<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by lupolady:
<strong><p>[qb]
Microwave, kiddie pool, sleeping bag under a bridge, brush your DAM teeth in the toilet! Anything is better than this. BOTH of you: CHANGE THE LOCKS OF THE PLACE YOU ARE LIVING IN.
Keep the other out of your personal space. Stay the HELL out of each others' personal space.<p>[/b]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
you da' man, lady! *clap clap*

Thinker, if you are reading on this thread, please respect some of our suggestions to stay off this thread. please??? Please continue posting - but not on here, and not to "correct" snl. You know we are here for both of you, but you need to each stay in your "own yard" (that's what I tell my folks here at work) [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>Several people have asked you questions on here. please answer them on your thread. k? Pretty please????<p>I think this is very eloquent. Posted by Orchid on Thinker's thread:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Dear Thinker,
One more time......stay off of the other thread. If SNL posts there, leave him be. WE can see what he is saying. If he wants to paint the sky pink, let him. If he says white is black and black is white, let him. We will formulate our own opinions. Don't worry, there are many qualified' BS' out here. <p>Well watch out for him. K? Right now you need to simmer down a bit and breathe. Refocus your anger into something more constructive. You have children who really need you right now. Their dad has abandoned them and they need to know how to help you help them and visa versa. K? <p>My offer still stands. e-mail me as needed. You gotta stay away and let SNL have his say out there. Don't follow his posts around. You can post but please post about how Thinker will get better, ask for suggestions on helping thinker. <p>Don't worry about SNL's recovery. He is nowheres near recovery. He is still trying to figure out where he will do his next load of laundry. That is really a challenge for him right now and I am not even being sarcastic. That is easy for you but a challenge for him. On the other hand you have your challenges that are easy for him. You now have your plate full. Stop trying to fill up his plate. K?<p>L.
<hr></blockquote>

This may help...... Thinker, when someone posts a question or thought on this thread that you wish to answer, answer it on your thread. U can pretty much count on the fact that those reading/posting to this thread are reading yours as well. <p>If a few slip by, don't worry. K? I want to make this as safe and simple as possible for the both of U. <p>I will be posting a separate thought laters..... something I think we all need to think about and it will be on a new thread. Please read it, both of U. K? <p>Thanks,
L.

My login seems to have been messed up...or I have been somehow restricted, but have no emails from admin re being banned etc. so assume it was just corrupted until further notice....or else I somehow have forgotten my login stuff, my comp is temporarily broke, and the login was pretty much automated, so I went to the library....and have to do it manually.<p>Anyways thanks again for all your efforts, I understand the bias toward bs, and what bs wants...as opposed to what is necessarily healthy for both....I don't really expect to particularly well-thought of here.<p>Re the date thing for thinker, she revealed today was just some plans with a lady friend...I asked her why told me last week she had a "date" this week and wouldn't say with who....this is not about being angry or anything, just perplexed, how is this helpful? Similarly the whole mini-affair thing with the guy dave at physical therapy, and last year the threats to go to a prostitute when she was pressuring me for sex....it is simplistic to just write all this stuff (as well as anger, and on-going verbal abuse) off as just an upset bs....how we behave under extreme stress is very revealing about who we are...it is this sort of thing, and much more that convinced me we are not healthy for each other as marital partners....if this is where we go (her behaviour, and my inappropriate stuff too) then clearly we are not functional enough to be married, and should use the time post-divorce to work on ourselves, without the added stress of marital expectations....this is clearly making us both crazy.<p>Can't respond to all, and is pretty much related, but bunky seems to have his nose out of joint, so will try to cover my stuff in response to him.<p>bunky...but not immature at all...
LMAO. Having sex outside of marriage is not immature? <p>snl...Not particularly, although it could be. How about you, any premarital sex of any kind? But you weren't married then you say...I say so what, behaviour is behaviour...it is boundaries you are talking about here, so inappropriate and ill-advised are the correct terms...this is a difficult medium people lose track of the facts...let me remind you I was in an estranged marriage, simply co-habitating, with a standing offer for divorce on the table from my w....I have lived in a cocoon my adult life, my w being my only adult relationship, and faithful for 23 years...what I didn't know was what being emotionally vulnerable meant....my actions were not immature, they were the actions people take when they bond....the timing was the problem, I should have divorced first...I understand that now.<p>bunky...That certainly is a new one for me. An affiar is selfish behavior. <p>snl...So is marriage, most people when asked why they want to be married, answer cause the other person makes me happy...that is the wrong reason bts. Affairs are identical to marriage, they use the same wiring that got us married in the first place.<p>bunky...It is chosing to do what you want in spite of the pain you would cause another. it is completely immature. You cannot rationalize you way out of that one.<p>snl...There is absolutely no doubt in my mind you have made choices that hurt others, even choices you knew were against anothers wishes, yet you did them anyways...that is what people do...you imply an affair was about hurting the bs, it is not, an affair rarely has anything to do with the bs...the bs is hurt cause of their expectaions, the pain is their own, as is any emotional pain for any of us, that is what being responsible for self means....no one can "make" you happy, and no one can "make" you hurt...it is all about choices...however, most of us recognize that we can contribute to, or mitigate anothers emotional pain...and most of us allow the expectation of fidelity in marriage to be a binder on the spouses choices, so when we choose the behaviour that leads to a bs choosing to experience "pain" we expect a ws to make some kind of ammends, and many do, I have....but oft times the bs expects more than is reasonable, and conflict ensues...ultimately bunky no owns another, none of us are anyones property...I think I have made sufficient ammends.<p>....I lived with this marriage/relationship for 30 years, I think I paid my dues....<p>bunky...Paid your dues? Is marriage a membership? So because you have been married for a certainly number of days, it qualifies you to have sex outside of marriage?<p>snl...I will ignore this juvenille response, I suspect you knew what I meant by the commonly used saying.<p>bunky...Thinking marriage is about paying "dues" is an immature understanding of committment, love, respect, fidelity, and compassion for other human beings. For as smart as you appear to be, sometimes you have a serious lack of emotional intelligence and maturity.<p>snl...I suspect I understand all these issues as well as anyone, it is my conclusions that folks take issue with on occassion....bottom line is I do not beleive marital intimacy should be based on committment, that reduces it to a contractural arrangement, and I perfer marriage to include an equally important psychological component. But to each their own. If you are concerned re my understanding of these issues feel free to quiz me, I will respond...but let me ask you a question...your w tells you she does not want to be married to you, but will honor her committment if you hold her to it....is that an acceptable marriage to you?<p>bunky...Then stop complaining and act. Ethier change the way the two of you relate (by starting with your own behavior) or get out of the marriage. The solution is that simple.<p>snl.... Not so simple, if one wants to do these things in a responsible manner, you did say not to be selfish didn't you? So I did so, explored all of these issues as best I could while being radically honest re my thoughts, and feelings...but I have been routinely castigated for those actions, primarily cause they led to outcomes not on many peoples agendas...so much for radical honesty huh? In any event, we have arrived at the divorce stage, and so it will be in due time...I had hoped to do this amicably and with caring, but is not to be it seems....It is apparently important to thinker I be punished for living my life as I see fit....which is what she does, you do, and everyone does....folks (and thinker) may not like my choices, but that does not mean they should not be respected as my choices....to do otherwise is simply about coercing and manipulating me to make choices someone else wants me to make...is that what I should do? Let someone, anyone, dictate my life...is that what you do bunky, who dictates your life?<p>...snl quote...you gleaned correctly, had nothing to do with sex, but that is all I hear day in and day out, dirty rotten whore, and how upset thinker is, we never talk about me, only her...she doesn't understand me at all.<p>Bunky...Then perhaps it is time for you to stop being so selfishly concerned with you. <p>snl...If one is not concerned with themself, who will be? You seem to be preoccupied with the selfish card bunky, aren't you selfishly posting here what you think and trying to persuade me to behave in ways you think appropriate? We are all selfish, thinker selfishly wants me to behave in ways she thinks H should, so she can be happy, and get her needs met...do you plan to chastise her for being selfish?<p>Bunky...It is your behavior that created this mess. <p>snl...No it isn't, I am not responsible for a single choice thinker makes, she is...and her behaviour is not acceptable...she has the same right to decide about me, and stay or go to, she chose to stay, as did I, for a time....no one made either of us do that. And we are both completely responsible for all our subsequent behaviour, that I had an affair is irrelevant.<p>bunky...She did not make you have an affair. She did not make you have sex with another woman. <p>snl..Never said she did, and indeed recognizing the provocation that represents, I have accepted a tremendous amount of abuse...does it never end? Or only when I behave as desired? If so, isn't that coercion? Is that ok with you?<p>bunky...Put your own complaints aside for awile and deal with hers. Your's can wait. Once the affair is dealt with, then the two of you can address the issues that may have lead you to feel the desire to betray your marriage.<p>snl...I have, we are at impasse re the affair, she will not let it go, I will not let it be a weapon, or tool of coercion, hence my lack of "remorse".<p>bunky...Seek first to understand, SNL.<p>snl...I do, and quite well I think, worked very hard at understanding, and am comfortable I do.<p>bunky...And what is this nonsense about contacting the OW asking her to get tested? Have you been trying to contact her at all? Is this more selfish behavior on your part?<p>snl...Library closing, will edit this part later..

Snl & Think if you are reading,<p>Please think of what you are doing to your kids. Your youngest child is at very vunerable age.<p>Snl, I know you remember some of my story. You know how horrible my life was a yr ago, how out of control my OS was. His father & I were killing him. He told his dad he rather we had divorced than put him through living with the both of us. We didn't fight, we were very civil but OS knew how miserable we both were. Everytime OS caught me crying, I would tell him nothing was the matter but he knew.<p>Now OS would tell you that nothing we did was effecting him, that Singapore was the best time of his life but if his father & I had stayed there together I doubt my OS would be alive today.<p>He is not the Christian young man he was raiesed. He hardly resembles the almost 15 yr old who found out about his dad's A. He had the very foundation of his life pulled from under him, but what hurt him the most was the day to day living with his parents who were so unhappy. He could not handle it & chose to act out. <p>The 2 of you need to have as little contact with each other as possible before one of you breaks & does something that may hurt the two of you &

Sometimes in life you have to skip emotion and deal in facts.<p>Fact: SNL had an A
Fact: SNL has no remorse
Fact: SNL is only human
Fact: Thinker is hurt
Fact: Thinker has a lot of anger
Fact: Thinker is only human<p>There are so many facts in their story that are plain to see but there are many, many more that we know nothing about. We are all reading only typed dialog of the view as seen by each of them. I won't condemn either of them because like both of them and all of you, I, too, am only human. It's not our place to judge. I'll save that judgment for a higher power to deal with.<p>As I stated before I think the time has come for them to end this war. Sometimes there is no solution and no way to reconcile. This is when people must step back and see that the relationship is no longer healthy and make moves to end it. <p>Affairs suck, divorce sucks, dividing a family sucks, but even more so and the biggest point - destroying another person sucks. SNL and Thinker you are on a path to destroy each other. You are both to blame. You both contributed to the demise of this marriage and now you must both allow it to end. It would be best if it could be done in peace but I don't see how that could happen. It seems the only way you can find peace will be separately, so do it. Stay away from each other. Make moves to end this constant strife that is hurting your children (whether you believe it or not) and decide, today, that no contact is the only viable option at this point in time.<p>I wish you both peace and I hope you find it soon and I'll be praying for both of you and your children. Look inside yourselves for the strength to do what is right.

SNL:
Let me get this straight. You live somewhere else. That's your personal space. You attack your wife for invading it - with spitting, etc. <p>But you invade her space - the space you are not supposed to be in anymore due to separation and pending divorce. And she's not supposed to be angry or upset about that...
because it's a business location too<p>Logic TWISTED to meet your ends and your needs alone. Thinker gets no needs met.<p>Accept it. Your business is DONE. Cooked. Burned. Screwed. Give it up. Get a job working for Lennox. Bryant. Whatever. But you screwed the self employment by not considering anybody else's needs but your own. <p>It's a heavy price to pay. But Thinker is now a bloodless turnip. She's been used up. <p>Get your business out of the house; do your own bookkeeping, billing, etc. and deal with it. Stay out of her space!!!!!

The big problem KaylaAndy is that the business supports everyone in their household, telling him that's it's kaput is kind of dooming them to bills not getting paid and food not being bought no?<p> It's all very well and good for everyone to suggest he get a job elsewhere, but what about Thinker. She would have to find new employment too and she's "disabled" in her right arm. She relies on the business as much as SnL. <p> Personally, I think he should either get one of his kids or an outside person to take Thinker's duties. Set up a separation agreement which includes a monthly or weekly payment to her for her expenses. Get her out of the business but keep it going, moving all operations out of her house.<p> I don't think he should have to throw away his business. I had to give up mine because of my divorce and let me tell you, I'm still rebuilding all those client contacts after all this time. Why should a hard won goal like this be thrown away? Because of emotions? <p> It would be nice if everything could be handled in a calm, rational manner. Everyone still needs to eat and pay bills after all. Just get Thinker out of the business for now, after all should he quit, what is she going to do for support, she hasn't held a job in many years.

Hi SNL,<p>I've given my 2 cents before, so I won't repeat it. Just wanted to offer some support and a cyber-hug.....Even those of us who are strong need one occasionally! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hope you're able to get what you need to live on after the divorce. Don't let guilt keep you from taking care of your own needs while also ensuring that your family is completely taken care of. In other words, put them first, but don't forget about SNL. <p>Finally, I'm wishing you a happy and fulfilling future. You deserve it and so does Thinker. <p>God Bless.

Nduli! You have so much common sense. I'm sure it's more than you need, so can I have some of it.

Something tells me that SnL is sorry for hurting the other people that have been hurt in this situation.<p>Something tells me that SnL will not express this because he does not have a "safe" place in which to express his remorse. Every admission of fault becomes a weapon to be used against him...so why would he want to make himself any more vulnerable than he has to...<p>Just a thought...<p>[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ALady:
<strong>Nduli! You have so much common sense. I'm sure it's more than you need, so can I have some of it.</strong><hr></blockquote><p> Sure, my mama beat a bunch of it into me when I was little urchin, I'm sure I can spare some. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</p>

I am shaking and in tears. My stomach feels as if it is going to violently empty itself against my will. This is making me S-I-C-K.<p>I comprehend that SNL and Thinker's situation is not about me at all. How ridiculously silly of me to personalize this. But there is something inside of me that is screaming. I can't even read all of the posts on this thread. I believe I got to page 3 and halfway through I had to stop.<p>SNL and Thinker: you two could be my parents. My father is the poor downtrodden "I've endured and endured and I can't endure no more" abused martyr of a cheater and my mother is the "I'm not doing anything wrong afterall, HE cheated" acting anyway the emotional wind blows and ABUSING my father.<p>I wish the two of you would stop for just a moment and think about your children. Thinker, my mother confides in me EVERYTHING she can think of about my father.....right down to his whore and his lack of sexual function. I am pleading with you......if what SNL is saying is true, that you make comments to him within hearing distance of your children.....please STOP doing this. Sure it serves your purpose of making him look bad in your children's eyes. But do you really understand what you are doing to your children? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOUR CHILDREN???????? This is completely unnecessary and quite damaging to them, their egos, their perceptions AND their REALITIES. Stop doing this. This is NOT all about you and SNL. You have to be a grown up and a parent and do what is right by your children in the face of diversity. You don't know what it feels like to have to hear about your father's whore....and hear it over and over and over and over and over again. I wish my mother would just shut the h#ll up about it because anyone with one eye and half a brain can see that there is WAAAAAAY more going on than him dropping his pants and grunting with some floosy. But to hear my mother tell it, HE's at fault. HE's the one in the wrong. The fact of the matter is this......I think he is a low-down sick twisted S.O.B.......but he's still my father and I don't need her mucking up my perceptions of him while waging her own personal vendetta. He can do that just fine on his own. VERY SELFISH on her part and I can promise you, I can see right through it. I resent her tremendously for it. I am pleading with you, for the sake of your children....STOP doing this. I don't care how old they are and I don't care how grown they are. It doesn't matter. I'm 29 and I have been dealing with this for the last two years. It's been the hardest thing I've ever been through besides dealing with my own adultery and marriage.<p>You think I don't see what my father has lived with all these years? But you know what I say to that? He chose to do it. He's a grown man (although that is questionalbe) and he made a CHOICE to stay married to my mother. <p>It doesn't MATTER who is right and who is wrong. Who cheated and who didn't. How long have you two been married? 30 years? 20 years? And he's all at fault because he cheated? I don't think so. Trying to shift the whole of this problem onto SNL and his control issues, selfishness and infidelity is maybe a way for you to keep from looking to closely at yourself. Maybe? This very toxic situation goes way beyond infidelity....and deep down you know it. This toxic situation goes way beyond SNL and his control issues. His control issues are no worse than yours. Period. (this is from what I have read from and of the two of you so far) <p>Now, saying all of that. <p>SNL: Do YOU have any idea what YOU are doing to your children? This whole "I'm not going to be abused anymore so I'm going to take my independence to the extreme" attitude is just sickening to me. It's as destructive and misplaced as Thinker pointing her finger at you. Nobody made you stay. You are not a martyr in this marriage. You contributed to this situation and taking your frustrations out on Thinker for your own decision to stay in the marriage and put up with it is just as bad/sad as her taking hers out on you. <p>I've seen my father pull a loaded pistol right in my mother's face and ask her if she believed he would "blow her G.D. brains out". He's pushed her down and broken her tailbone. He's choked her to unconciousness. Get a grip on yourself and be an adult and handle this situation in a way that your children can admire and respect you. Spitting in their mother's face is not the way to do this. Treat her ALWAYS and as if your children are right there. (You too, thinker, treat SNL as if your children are there and that you care about how your actions affect them). Not for your sakes (although I do believe both of you deserve this simply because y'all are human) but for your children's sake. Can you stop thinking selfishly long enough to consider that anything you do to her or anything she does to you AFFECTS YOUR CHILDREN???????????<p>Do you two want your actions to teach your children how to handle a marriage, the problems in it, and possibly it's demise? There is no way for me to express HOW VERY IMPORTANT your characters and actions will mold them and how they handle problems. I know the two of you don't want them to have to start from SCRATCH, completely UN-LEARN everything you have taught them, being completely and totally exasperated and confused from not knowing the CORRECT or even a remotely positive EFFECTIVE way to deal with life, and then search for the right way because NO ONE EVER CONSIDERED OR CARED LONG ENOUGH OR HARD ENOUGH ABOUT THEM TO TEACH THEM BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T STOP THINKING ABOUT THEMSELVES.<p>SNL, the sooner you realize that YOU are a major factor in the way you were treated the better. You allowed it from the get go. Nobody made you do anything EVEN from the very beginning. YOU alone are responsible for the treatment you ACCEPTED....so stop with this "I'm not going to be abused anymore" mentatlity and get down to accepting the fact that you have created just as much of this situation as Thinker because YOU have shown her all this time that YOU accepted her behavior. And now you want to bully her into treating you differently? You can't change overnight and neither can Thinker. Stop standing in a corner and pouting and pointing fingers. Both of you stop this.<p>Granted, I didn't offer anything in this post in the way of helping you two. That is not where my thoughts are. My thoughts and prayers are with your children.<p>I happened to be there for my parent's D-Day. I made the comment to them both "EVERYTHING you do affects us no matter our age". They've chosen ONCE AGAIN not to consider the FAMILY UNIT they created. It's an ongoing thing. <p>My father has never once apologized to any of us for so flippantly, selfishly and callously disrespecting our family and our mother. My mother has never once apologized for her role in this situation. Some may say "It's their marriage and none of your business".......and they are right. Their marriage is none of our business.......BUT the FAMILY....our family....IS our business. I am growing to despise both of them for what they are doing. They are both at fault and equally to blame. Not that it matters.<p>selket [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

I realize teh business supports the family. But when it continues to become the vehicle of abuse, as has been the case in SNL invading Thinker's space repeatedly, it's doomed. Already dead. <p>BTW, Great point TTF - If SNL shared on a feeling level what was up with him, he'd surely get trashed. Thinker's feelings are the only ones that matter to Thinker. (I hate to admit that because surely my comment will get thrown in Thinker's face - the hate flies both ways with these two I'm afraid. I just get the feeling that Thinker's been on the receiving end beyond the breaking point - SNL still has the ability to be rational - but that makes his attacks all the more mean spirited; he knows Thinker's over the edge and it seems he's committed to keeping her there.)

I don't know KaylaAndy, as a former BS that acted a bit like Thinker I can tell you it didn't matter what my ex did, everything pushed me over the edge.<p> If he got upset about the situation I would counter with "What the hell do you have the be upset about this is your fault"<p> If he came at me cool and logically, I countered with "You have no feelings and don't care what you're doing"<p> You see, it becomes a catch 22 after a while because every action was interperted as trying to get me or not caring. I was too caught up in my own abandomment issues to see that he was at first trying to be fair and I wasn't letting it happen. I wanted to "win", plain and simple. Logic that the prize wasn't worth having didn't enter into the equation.<p> I do feel for Thinker, very much so because I've been where she is and know that irrational frame of mind. I didn't come to grips with all that happened and heal until I looked at my own flaws honestly and began working on changing the behaviors which hurt my past relationship(Work in propress, of course, this is not an overnight thing)

It might seem like a lot of us are coming down on her hard, truthfully we are. But that's because she seems restiant to any bending of will. This has become a contest to her too like it was to me, but she has far more to lose than I did. At least I could rely on the fact that I am healthy, young and finding work is not too hard. I left with one suitcase and 27 bucks and all of his(mostly) 30,000 debt. It wasn't too hard to come back from just had to bust my hump for a while. She has no such luxury and needs to play her hand correctly.<p> I believe very strongly that SnL will be fair to her in the settlement of her divorce. He may have cheated and he may now be at the end of his emotional rope but I truly believe he will not leave her homeless and destitute.<p> But to accomplish this she must begin cooperating with the breaking up of their property and assests. This is of monumental importance.

nduli,
I'd like to thank you and, IMHO, praise you for your ability to express this stuff like you do. You seem to verbalize pretty darn well - -> my feelings and opinions about snl and Thinker.<p>Thanks!
Faith1

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>nduli,
I'd like to thank you and, IMHO, praise you for your ability to express this stuff like you do. You seem to verbalize pretty darn well - -> my feelings and opinions about snl and Thinker.<p>Thanks!
Faith1</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Thank you Faith, I do appreciate it. I feel very badly about these two. No doubt both are good, solid, down to earth people in their own right. I don't see any "evil" here just a lot of confusion and pained snapping at each other.
Thinker reminds me so much of myself about a year and a half ago and so maybe I am harsh with her because I've come to dislike those things in myself. She's like a living embodiment of all the mistakes I made. She's a good person with a good heart just caught up in this and momentum is keeping her going.
I like SnL as well, even if at times he's a bit high handed and likes to debate for debate's sake, I feel he's good people and ulitmately we be as good to her in the divorce as he is able.