that part of you in the marriage?<p>It is about a whole lot more than who does what chores. Are you in counseling?

Again I take my chances. Just Learning: Do you mean to imply that because this woman made a bad choice (affair) that she now has to suck it up and put up with a man who won't even walk a bag of apples out to the curb for her?? And someone correct me...this man was on drugs?? And he comes home with an attitude and she should focus on making him happy? While he won't even walk to the curb for her? Boy. I must be a b*tch.

Again to Just Learning:
I will ask most of these women, did you chose your H because of his housekeeping skills, or perhaps did the fact that he had a job and a future of financial stability play a role?? Don't answer I know.
You KNOW? Excuse me. I picked my husband because I love him. I made 3 times as much as he did last year. So does that mean I have the right to expect HIM to do 90% of the housekeeping? <GRIN><p>Do you thank him for every paycheck he brings home?
Yes, actually I do....by doing things for him that I do not HAVE to do. (Helping him clean his boat...Helping him tote his gear up and down the stairs) <loving gestures><p>Do you wish he made more money?
I wish he was as rich as Bill Gates....then we could live off of our investments... and he could have more free time to do what he loves.<p>Do you wish he worked less hours, more hours???
Hell, I've worked 80 hour weeks. What more can I say about that? Ya do what ya gotta do.<p>Do you wish he worked a job that brought more social recognition and prestige?
Not really. Then I would be obliged to be the hostess with the mostest (as those circles seem to run). I wish he could buy a fishing camp. I'd help him run it.
Now take that bag of apples to the curb. CLK-K