You both sound like you're on the path the physical abuse(not just SnL, thinker, you too), hurry up and get this divorce done. You're both going to destroy each other, Sheryl wasn't kidding all those times about the"War of the Roses" analogy.

No, Sheryl WASN'T kidding. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

NIKES...know what I mean?
T

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nduli2:
<strong>You both sound like you're on the path the physical abuse(not just SnL, thinker, you too), hurry up and get this divorce done. You're both going to destroy each other, Sheryl wasn't kidding all those times about the"War of the Roses" analogy.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree.

This is not that complicated, I WANT someplace that is safe, where I can say leave me be and have that respected....I did lose it today, I couldn't believe she thought she could just come in and start pawing through my stuff....I only have a couple rooms, a few pitiful belongings, but they are mine...I stood in the door to my "room" she pushed her way in, and I kinda snapped, drug her to the front door, planning to evict her from the premises (since she wouldn't go willingly), we had nice wrestling match, I was winning, then she started screaming, that kinda brought me back to reality, this is insane...so I called the cops instead, we sat around glaring, and trading insults, in the meantime she made a run for the 1 other room I had and started rummaging some more, repossesing a 8 pack of batteries I stole from our house, and some plastic shelves which had a bunch of my telephone gaget stuuf, so I just brought the whole thing over...she demanded it back, claiming I had no right to it, so I dumped it all over the room in a grand idiotic gesture, but felt good. Then she spotted an opening an darted in my bedroom again....not wanting anymore physical altercation I just followed her in and kept taking stuff out of her hands as she pawed through whatever...was a wonderful example of childishness on both our parts...where were the damn police anyways when you need em. <p>In the meantime we had more vigorous discussion which resulted in some spittle going her way, she told me stop, and I lost it again and sent a little more spittle her way...not a proud moment, and I apologize for that thinker...I was outraged, being subjected to a room search like I was small child, or prisoner, who the hell does she think she is anyways. She responded with throwing whatever was at hand, and whacking me in the head with her hand, so guess we evened up on that one. Finally the police showed up, I suddenly realized I could get arrested, that was an eppihany....fortunately thinkers pushing her way in constituted initiation, and turns out I could press charges, which I of course declined, I was just so thankful I wasn't getting arrested. They further explained after finally pinning down thinker that indeed, humble as it may be, this is my home, that she cannot come in without permission, and must leave when asked. But she did make them listen to the whole lurid tale about my whore, and the money I spent, and my illeagle activities with the deposit box, and my bad breath. Yep, it is time, this had gone beyond conflict to true insanity on both our parts, maybe on the other side some kind of healing and recovery can occur, we are about as co-dependent as it is possible to be, and it is seriously messing up both of us, but I guess that is how folks disconnect when they are this dysfunctional. I have learned something in spades though, we all indeed have our own "realities" and we "think" we are communicating when in we really are talking giberish to each other...that gives rise to intense conflict, and general craziness....I never would have believed any of this in a million years.

well, I guess I'm behind... just read thinker's and snl's account of today's events... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ... but I worked on this reply, snl... so here goes... FWIW..<p>ok.... <p>snl - I wanted to comment on some of your points, if I may. If you're still around - and I suspect you are [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . Sorry if I sound tough on some of this. Just trying to get my thoughts across. Please take this with complete respect and concern. by the way.. I see you just posted again... I'll check that out later... <p>snl... 6. I decided to participate in counselling, including being drug to pastors for condemnation, where interestingly the pastors mostly advised her to get off my back, and focus on herself, as did the first marriage counsellor, as has jennifer, and steve, as has almost everyone on the boards. This is not just about me, it is about her too, and I am not responsible (alone) for this mess, and the affair is a miniscule part of it as well.<p>F1 - yes I agree!!! It is quite evident in the "snippet" of your lives that we see here, that Thinker will not get off your back. Kudos to you for going to counselling and getting some things YOU needed. Some WS's don't even do that. I am not blaming THinker for stunting your growth in this quest, but I can see how she might have influenced your journey in a negative way, by continuing to hold the "sex with another woman" over your head. HOWEVER, you have done the same for her, by not expresing remorse, and by not putting in the work to protect and care for her. <p>snl... 8. When that failed to put any real boundary between us, I decided to move out of the house, and I did. We can quibble over how that is being implemented, but I am not a child, and if I don't want to do it exactly like someone else says I should, that is my right...the issue is my w won't negotiate, and her argument is I have to do what steve, or whoever says....newsflash, steve is not my father, nor my keeper, nor does he have to live my life, or will he suffer my consequences. I am a reasonable person, and can be negotiated with, but I will not be dictated to (at least not without a vigorous response on my part to such aggression, those pesky natural consequences you know). <p>F1... a) Did you have an agreement for how/when you were to move out? You say you are reasonable, but why can't you have enough respect for your family to agree on an arrangement and stick to it? You talked pretty strongly against my XH, but at least he has always respected me and any agreements we've had since he moved out (including money, contact, property, etc). b) You're right. you're not a child, and you don't have to do anything anyone tells you to do. hmmmph! now, you feel better? What if THinker gets a court order to keep you away from her, the kids and the house? Will you stay away from her then? Why push her to seek such measures??? Why not just stay away, snl? c) If she won't negotiate with you, then why do you continue to try? Walk away, seek your own attorney, and let the attorneys duke it out.<p>snl... I am getting all the stuff of a lifetime seperated out, and we do BOTH live off a business, as well as have kids, I think a little patience is in order. <p>F1.. I agree. Complicated stuff there. I can't remember all the stuff she was saying happened after her return from the trip. But some of that seemed to be unnecessary to me... seemed to be snl trying to prove that he can "do whatever he wants". no?<p>snl... I still have no idea what she wants or will do. <p>F1... doesn't matter at this point. You've agreed to divorce. <p>snl... She has asked me repeatedly to get a lawywer, I am now convinced that is necessary, and will do so in the next week or so. Proceeding from there, depending on what thinker wants re filing, I will either file, or she can, whichever gives her the greatest advantage, I figure that is only fair, <p>F1... Fair?? Besides a whole nuther disussion we could get into about what's "fair"... ahem... anyway... seems that you 2 cannot agree to anything, much less stick to your agreements. Why does it depend on Thinker? Why do you need her agreement to file? Just do it. One of you needs to. She ain't gonna. I don't think it gives either one a greeater advantage one way or the other. Get the ball rolling. (I hate divorce. Absolutely. But you 2 refuse to get on the same page. You have proven your point that you've been preaching for a year... some marriages are too toxic. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] hmmmm.... wondering if you manifested your own destiny.... ) <p>snl... we can not fix this while married, doubt it can ever be fixed, the programming runs way to deep, the anger way to deep, the dysfunctions far to serious and complex..... but ultimately it always boils down to the same thing, we all do what we want to do, and I don't want to do it anymore, and I won't.<p>F1... a)Glad you corrected yourself. It CAN be fixed. But both people have to be willing to do the work. Neither of you will stop pointing fingers long enough to look in the mirror. But you aren't the only ones. b)Again, I hate divorce, but snl, I would much rather see you make a decision, than remain blowing in the winds of analysis, and waiting for Thinker to do something. <p>snl... All I want at this point is for the madness to stop, to put space between us, and work on our own issues, and if in the future we wish to attempt marital intimacy, fine, no one says we can't..... <p>F1... I agree. I hate to say that there appears only one way to accomplish this at this point.<p>snl... or if we don't, that is fine too, there is no need to be hateful and hurtful, <p>F1... Right. But that's expecting a little much based on all these circumstances. LOTS of pain, anger, and blame between you two. Expect the hurt as par for this course. hatefulness too, I'm afraid.<p>snl... we can be great ex-spouses....<p>F1... ahem.. typical WS comment there, snl. I believe you said to me, why would I want to be friends with someone who treated me like my H did? So I ask you that question... and I would ask THinker the same... Don't expect the "great ex-spouse" thing... I don't see it. Maybe down the road after you have each worked on your issues. <p>snl... I am out of here, I will not be co-dependent anymore...I will not try to make everything right and be guilted/coerced by those around me....I am a good person, I can make good decisions, and I am ok in my own skin. <p>F1... You are right! Yay for making a decision, and being comfortable with it!<p>snl... Thinker has lost all rights and expectations of honesty and cooperation from me because of my perceptions on how those gifts were handled, <p>F1... cmon snl... you said yourself that hatefulness and hurtfulness are not necessary... that you can be great ex-spouses... NOT with THAT attitude! Plan A is for life - for all our personal relationships... "time, patience, care, honesty". She hasn't lost her RIGHTS to those things from you. She's a human being. You are DECIDING to WITH-HOLD those gifts from her from now on. Take responsibility for YOUR dance manuevers. <p>snl: but hopefully she will come to her senses after this is all over, and work on the stuff she should be working on for her own mental health....but whether she does or not, is not my concern, it has to be hers.<p>F1: You are right. You too. With her pain and anger out of your face, you can truly work on YOUR issues. <p>Whenever we read Thinker's posts, every other sentence is about YOU. When we read your posts, every other sentence is about HER. QUIT blaming her. Take responsibility for YOUR decisions, and don't blame her for making you do anything. Quit waiting for her to make a move. By way of example: If YOU file D, if YOU retain your own attorney, its cuz YOU want to. She's not pushing you to it. <p>sheeesh!!! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I HOPE some of that made sense in there...<p>[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]<p>[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

now you are making me crazy faith...ok, not really, just the whole thing is so needless, why do people do this to each other, why do we vest so much in a doggone living arrangement...never mind, I know there is no answer. Regardless of what future we have, thinker and I will be an integral part of who each other is, have kids, and grandkids, and a history, you'd think the least we could do is make the best of that....that is one part I just will never get I guess.... I think one of the reasons I have kind of held on here at the end (or beginning of next phase of our lives, all a matter of perspective, and attitude), is I figure if I just try hard enough thinker will come around, work together on this, and stop being angry...clearly this is a major flaw in my perceptual abilities...why is that, why do I keep thinking life should be rational....this has caused me no end of grief all my life....sigh.<p>anyways faith, will comment more later on some of your stuff, I have apt thursday with lawyer, told thinker so, see how this all works I guess...she says she is ready, I dunno, she also told me today she might shoot me...so who knows, lets just say future is not yet quite clear....those natural consequences can really bite sometimes, I am hoping is just another way of telling me I am pondscum.

I have to agree with Resilient that when you move into your own place, you use your own shower and get your own food... Might as well get used to the new lifestyle of being single again as soon as possible.<p>Maybe set up regular visitation with the kids since they are mostly all grown up. Get your stuff out of the house asap, avoid confrontations, just go your separate ways. You give each other ammunition instead of the peace you both need to find inside of yourselves.<p>Give thinker her share of the business, or whatever, and just get on with seeking a peaceful life for yourselves... in your own place & space.

As far as being in your own place totally, didn't happen, won't happen cause WH states he will do it his way, and only his way. The episode of the spit was more than he expressed, he throated and spat a good amount on my face and after said there you deserve this. The issue was the safe deposit box and wanting the right key. I did ask nicely, and therefore he took his stand right away, with control. Yes, I was upset by the safe deposit episode, and WH knowing what was written on the card and knowing 2 people, with 2 identifications needed to be there. It was with maliscous action and he does not feel any remorse or guilt about it even as I write. He justifies his action, as you can see written. <p>As far as dragging me, there is a big weight difference 290/120# issue. He grapped my R arm which has 3 surgeries and now I am feeling pain and numbness. Going to call the Dr. to see when I can get in. WH seems to think this was all my fault, not taking any blame for his actions of going against the issue of safedeposit box and telling me he will do what he wants when he wants. <p>As far as wanting his own space and leave him alone. I have, no respect for me there. Haven't been there in quite a while, did have the kids send a couple of meals to his place, one of the kids took them over. But I haven't been given the same respect. He goes through things here, been here and didn't get ahold of me. I could be outside and he will come over. Says, he called but I didn't answer. If I don't answer then don't come over. I asked him to not go into my bedroom while I was gone, that was where the papers were, the keys to the safe deposit box, and found he filtered through some of my papers. Cause they were not as I had put them. Also, took my computer, changed my chair by my computer desk. I have a better chair supposedly. Haven't sat in it, cause no computer up in the room. So as far as cooperating and showing respect to me, hasn't been done, and now the police tell me I have to stay away from his facilities but he is allowed here. BS's get the raw deal all the way to the end. <p>As far as WH getting professional help, he saw a counselor, but what I was told from a professional and someone else, they feel WH is in need of psychological help. The counselor WH saw was not a professional, low dollar guy, and didn't take notes, or record visits, no plan initiated, just fulfilled WH need for phylosophying. That is why I quit going, didn't seem to have a plan, we just chitchatted. Also, ask WH, he had the guy evaluate WH to see what type of person he was. More evidence of how the sessions went. Who I am seeing now is a professional, but costs more than twice of the other. Gave me insights on how to find a good counselor, I already knew some from talking to friends and family what a professional counselor does during the session and this guy WH and I saw didn't do these things. He was there for talk, and no plan. WH seems to like the sitting there and hassing things out, and no plan on record. Have asked WH to see a professional, stated to me he is fine the way he is. <p>This is not all my fault as it seems to be stated. Yes, I did go to his house knowing he didn't want me there, but I just wanted the right key. Yes, WH is here almost every day. Eats food here, has washed his clothes here, dried his clothes here, uses the shower here, and took towels that I wished he would of asked me which ones he could take. I would of gladly given him the ones that don't match. Found he has one of the green ones that goes in the downstairs bathroom, will ask for that one and give him a different one. He also, doesn't ask if it is okay to take this or that. I have asked him politely lets go through the things that he wants and negotiate on what he can and should not take. If we both feel the same about a item, lets set it in a box, and decide later. <p>WH has not been good at his end about staying away. When he comes over it feels like he is a king and takes whatever he wants. He fixes himself toast, and looks in the refrigerator. Says he paid for all this. Yesterday, he helped himself to pop that was in the refrigerator on the porch. Didn't ask, just helped himself. <p>We will see what his lawyer says, and move on from there. Yes, we both need psychological help, both come from childhoods that have ingrained some very bad issues. What hurts too, is WH calls his mother crazy, and it hurts to see the pain she is in. She just got her Zoloft increased again. The issue of the house that WH is living in should of been rennovated and done for MIL to move in and decorate and live her last 20 years or more in comfort. She is on pin an needles at the place she is at, which was bought out and been given letters to get out. Now she is waiting for the eviction notice. Since the affair with the OW, things have not been getting done on a regular basis. WH does good for a few weeks, to maybe a couple of months and then things come to a dead stop. Which is where it is now. I have a lot of compassion for her, and it is so sad to hear WH speak of his mother with disrespect. SHes a good woman with many issues, and I listen to her, as she listens to me. <p>ANyways, that is where we are at. Wish WH would say I have been good about not going to his place and leaving him alone. Not the same here, and will have to deal with that. <p>Thanks for listening, and hope God puts me out of this misery and gets rid of this pain in my arm and back. WH and I are both psychologically messed up and both need professional help.

For several days I have sworn that I wasn't going to involve myself in this war but here I am. SNL I have always had respect for your opinions but this decision you have made, to destroy your W, sucks. There is no other word to describe it. It is reprehensible.<p>How on earth could you spit in her face? If you don't love her, if you don't want to repair your marriage then leave her alone. Allow her to heal and maintain your dignity. There is NO dignity in what you did. All else aside this woman is the mother of your children.<p>I once read something that touched me. "The best gift a man can give his children is to love and respect their mother". So you say you can't love her. You say you don't love her, then at the very least show some respect for her. <p>Spitting in her face is the action of a man out of control and I am appalled by it. Please, please, please get yourself together and allow her some peace.

They're both out of control TD, as much as it pains me to admit it as a former BS, I can almost empathize with SnL's feelings. Being hounded day and night is hard(I did the hounding my relationship and WS reacted almost the same) and the reaction is going to be that of a trapped animal, no rational thought just biting.<p> The only solution I can see is get lawyers, hire a mediator. Buy a mini fridge and a hot plate for the house SnL lives in so he need not go back home as much(if he can find a laundrymat he may not have to go home at all) Tell the children what's going on and if they need him to call or come to his place. And he and Thinker do not deal with each other at all, let the lawyers and mediators do the talking.<p> Someone is bound to get injured in this situation. The face spitting, the threat of shooting SnL, it's so very apparent that this is sliding into the point of no return. No plan A, no Plan b, no more encouraging either to follow MB plans(hasn't happened in over a year, won't happen now) both need to cut the cord completely and get the hell away from each other.<p> For the record, I don't believe that SnL has been in contact with the OW all this time. I'm pretty convinced that looking for her shows that he's feeling lonely, desperate and scared and most likely wants a sympathetic ear. We all take our turns on this board beating up the WS, but honestly this divorce situation is a frightening time for all and if your BS is in the throws of irrational behavior looking for a life preserver in any form is normal. I think planting the idea that SnL has been lying all this time about no contact with the OW is going to damage Thinker more than anything else and is a disservice to her. I mean, if he were in contact with her all along would he need to search for her? Just MHO.<p> I really wish you two would work out a way to cut contact completely, at least for a few months until the divorce is final or you both calm down. This is really scary.<p>Oh and before any says that I'm beating up on Thinker. I was a BS too and I acted a lot like her. I regret it now and I made our divorce a lot more painful and angry than it had to be. She will wake up from her fog too at some point and feel a lot of regret about her actions.<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</p>

td, I explained what happened with the spittle, it is as I said, she was violating me, now I know why people say burglary feels like rape...she came into my home, acted like the queen of sheeba, and could do whatever she wanted, refused to leave, refused to stay out of my stuff, made numerous disgusting comments about me, told me I should be dead, said maybe she would shoot me, and so forth and so on..... I try my hardest not to be pulled into these diatribes, but I failed (she is an expert at pushing my buttons, from years of practice)...in my outrage and rebuttal some spittle went her way, and she told me to quit spitting on her....so in a momement of rage at her being there violating me, I spewed a little more, but deliberately...frankly at that moment I hated her guts. If you think that makes me a terrible person, ok....but you (nor any of you) have any idea what I have to deal with everyday, and I am human too, not a punching bag. I told her I was sorry, and I said so here too....all I want to do is hang on long enough to get a divorce over, maybe then she will leave me alone, and quit persecuting me, somehow I doubt it. I realize ws are pondscum, and not to be treated as human beings, and supposed to accept everything thrown at us by unhappy bs....but ya know what, we are people too.<p>btw, her rendition of the spittle is not true, since I was the spitter, I guess I know what I did or did not do....and most of the stuff thinker writes is embellished and vigorously spun to make me appear some kind of abusive monster...she rarely states accurately the instigating role she plays in these instances.... for example she regularly says disgusting sexual things about my affair in earshot of the kids...literally dozens of times, despite repeated requests not to do so, I am defenseless to these things as she systematically seeks to destroy my character with whoever will listen (not just the kids)...she gratuitiously rails on about my whore, and my sexually perverted person to whoever will listen....she regularly makes accusations she has no evidence for, she regularly tells me I am worthless, and so on, and so on....how much of this could you take tiny without some sort of primal defensive response? I live this 24/7, every conversation about anything ends up in a diatribe against me, how I have destroyed her life, etc. etc....no mention of how screwed up the marriage was before the affair, or her role in that, just all about her, no effort to negotiate a seperation that works for us both....that would give me rights, and I am pondscum, I have no rights...so I make do as best I can.<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Just for the record Nduli is the most accurate voice here (re figuring this out), and I do appreciate her admitting she abused her ws also...frankly I hate the way I respond, and I do try to get thinker to leave me be, go away when it gets bad, but she won't she just keeps coming at me....the conversations are about nothing constructive, they are diatribes, verbal punching. And yep, why would I try to find ow if I was already talking to her, more nonsensical ws bashing. However, at this point we are seperated?starting divorce, and I am an adult, so I suppose I could contact if I wanted to anyways, no concern of thinkers...she told me last week she had a date lined up for this weekend, so what does that mean? In any event sooner or later the ow will have to be contacted re std's testing (something thinker reasonably requires), and I suppose I do wonder how it has gone for her, misery loves company I guess....but she lives 2000 miles away, and I (nor her) don't travel, so not even really much of an issue anyways....the issue is the marriage and that is the only thing we don't talk about...how to amicably resolve our issues.

SNL I have never called any WS including mine, pondscum. Nor have I felt that way about them. I believe MOST WS are victims of the society in which we live.<p>That said, the only thing that matters here and now, where this situation has taken the two of you, is your health and sanity and that of your children.<p>I don't know how old your children are, I'm assuming teenagers, but children of any age should not have to witness this breaking down of human beings that you and thinker are doing. Pull back. Hire an attorney. Change your phone number. Do WHATEVER it takes to stop this now.<p>I watched 2 of my friends do this to each other and it wasn't pleasant to see. Don't allow this to turn you into an evil person full of rage. If something or someone pushes your buttons then get away from it. <p>I do understand that everyone has a breaking point and you have reached your's. You know it too I think. So now do what is right - right for you at this point in your life. Stop this before something bad happens. Stop it before someone gets hurt. Stop it before your children are destroyed. Do whatever it takes to end contact and do it today. <p>You have given me wonderful advice in the past and I have always respected your views. Please, please take your own advice and don't continue down this path of destruction.

TD, when you're dealing with someone bent on changing the situation(getting the marriage back together) it can be hard not to be consumed by hate.<p> My own situation ended when after a long night of crying(me) and yelling(him) he took a knife from the kitchen sink, handed it to me and said "if you hate me so much go ahead and stab me in the f'ing chest". At that point I backed away, walked out, spent the night in my car, came back the next day, packed a bag, gave him a big hug(at this point he broke down himself) told him I was sorry and maybe we would see each other again and left. We never saw each other again, but the pain and bitterness remained until I and he healed. We spoke again recently about our personal lives. Mine is going very well and his is not. Partly due to mental illness(he has clinical depression), the OW doing a number on him and his own overwhelming guilt. Now I feel the pain of guilt too for how it went and wish I could extend a hand of friendship to him in this tough time(not to reconcile as I see our relationship was dysfunctional) but that can no longer be. The history built during our recovery attempt/seperation/divorce is too raw and can't be mended.
Thinker is doing the same thing here and she too will regret it when they can't attend holidays together with the children or speak without bile. I garuntee she will feel some guilt over this.
SnL is not a monster, I wish my WS would have shown me as much understanding and extended as much financial help to me in our situation. He has said over and over that he doesn't want to leave her with nothing and I believe it. But now with the ante upped so high and so many horrible feelings going around being generous is going to be hard, especially if she is going to "punish" him at every turn. Usually people don't cotton well to being treated like property, Thinker treats him so, the incident last night shows that. Holding onto the affair papers shows that, calling him a man of the devil shows that.
Every BS has been where she is, we all had our fair share of pain and feelings of abandonment. It is part of being alive and loving another person with free will. Because someone lets us down does not give us the right to beat them up mentally, physically and emotionally and to expect them not to return the favor is rediculous. We get what we give and I firmly believe that their divorce could've been a humane and caring one if both had allowed it. Divorce need not be fraught with acrimony and I learned it the hard way. So too it seems will SnL and Thinker.<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</p>

Thanks tiny, did not mean to imply you think ill of ws, was just a general comment from the ws side of the plate.....kids are 16-23, and not good for them, they have asked repeatedly the diatribes stop, to little avail....I wish we could just flip a switch and completely disconnect, but it does take some effort, and the business (how we all eat, including kids) is the major point of interaction....I cannot comprehend how regardless of mental/emotional state we cannot cooperate economically...pretty much this is all up to thinker, amount of contact allowed, I am ok with most any arrangement re minimal access to my home, and my stuff there...or a reasonable time to try and make other arrangements (and I don't mean a hurried stuffing of everything in storage...I do not deserve the bums rush, and I am not a criminal, or deadbeat being evicted, but that is how I am treated), and I don't know what to do about the business, there is no easy solution. This puzzles me too, thinkers primary complaint re divorce is she will be impoverished, you would think she would be doing everything to keep us both relatively calm, and productive, but alas, that is not happening.<p>Anyways I woild give the same advice you are, get new boundaries established by divorce, each do their own work (badly needed) and let the future unfold as it will...provide for thinkers welfare, and try to recover from this toxic co-dependentcy that dogs us. But it is easier to give advice than take it, I guess I should have started this (for both our sakes) a while back, but I am not perfect, and had trouble disconnecting too...but is time, thinker agrees as well, so hopefully all this difficulty for us is just part of what people go through, and will get better. I have apt with lawyer for thursday, and will see how to proceed....personally I just wanted to mediate, and not waste money, but thinker has vetoed that.

i have been reading both the posts and it just sickens me to know that they are BOTH influencing the children in such a negative way. whether it be by actions, conscious or otherwise, or words, you should both be ashamed of yourselves.<p>snl you have replied to my threads a number of times. some good, some not so good, but all your honest opinion, which i asked for. through it all you seemed like a very intelligent person, i just dont get the games. you can claim defense all you want but i have been in thinkers shoes- you could be my ex-husband. and the word games suck. grow up and start protecting your children. you may suck as a husband, but those kids are innocent-and i dont care if they are young or older. grow up and start being the father they need.<p>now, on to you thinker. please dont think i am siding with you, i am not. i am just as appalled at your behavior. you are a grown person, start acting like it. you need to grow up and start putting your kids well being ahead of your own hurt feelings. if you dont like the poor me bit, stop doing it. if you dont like snl's behavior, divorce him. stop complainning about it. he devasted you- we have all been there, we know how it feels. find a way for your own mental health to let go of your anger. its not gonna change anything. bashing him over and over is not gonna change him. as an adult you have other options-in all situations.<p>the funny thing is i keep reading all this... i left before to take a break and put on tv-jerry springer was on-i swear you two could have been the guest!!! that alone should scare you into being adults.<p>for everyone else reading-im sorry this sounds harsh, not me usually. i just cant stand that this is going on in front of kids.

Wow... I usually try to stay out of these threads because I haven't been around long enough (I felt like) to really contribute. When I read your posts though, it reminds me of my dad and my mom. My mom always always always badmouthed my dad when they began divorcing, and did so until she was diagnosed with cancer. Amazingly he stood by her more than her H at the time did. It was then that she realized she had wasted so much time being mad at him, because the really were just not meant to be married. She really began to doubt the way she had felt about him all those years. I wish she could have let go of some of the anger, and not let it destroy her so much. I can't say how I'd feel in her situation, but I don't think I'd be like that.<p>She would badmouth him to anyone who would listen. It drove me and my sisters crazy. He had left her for another woman also, but more than anything he left her because they had been unhappy for so terribly long. Their marriage was never good, I was old enough to see that (17). He didn't marry the OW, they eventually split up after living together for some time. <p>Sometimes people struggle so hard to hold onto a relationship that is way beyond saving, and it's really sad when only one side is trying so hard they are becoming a lunatic, not their normal self at all.<p>I really hope thinker is able to let go of some of this anger, and begin to take care of herself. I know she is hurting right now, and I bet feels like she has failed in some way. Maybe in time that pain and anger will lessen. She also has to realize the fact that what she is doing right now is only pushing you further away. <p>I know there are two sides to every story, and I don't want thinker to think I am taking your side SNL. I would love to see her take care of herself some, and not worry about trying to mold you into what she wants. You see right thru this, and you will keep resisting it. She will only cause herself more heartache.

Snl has been trying to contact the OW, spits in thinker's face...<p>Thinker is going insane because she thinks there's still contact, can't prove it (until now), and is so emeshed into snl that she can't function without him.<p>I have personally gone back and forth on the understanding-meter. First I felt for thinker because snl is such a pain in the a$$ and how can you argue with that. Then I felt for snl because thinker is clearly losing it, and I could picture someone slapping her in the face, like in the movies, to get her to STOP.<p>Now, after all the crap on this thread, as well as others, I have come to a new conclusion. YOUR KIDS. Oh my GOD! What must they be thinking?<p>I don't give a $hit who's fault is what - for Christ's sake look (and listen) to what you have become! <p>This is no longer a "safe" thread for snl and it surely isn't a safe place anywhere on this board for either of you. This is a public board - there's no safe place. Anyone can post anywhere, and with very few restrictions. I've come to realize it (yeah, I'm dense sometimes) and you should too!