Wife's B'Day went well. She seemed very touched by my efforts. She was oblivious, though, to the connection between this B'day and my proposal to her in '85. I asked my daughters if they knew the story of our enagagement and then told them. Then my wife caught the connection.<p>Anyway, Sat morn. we rolled around a little in bed and then I got aggressive. My W protested but next thing I knew we were having SF! Nine months to the day since the last time!! It was a roller coaster of emotion for me. She really seemed into it, more so than usual. After, I wanted to talk about it, she didn't.<p>All weekend I struggled over this. Yet she seemed oblivious to my need to talk about it so I kept quiet. I have many emotions about this. It didn't happen the romantic way I envisoned. It seemed we were disconnected. I wonder if she was comparing me to OM. It hurt to see her eyes closed in enjoyment and realize OM saw her this way. Yet my W has no clue that I am struggling with this. And if she is, too, I'd never know it.<p>We had a minor blowup over her credit card use on Sun. Same old thing. She uses cards, then hides them from me. Only difference, I told her last week that I was trying to pay off the cards and get rid of them and then she goes out and uses them. Then she lies about it.<p>Everything calmed down, we had dinner. Sun nite we went out to Starbucks. Not a word was said the whole way there. Finally, on way home, I asked her if I could ever experience her "pursuit" of me. She didn't understand what "pursuit" meant. I gave in to temptation and began to describe the actions she took in her A (hours long phone calls-constant e-mails-seductive lingerie-perfume-planning special activities). <p>I never mentioned A or OM, but she caught on and BLEW UP. Her basic premise- nothing she does will ever be good enough for me. Her last words "I'll never be able to give you the love you want-I guess because of what I did- I'm sorry".<p>I didn't say another word the rest of the nite. I didn't know what to say. I was very hurt. Got up today and came to work. She left me message saying that I probably misunderstood her, as usual.<p>She called me back and asked why was I mad at her? We started another endless, worthless, round and round conversation that ended with her screaming that I never should have married her-she'll never be good enough for me. <p>When will my WW learn that this is a serious, deep problem that needs NEW solutions?? Her saying that I have to wait for her timetable-that I can't keep telling her what I need-that I need to have patience and things will get better- IT AINT GONNA WORK!!<p>We need help-radical recovery-intervention-a plan. Time alone isn't going to make this all go away and get better.<p>So- now I sit. I'll go home tonite pretending nothing happened. I'll try to be a phony and make believe that everyhting is OK. Maybe I'll succeed this time. I want so much and I get so little and her attitude basically is "Now you know what it's like". But she doesn't realize 2 things:<p>1)it has been like this in our marriage for me as well as for her;
2) she had a taste of "true happiness" in her A- I haven't. <p>W said that she doesn't want to "just give me what I want" without it being genuine. I told her that you can take actions of love without feeling the love- hell, I did enough of it while she was blatantly having A under my nose! I said that the feelings can follow such actions. She said I read too many books!<p>ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Boppo57 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When will my WW learn that this is a serious, deep problem that needs NEW solutions?? <hr></blockquote><p>In her time... not yours... that is the key.<p>Check out Divorce Remedy for 'solutions-based' therapy... many people confuse talking out problems w/ actually solving problems...<p>sometimes the solution is learning to figure out why it is affecting you the way it is... what is it that you are replaying? then it becomes your job to learn how to 'soothe' yourself... how to react differently... how to change your focus...<p>...remember these things you see as problems are not really about your wife... they are about you... and only you can 'fix' them...<p>Hugs,
Cali

Boppo -- <p>Cali makes a very good point -- this is about you. You need to alter your expectations. Or stop HAVING expectations.<p>You want this controlled recovery -- your wife is NOT in recovery, your marriage is not in recovery!<p>You are in Plan A -- and in Plan A you need to remove LB'ers. <p>LB'ers are: having relationship talks (how many this weekend?) Making selfish demands (asking her to pursue you...telling her your needs)...you know the rest Boppo. How many LB's were you guilty of this weekend?<p>Please let me remind you of the WS method of scoring:
1 nice thing = +1 point
1 LB = -20 points<p>I think you LOST ground this weekend Boppo.
LB'ers are a BIG deal.

Thanks Cali. I have to buy Davis' book.<p>Thanks Lexxy- you are so right. My W actually said to me that she so appreciates all the loving kind good things I do for her, but that when I talk like I did this morning, it's like those other things never happened!<p>I have forgotten about the "no LB'er" rule. I am reverting back to my selfish "I Want", "I Need" mentality. But time does that to you, I guess.

<<<conversation that ended with her screaming that I never should have married her-she'll never be good enough for me.>>><p>When someone tells you they're not good enough for you -- believe them.<p>Psycho_B***h

I'm gonna respectfully disagree w/ Psycho_B....:<p>When someone says they are not good enough for you, it is generally because they think they are not good enough for THEMSELVES... it has NOTHING to do w/ the other person...<p>They suffer from tremendously low self-image... and there is absolutely NOTHING anyone can do to fix it except that person... <p>You cannot give them enough compliments... You cannot love them enough... You cannot believe in them more...<p>The doubts are in themselves... <p>Cali

Psycho B***H wrote<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> When someone tells you they're not good enough for you -- believe them. <hr></blockquote><p>I tend to agree with Cali, at least in my situation. My W divorced at 20, w a daughter. I have discovered, from half a dozen old boyfriends or other friends, that she was a serial cheater.<p>She has had 2 A's since we were married in 1985. I think the A's and the other cheating in the past serve as a way for her to validate herself (I know, psychobabble). She is a very attractive woman still, at 47, and she has probably had alot more opportunities than I know about to cheat on me. But in her unguarded moments with me, and in her e-mails to OM, a vulnerable, insecure girl emerges who worries that she has no marketable skills, lacks confidence, and needs someone to take care of her.<p>I don't think of her that way, though. I believe she sells herself way short, is a wonderful mother and could be a great caregiver to small children. Her dream is to do mission work overseas in an orphanage. I hope to help her make that dream come true (if I stop obsessing over her A and let her love me!)<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Boppo57 ]</p>

Boppo, My H also says he is not good enough for me... strange... that 2 ws... I know there are more... that say this... he at times says it angrily, and at times guiltily. Sad... he really does need to be better for himself... a big part of h's issues are alcoholism... also by product of low self esteem... I guess the a's made them feel a little better... ??? sad, just wanted you to know you are not the only one.<p>H

If she is a serial cheater there is no amount of Plan A/B that can save your marriage. Her affairs are all about her and her issues so no matter how little you LB, how wonderfully you meet here needs until she gets help she will continue to have affairs. Somewhere here Dr Harley talks about Plan A being enabling in certain situations.

Boppo,<p>I'ts been over 6months for me from Dday & no SF. Even though I am the BS, I have a feeling that if (when) we have Sf, that it will be auckward (spelling?!?!- I'm having a brain burp!!!) It will take time. But, it will take more than that as some of the others have posted. <p>I am reading a book that I found in the sales section of B & N (4.98) titled "Difficult Conversations". A short summary is posted on GQII.
There are issues that you wife needs to work on, but this book can show you how to talk so your wife will feel safe to work on finding a solution for your M. <p>I know how you feel, you work on yourself and grow, and want a good M. And it's simply not there right now. I'm your wife's age (close -46) and my WH is probably a serial cheater too. I know that he has issues outside of me and our M. I guess you could say that right now I'm in an eerie state of calm.<p>god Bless

It seems to me that she is afraid of your anger. Most people don't feel comfortable around a person who gets angry at them. Even if they had an affair, you will have a very hard time getting them to open up if they are worried about every move they make.
Also by acting silent after you are hurt or mad, is still not helping. She probably knows you well enough by now that when you get silent for long periods of time, that you are angry about something.<p>If what you are doing is not working, then maybe you could try a different approach. When she said she would never be good enough for you, that should be a clue that maybe she was saying that no matter what she is doing , you find something more she could be doing. Why not make a promise to yourself that you will start to notice the little things she is doing and slowly and consistently point those out to her over the next few weeks and months.<p>Please try to stop looking at the negatives and start to FIND the good. From here on out never put her down and always try to build her up. The past is the past. Neither one of you can change that, but it only takes one of you to start being nice.<p>I believe you should consider saying you are sorry for your attitude over the weekend and tell her she
has a right to her feelings and thoughts. give her room to express her feelings without fear of disapproval by your answers or actions.<p>Start to act happy around her. Acting happy around others has a magnetic affect on people. Act happy to be with her. You don't have to tell her you love her all the time, but start to really find and point out the things about her that you notice.<p>Seems to me she is trying. Seems to me you are trying. One of you has to put down your weapon and start being the one to be nice to the other. Gentle , quiet, persistent loving with no pressure.<p>When she says you need to be patient, tell her she is right, I do need to be more patient. When you agree with someone who points something out to you, you will find that they will a lot of times then come to your defense.<p>I believe if you continue to want to talk about the relationship and how she feels, and when she is going to be totally in love with you again, this will do more harm than good. Accept it for what it is right now. Act like you are perfectly happy right now. Yea sure, why should you pretend?
Because you will see that it starts to work. Then you start to believe it. Kind of like what you told her about love.<p>If you truly love her and want it to work, then you must stop worrying about her feelings and start and continue to love her because you choose to. Be the man and take charge of this situation.<p>Of course it hurts not to get the love and attention that you want, but by dwelling on that, you are not open to find the good in the things she is doing and the person she is. Try to start looking at it from her perspective at all times.<p>Good luck. You can do it!!!