juststartingover,
Interesting observation. Maybe that's were me and my two male friends fit together. I don't get all emotional with them, although I have as have they with me. I 'compete' with them at a sport on a regular basis so we have that to talk about, I talk just as much 'trash' as they do, sometimes more. I don't feel like there's this big gender issue that stands between us. BUT, I do not seek out new male friendships nor do I encourage any male that tries to seek one out with me. I am comfortable with the two males freinds that I have and I realize that these two friendships are unique in nature.

Been thinkin about this... I'll cast my vote now.<p>I like Jeffers' list:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I believe there is a line between friendship and EA. The following are key elements that help to determine the difference:<p>1) Secrecy. The spouse is kept in the dark about the depth of the "friendship". Things that might be kept secret are the amount of time spent together (or on phone), topics of discussion, how often the "friend is on the WSs mind, etc...<p>2) Sharing. Specifically sharing of thoughts or emotions with "friend" that are not shared with spouse. Often, this is an in-depth discussion of marital problems that the spouse may not even be aware of!<p>3) Somewhat related to the other two are "if onlys"... If only I'd met you years ago.... If only I weren't married... If only I didn't have kids... The two friends sort of reach an agreement that although they might've made a go of it, circumstances prevent it (very tragic...for now).<p>I think it is "possible" for men and women to have "just friends" relationships.
<hr></blockquote><p>I believe the secrecy is the key that makes it an "EA". Of course, even sharing marital problems with a close same-sex friend could also be dangerous. The more energy you give problems, the bigger they can become. And it depends on what the friend does with the info. Do they fuel the fire? (like: "Yeah, he IS a bum!!!") or do they help you see how to better handle the issue, or suggest you discuss things openly with your spouse?<p>For SINGLE M/F friendships, the secrecy stuff doesn't matter - there's no spouse to hide things from or betray - emotionally or physically. I believe they ARE possible. As unsureofme pointed out, usually the man wants to pursue a physical relationship. I think if the woman holds her ground, and keeps things non-physical (that "self-control" someone talked about), the 2 friends can push beyond the temptation to take things further. The temptation (or infatuation) will pass, and can result in a very rewarding friendship. <p>Of course, I believe men and women SHOULD develop a friendship before it becomes a romance or anything physical. It builds a bond of emotional intimacy that is necessary if a romance ensues. Skipping over the emotional intimacy straight into physical intimacy builds the relationship on a shaky foundation. <p>I like to think of male friends as "brothers" - a brother I never had but always thought would be neat to have one. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>my 2 cents [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Just-an-idiot, (First of all, change your screen name, you're not an idiot!)<p>Sorry to hear what you are going through. It's kind of like what I put my H through for the last 2 years (We've been married 21 yrs and have 2 teenage sons). I fell in love with a colleague, with whom I was "just friends." But my H and I have weathered it. By the way, I never fell out of love with my H during the whole ordeal. I was in love with two men in different ways. <p>First of all, he's going to have to change jobs, if at all possible. You need to tell your H that he's fallen in love with OM and it's hurting your marriage . I wouldn't admit to myself or my H that I had fallen in love bc we never touched how could I be in love, etc. You can be.<p>I had to change jobs…it's been one year since I changed jobs and I'm still struggling. The only advice I can give you is to be patient and loving. Try to refrain from being accusatory and *****y…it doesn't help. It will only push him away…(and he'll be able to rationalize leaving you by thinking you're such a b*****, etc, and you guys are incompatible and fight all the time, etc. <p>My H was incredible and didn't push me into a corner where I had to make an impulsive decision. Throughout the process, my H loved me and was kind and sweet to me, even though at times he was torn-up. And I was always kind and loving towards him.<p>But my H told me that I had to quit seeing and communicating with my friend. I haven't done so completely…but am doing much better. <p>The other thing your H might have to do is tell the OM that he's fallen in love with her and it's ruining his marriage and that they can't see be in contact any more. If he doesn't tell her, tell your H that you might have to tell her yourself. Good luck!

Hi Sneezy,
I have male friends too. One predates my marriage by 4 years. The others were friends with my H before our marriage, or are men who fit into our peer group and who are joint friends. I talk to them with interest, love their company, don't ever respond in any way to any compliment or flirtatious comment. My H says he gets pangs of jealousy, but trusts me because he sees how stringently I guard my boundaries, and it sharpens his regret at betraying me with "just a friend who's an old girlfriend." He thought the Harley principles were so much slavery and emotional manipulation at first, but now that he understands the principles of protection and the need to be on guard, he follows them without any hooha. And he flirts with me himself.. which I encourage!!<p>My best male friend is one with whom I have a great brother/comrade relationship. We compete all the time in a goodhumoured way. Both of us write poetry, and we toss scraps back and forth, we try to cap each other's quotations, we squabble over our work, criticise (constructively) each other's publications. We talk about high philosophy, shoes and ships and sealing wax, cabbages and kings. No sexual interest. So I guess if you truly want to be friends with a man, and you're a woman, you have to behave like a man with him!

Thanks. A while back I changed my name, got a new one but I can't seem to find that name/password, so I just went back to this one. I know I'm not an idiot -- that was the old me!
But what I want to know is how can I tell him something that he doesn't believe to be true??? It's my word against his and technically only he can know what he is feeling, true? I try so hard to believe it. I never pester anymore about who he's emailing, etc. When he goes out I make sure not to ask who was there (I'm sure she was but I don't ask). And actually it has made him open up more. He tells me things she says sometimes, stuff about her kids, etc. Which is what people do when they have friends. I know I tell him things about my friends all the time. But because she is a female, that's different? Why should it be if they are just friends? That's what I try and get through to him. I know in my heart and soul she doesn't feel the same about him (if he even feels the way I think he feels). Oh it's all so confusing. I know he won't leave his job and I can't tell him, just like I can't tell him to stop contacting her. It's just so frustrating too, how can they have so much to say to each other? He's such a quiet guy, always has been around us. Sorry. I'm rambling. Thanks for your advice.

I don't know...I think it can be done and many women do it everyday..they have relationships with men that are strictly platonic...<p>Maybe it's in how we view people in general..as people..and not looking at them as sexual beings..<p>Maybe if you stopped telling yourself it can't be done..you could find that you can actually have a meaningful friendship with women..and it not be sexual...<p>I have had many men at my old church that I consider true friends..some of which I confided in about my marriage problems at the time..also because I confided in their wives..and I knew that these women would discuss these things w/ their husbands--and pray with their husbands together about these things..so some of them knew what was going on before I said anything..and many came to me offering their support..and it wasn't sexual support..it was emotional support..<p>I ran into one of them the other day who came up and gave me a hug in the parking lot at the grocery store..he asked how things were going in my marriage and I told him were now divorced..he hugged me again and told me how sorry he was things couldn't have been different..and told me again that if there was anything I needed to call..whether it be help w/ getting things fixed around the house, yardwork or whatever..so yes,
I think that men and women can be 'just friends'<p>I think it may be the mindset of the people involved in the relationships as well..and if
they are secure in themselves..and their friendships..

I believe in a perfect world men and woman can just be friends but I think in reality it's the exception rather than the rule. I would not feel comftorble with my wife having a male friend that she does stuff with especially if he was good looking. I've read a lot of posts about couples that are friends and friends that are trusted with spouses that end in betrayl.

JAD-<p>Trust your gut - if it feels wrong to you, believe me: IT IS WRONG... <p>-Not sure how to get you off the path your on ( i never figured it out ) but do not stand by and let it happen.<p>Someone above said:
"My H says he gets pangs of jealousy, but trusts me because he sees how stringently I guard my boundaries"<p>THESE ARE THE WORDS OF A SPOUSE WHO IS HONEST WITH HERSELF ABOUT THERE BEING A NEED TO GAURD HER BOUNDARIES.... SHE CHOOSES TO LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD AND THUS HAS CHOSEN TO BE TRULY FAITHFUL...<p>IF YOUR SPOUSE DOES NOT HANDLE HIMSELF IN THE SAME WAY AS THE ONE QUOTED ABOVE THEN YOU SHOULD BE EXTREMELY INSECURE AND NOT BE AN ENABLER TO THEIR RELATIONSHIP!!!<p>I wish I could give you the answer about how to do it with out seeming paranoid (by the way, you are not paranoid) and without having your efforts backfire on you - doi you have a councelor you could talk to?

One other reply that is needed...<p>someone else above said the problem is that we need to stop looking at eachother as sexual beings...<p>Hello? We ARE sexual beings... pretending that is anything other than a FACT is not the answer.<p>Every minute of every day, humans are sexual beings... we are simultaneously alot of other things too, but we never stop being who we are... and we are sexual beings...<p>Again, that doesn't mean such relationships should be banned. But it does require that we get real and quit lying to ourselves and our spouses about it. <p>-And it requires that we set and maintain limits to our relationships with the opposite sex...<p>If that is done - and done well - such relationships can be fulfilling and not hurt your marraige (as many above have said)...

Yes we are created as part sexual beings..but we don't have to view each other that way..<p>That is a matter of self-discipline in how you view others..and also setting personal boundaries..<p>but hey not everyone can say NO to themselves..or their own sexual desires..and I think that has a lot to do with it, it also requires respecting yourself enough to know you don't need to have sex w/ all your friends..<p>My ex hated my men friends..but he also hated my female friends..those were his insecurities..not mine..according to him men and women couldn't be just friends either..and according to him every man that looked at me or that I looked at wanted to have sex w/ me and I wanted to have sex with..
and Heaven forbid any I speak to another man or another speak to me..because OMG it just had to be about sex..like I am not capable of carrying on an intelligent conversation w/ another human being
that doesn't involve sex..<p>I'm sorry, but most women don't think like that..
and just because I find a man attractive doesn't mean I want to jump in the sack w/ him..apparently thats how some men view women..she's just so hot I just gotta jump her bones..with a total lack of respect as a person..<p>I don't know, maybe it's just my views on life as a Christian and relationships..and knowing Christ had many initmate friendships with women and didn't have sex with any of them..yes He was fully God, but He was also fully man..and therefore had the same desires as men..and yet didn't follow his desires..and He treated these women with respect..
so thats one of the qualities I am looking for in men..one that treats me w/ the same respect they feel they deserve as people..<p>Don't get me wrong..I know there are many men out there who don't fit that..and who only look at women as sex objects..I've met many of them..but I've also met many who don't..so that I know it is possible to have those friendships..

unsureofme:<p>I haven't read all the replies yet, but I wanted to comment on one point you made that reminded me of something funny that a coworker said a few years back. Just to add a little levity to this. Sorry if it's not welcome. I will read on, as this subject is very important to me in my situation, as it is very pertinent to how my W's A started and how our life is being affected since it "ended."<p>The conversation was about whether people were either "basically good, or basically evil." This coworker, who had been listening silently to the whole conversation, simply said "I don't think people are either basically good or basically evil. I think people are basically stupid."

ashirley:
"But my H told me that I had to quit seeing and communicating with my friend. I haven't done so completely…but am doing much better. "<p>I have to ask you, since my W is in a very similar situation right now: Why haven't you broken off contact completely? Do you think that it's possible to be friends with OM, now that you've had an A with him? Even if you believe it's over, does OM know it's over? Can your families live with a friendship continuing?<p>
I think this thread is both fascinating and very frustrating. I remember a quote on someone's post, presumably from Steve Harley, that "an affair is what the BS thinks it is." This is true, but it also means that it applies to things like spending too much time on one's hobbies and away from your S (I was doing this more, just about the time my W's PA with OM reignited after some years of lying dormant - being "friends"). You can probably tell that I don't believe it's possible for most people to have opposite sex friends for long. But it is important to note that the secrecy from one's spouse is probably the most serious indication that an EA has started. I guess in this sense, my spending time on my hobbies wasn't an A at all, because it was with full knowledge of my W. I still regret anything I did or didn't do that led my W into deciding to have an A (though I won't take responsibility for her decision).

unsure,<p>Scan down in the General Questions a few posts, and see my "Am I Being Petty?" question.<p>My H is in an EA and I don't believe there can be platonic opposite sex friendships between people married to others. The married man and woman should not have a closer relationship than either the man or woman have with their married partners.<p>Yours in grief,

I've kind of kept up with this thread all day and I keep reading that what I have with my male friend isn't possible. I assure you that while it may not be right for you it's worked out well for all involved here. <p>My H and Alan (my best friend) play racquetball together every Wednesday and Jodi (best friends W) and I go to the gym 3 times a week together. I also shop with her and I have shopped alone with Alan for things for her. When H and I were married Alan was our best man and H's sister was the maid of honor. When Alan and Jodi married I was matron of honor and Jodi's brother was best man. <p>I have never had any romantic or sexual feelings towards Alan and he laughed at the idea that we could ever be sexual. Not all men are on the prowl after any female within sight and not all women capsize when confronted with a good looking man.<p>I love my H and the relationship I have with my best friend Alan is completely fine with my H. Jodi never felt threatened by me because what Alan an I share is more like a brother and sister.<p>I know this wouldn't work for everyone but it does work for us. It's been 33 years and we never crossed the barrier of friendship. I hope to have him for 33 more years [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

TinyDancer,<p>From your description it sounds like your relationship passes the three criteria I listed. Your relationship with your friend is open to (and includes) both spouses.<p>Dr. Harley talks about friends in detail in some of his articles and admits that people do have opposite sex friends. The problems arise when the relationship with the spouse is troubled and the friend is "friendlier" than the spouse causing their lovebank balance to be larger. People tend to spend more time with people that make them feel good and things progress from there.<p>This really isn't a dig directed at you, TD (really a comment for everyone)<p>Others on this board have told stories that sounded similar to yours, ie. They had an incredibly strong "platonic" relationship, but somehow sex "just happened", though it seemed "right" afterwards. Remember too, that an EA isn't about sex and is just as devastating.<p>The Harley's claim that's how it works. To protect your marriage you have to keep the lovebank account of your spouse high and prevent anyone else the opportunities to make their own large deposits.<p>Jeffers<p>[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: jeffers ]</p>

2long,
Up until yesterday, I just hadn't quite gotten to the point where I felt I could cut off all contact with the OM. We had cut way, way, way back, but I was in touch with him every 3 weeks or so. I really wanted to be able to have him as a friend. I felt that I had failed him by falling in love, so I wanted to prove to him and myself that we really could be friends.. Luckily for me, the OM is much wiser and more knowledgeable about human relations than I am. I really needed for him to tell me not to contact him, but I wasn't ready to hear that until yesterday, and he did so. Believe it or not, I am very relieved. I no longer have to try to do the impossible…that is remain friends with someone I fell in love with. <p>Thank god I didn't ruin my marriage and thank god I never fell out of love with my H. He is a truly amazing man and is really working hard to give me the attention that I was seeking and received from the OM. If any of you would like to hear how he handled the fact that he knew that his wife had fallen in love with an OM, and didn't let it drive him crazy or ruin our marriage, or lessen his love for me…let me know and I'll be happy to share. Because, it is a success story!

Let me say this about that.
I do not know if men and women can be "just friends".
I only wish my wife would not have tested the theory. I told her months before her affair begin that she and the OM were getting too close and she just keep on saying we are just friends and it is too bad I cannot handle that.
Well, it turned out she did have an affair and now it is too bad for my kids, my wife, myself, the OM, his wife, and his kids.
Why test the theory. It is not worth it.

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

This is a facinating post and I am going to have to print it out to read it carefully. However on looking through it I started to think about my H's female friends. Over the years he has accumulated many friendships with women - some of them well and truly predate me (16 years) - and some even pre-date his first marriage. It has suddenly dawned on me that it is something to do with his need for "admiration". Over the years he has denied my suggestion that he "flirts", and I never took any of it seriously until the A. Now I look back and can see just how inappropriate some of those relationships were/are eg the work associate that he has expensive dinners with 2 or three times a year, the long time friend (once widowed, once divorced who phones him up and and asks him to be her escort to something or other, the woman he met on an o/seas trip who e-mails him with updates about her life. The journalist who invites him to stay with her interstate. In the past I have felt small minded about quuerying these "friendships" - most of the women I know - some of them I might even consider my friend as well. But what it all seems to point to is on-going need for admiration from the opposite sex. And it only took one such relationship to go too far

Again I come out of my shell to leave a word or two I can't seem to keep to myself.<p>I originally read this post last night and spent the last 24 hours thinking it over time and again. Here are my feelings.<p>While it is easy to say that male and females can not be platonic friends I feel that is unfair to say the least.<p>In my opinion anyone can be friends or they can be lovers. It is an individuals choice. <p>I am almost 45 years old. I married the first time when I was only 3 weeks into being an 18 year old. My ex-H's best friend and I were also best friends. Never once did it go beyond or attempt to go beyond a friendship. My ex worked days adn the friend worked swing so often we would carpool and go to town together on paydays to grocery shop and bank. I remember when I was pregnant with my first child and this friend and I were in town. We stopped at McDonalds and he jokingly told me to pretend I wasn't with him so people wouldn't think WE were married and We were expecting-LOL<p>Another incident happens to be with my high school friends husband. She was cheating on him-though neither he nor I knew it at the time-and when she left him and their daughter he began making it clear to me that he "liked" me. I liked him too-as a friend. Oddly enough he is now married to my older sister and in my mind I have always felt that he hooked up with her because he was attracted to me and maybe he thought she and I were a lot alike (we are NOT). Anyhow-that was all years ago. <p>I find it often times easier to be friends with a guy than a gal. They pose no threat as a female can. Men tend to be more honest and kind than women-sorry gals :-(<p>My H had an A with my used to be so called Best Friend. It had nothing to do with them being too good of friends. It did have everything to do with them making crappy choices and thinking the grass was greener on the other side of the fence.<p>I think anyone can be friends. And I think anyone can keep it just that! And then on the other hand I think there are many people who can and will make some very poor decisions.<p>Not to say that a good friendship can't be ruined by one party making moves towards the other party. But again-we are all able to say no just as easily as we are able to say yes.<p>It has to do with morals and how we are feeling about ourselves and what our lives are like. And it is each persons choice on how we behave and what actions we make and take in life.<p>I hope I have made some sense here. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]