posted April 17, 2002 04:31 PM
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I would like to give a little history on Mr. and Mrs. Funk. We meet in HS and the sparks did not immediately fly. When we first hooked up I was in a pretty serious relationship at the time. I continued to see my now W as my feelings for her began to grow. Eventually after going back and forth between the two girls (cheating on one or the other) I ended up with my now W. This all occurred around 1989-91. I was very young 19 –21 years old. My ex girlfriend was much older than me and was more like a mother figure at times. W and me started to really get serious, as I finally had to make a choice between one or the other. I was happy with my decision and W was happy also. We dated exclusively for around two years. I guess around 1994 I found out now W was cheating on me. She left me and dated another guy for a year or so. During that year I called Now W every once in a while to see how she felt. At first she was very firm “ leave me alone” all the time. As months went by I called her again. After a while she was OK talking to me. She cheated on her other boyfriend with me. Soon after she broke up with her boy friend and we started dating again. To me life was great. I knew that she was the one I wanted to be with. She said the same. I moved into her apt and life was good. About 2 years into the rekindled relationship she cheated on me again. This time it was the mailman. I was devastated. I lost my temper and beat up the OM pretty bad. I went to jail for 30 days along with 2 years probation and anger management courses. The AMC courses were awesome and I am really glad I went. Now I get out Of jail and I did everything I could to forget about My now W. That summer for me was just the bar scene and dating allot. I had sex with 9 women in one summer. It seemed I could not find anyone who could fulfill me sexually or mentally as well as my now W. I started dating a really nice girl and I was feeling pretty good about things. Then All it took was one phone Call from my now W and I broke up with other girl and started back With my now W. This time we were both older and wiser so we thought. We said OK we have been through the dating Scene. We both have been in many other relationships. It’s obvious that we belong together. So after seeing each other for a few years, we bought a house together. Two years later we got married. So now you are pretty much up to date. As you Know we have been married for 2.5 years. Ws has recently had an A. Now that you have read all that here is my Question.
1. With so much cheating/Infidelity in the relationship can counseling really change behaviors in people. My Ws Knows the difference between right and wrong. When tempted it seems she does not have the discipline to turn away or the hindsight to think of the past and how we always end up back together. I keep telling her thing are different now. We are married and if this doesn’t work there is no going back.
2. Does anyone have any ideas as to why this keeps happening?
3. Am I just an Idiot for taking her back all the time?
4. She stated lastnight that she feels like she has to hit rock bottom to realize what it is she is throwing out. How can she hit rock bottom while living with me. Is ther anyway she can start to think rationally without hitting rock bottom?<p>--------------------<p>husband of "inafunk"

It is of my opinion that you are analyzing the wrong issues...and asking the wrong questions...but take that for what it's worth.<p>Can she change?? Can YOU change? Things can change, attitudes, habits, character flaws...can all change...but only with education, inspiration, and the desire to want to change. My H and I have both changed in ways we didn't think possible, but what "worked" for us won't necessarily work for you or your situation. Quite frankly we did it very very wrong...but still ended up ok.

Hope4future, if you dont mind me asking in your case who initiated the divorce. Did the A die a natural death?

Hi Mr. Funk!<p>First of all, I would like to apologize. I saw your post earlier - got busy at work, and forgot to come back to you. I'm glad you re-posted. And, just so you know, you can "post a reply" to yourself to *bump* it back to the top if you need more feedback (or in this case - SOME feedback).<p>ok. I will take a shot here... I hope some others will be along later. Good idea to give us some background, and those are good questions. And you seem much calmer these days. Good for you!<p>1. With so much cheating/Infidelity in the relationship can counseling really change behaviors in people. My Ws Knows the difference between right and wrong. When tempted it seems she does not have the discipline to turn away or the hindsight to think of the past and how we always end up back together. I keep telling her thing are different now. We are married and if this doesn&#8217;t work there is no going back.<p>Well, I personally believe that counseling can help, BUT only if the people are willing to learn and grow. A Dr. can prescribe medicine, but the patient has to take it. A teacher can assign homework, but the student has to so the work. You can lead a horse to water, bla bla bla... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ok, you get the point of that. <p>IMO, the Harleys are the best place to start - at least for one session. The Harleys have been studying infidelity for YEARS, and could good lay out a game plan to get you 2 on track. It may depend on what is holding your W stuck in these patterns. Does she think infidelity is ok? Does she have trust issues to think that you may not be around forever, so she might as well have fun? Does she have a sexual addiction? I am not that familiar with "serial cheaters", and I can't even think that I've seen any pull out of it successfully on here - but I could be very wrong about that. <p>Affairs are basically caused by 2 things - in varying proprtions (and also depending on moral values, addictions, etc): 1 - Unmet needs in the marriage, and 2 - weakness. You 2 can learn to meet each others' needs better, and learn and grow to feel more comfortable with the DECISION to remain faithful.<p>2. Does anyone have any ideas as to why this keeps happening?
oops.. I think I speculated on this in #1. Have you and Mrs. Funk filled out the EN's questionnaire together? <p>3. Am I just an Idiot for taking her back all the time?
Well, a common "fantasy" many of us have, is that **once we're married, things will be different [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] *** If this is the first A in your marriage, I don't blame you for thinking things might be different. Unfortunately, I've seen several BS's on here that say their spouses cheated before they were married... seems to remain a part of their ummmm.. character. You almost wanna say, "Didn't you see what you were getting into?" The point is - the past doesn't matter. Try to figure out if you want to be married to your wife, and in what ways you can be the best husband you can. If you love her - no I don't think you're an Idiot. If you allow her to do this over and over, then yes, you may qualify as Idiot status. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>4. She stated lastnight that she feels like she has to hit rock bottom to realize what it is she is throwing out. How can she hit rock bottom while living with me. Is ther anyway she can start to think rationally without hitting rock bottom?
hmmmmm.... garshhhh... I really don't think so. Many WS's don't "wake up" until they are hit HARD by reality - out there "on their own" - and find out that the fantasies don't end "happily ever after". In the meantime, Mr. Funk, lay down the best plan A you can - become the best husband you can - let her SEE what she'll be throwing out. <p>Mrs. Funk - if you are reading this - WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT TO HIT ROCK BOTTOM? It happens - believe us - it's all over these forums. That's a big risk to take - and there's NO telling what your rock bottom may be. STD's, AIDS, financial disaster, unemployment, depression, stress-related illnesses, loss of friends and family, domestic violence, unwanted pregnancies, there's probably many more I can't think of. Mrs. Funk - why would you want to test the waters? Why not CHOOSE this man that loves you SOOOO much, give this some time and patience, learn about yourself, and grow and nurture each other?<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] getting off my wittle bitty soap box now. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] just my 2 cents...<p>Hang in there... both of you [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Faith1 thanks for your post. I ask myself the same question about the W hitting rock bottom. The reason I asked “how can she hit rock bottom while living with me” is we have just purchased our dream home. It took us about a year or more to find this home. The only way I see that she could hit rock bottom is if she was away from me long enough to realize what she is missing. Unfortunately neither one of us could afford the mortgage by ourselves. The house would have to be sold. IM hoping she will realize what she is doing before we lose the house. I love my wife so much... I wish non-of this happened so we could enjoy this beautiful house we have both worked so hard to get. I go out in the yard and pick flowers for her often. This morning I cut some flowers and put them in her car. I have to say that I am not always this nice. I have moments that I think about things and get very negative. I hope counseling will help us through this. We have appointments set up with 2 marriage counselors. One on Friday and the other on Monday. Whoever we like better I guess we will stick with. This has been a long process going through the insurance and all. I will keep you posted.

bump

^ bump for more input for Mr. Funk ^ [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm glad you have counseling appointments set up. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I wish you two the best. Keep your chin up, dig in and get to work on Plan A. Biting your tongue on negative comments or complaints is a good lesson to learn (and HARD TO DO, I KNOW!!) THe flowers and other expressions of affection will mean a lot to her - especially if she will begin to belive that there's no strings attached.

I know the members of MB tend to frown upon husbands & wives replying in the same thread, but I feel I have to say something here.<p>For the past ?? days now, you've been getting Mr. Funk's version...his side. There are 2 sides to every story, as we all know. I haven't felt compelled to post because I have been pretty down, and I have pretty much stopped all efforts to fix the marriage. Why? I don't have an answer. Still in withdrawal, I guess, but H says I'm "milking that for all it's worth".<p>H has threatened immediate divorce papers if he finds out I talked to OM (other than telling him to leave me alone). <p>And I just have to giggle when I read that <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> We dated exclusively for around two years. I guess around 1994 I found out now W was cheating on me. She left me and dated another guy for a year or so.<hr></blockquote> Au contraire... I started dating that other guy after I found out he was STILL seeing his much older EXGF and had enough of his crap. How soon we forget? The fact of the matter is, Mr. Funk's track record of cheating is much longer than mine. Mine just happens to be later on in the game. Why? I don't have an answer. He seems to think it's a pattern on my end. <p>As far as hitting rock bottom goes, I don't want to have to. I just want happiness. I seriously cannot foresee happiness with H right now. He even called the spa last night to check if I was there. I am constantly questioned, accused, checked up on, ridiculed. Yes, there are nice things here and there. But again, I will not live like my mother did. My father would verbally and physically abuse my mother, and then do something nice to make up for it and keep her there. And please don't say that I'm blaming my childhood, because I am in fact trying to live the complete OPPOSITE of my parents. Oh yeah...I also get mocked for being an "independant woman". I guess this can only mean he wants to control me and have me depend on only him.<p>Yes, our house is beautiful, but a house isn't home unless you're happy.<p>H also keeps trying to force me to do things I don't want/am not ready to do, and when I refuse, he calls me disrespectful. He wanted me to go to his grandmom's b-day party with him the other night and I didn't want to go. I know his whole family knows (they gossip!) and I'm not ready for the looks, the whispers, or the advice yet. It's an embarrassing situation for me that I am just not ready to face.<p>Had to get that much off my chest. I don't want to sound angry, but I am pretty annoyed right now.<p>INAFUNK

Mrs. Funk and Mr. Funk,<p>I think most of us here understand that there are two sides to the story and figure "truth" is probably down the middle somewhere. Just want to reassure you that we have that in mind. The details of your past together are secondary to the fact that your past includes a lot of painful issues, trust issues, etc. The beauty of the MB approach is that EVERYBODY'S issues get addressed and repaired as long as BOTH people put forth the necessary effort to learn and apply the concepts.<p>I want to validate you, Mrs. Funk, on some of your distress and upset and appeal to your H to see the validity of it. The grandmother's b-day party is a case in point, assuming it occurred as described. Part of the basic foundation of MB are the following from Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts:<p>

• The Policy of Joint Agreement: Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.
• The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.
• The Rule of Care: Meet your spouse's most important emotional needs.

<p>When you overlay these on top of the grandma's b-day issue, it's pretty easy to see the problem:<p>

• There was no enthusiastic agreement. The issue should have been negotiated until there was.
• Mr. Funk was not avoiding being the cause of Mrs. Funk's unhappiness. Of course, Mrs. Funk's refusal to go probably caused unhappiness to Mr. Funk. But in this particular situation, I would judge Mrs. Funk's distress as greater because of the extreme discomfort involved, and it falls into the Love Buster category of a selfish demand by insisting that she go into a situation fraught with anxiety. Mrs. Funk's insistence on staying home was less selfish because she wasn't insisting that Mr. Funk stay home and miss his grandmother's birthday. In any case, it needed to be POJA'd.
• I don't know where it might fit in the Big 10 ENs, but I recognize Mrs. Funk's very legitimate need not to be exposed to unnecessary embarrassment, ridicule and/or humiliation that a situation like that could present. IMO, care and protection could best be displayed through empathy with Mrs. Funk's feelings about this type of situation.

<p>Now, remember, this is just me, one person's take on what I'm seeing presented by both of you on this thread, but here are my observations for what they're worth.<p>As Dr. Harley points out, it is NORMAL for the WS to not be in a state conducive to working on marital recovery until after the worst of withdrawal. The time table Dr. Harley has observed is that the most intense symptoms last up to three weeks with the rest fading over the next six months. While everyone is an individual, if I didn't start seeing a change within a month after the last contact claimed, then I would automatically suspect more recent contact, and I would most like be correct. This has been proven again and again on these boards.<p>Based on that, if it has been less than a month, then Mr. Funk needs to be patient and wait for Mrs. Funk to be in less of a funk. Mrs. Funk's duty is to maintain strict no contact in order to get through that first 3 weeks of the most intense withdrawal. Both should remember that if there is any contact at all, even to tell the OM to leave you alone, the clock will reset to zero. No contact means no contact, period.<p>So, it is legitimate for Mr. Funk to expect more effort from Mrs. Funk by one month post last contact. If this is not forthcoming, then Mr. Funk is justified in suspecting that there has been more recent contact than previously claimed by Mrs. Funk. At this point it becomes Mrs. Funk's responsibility to come clean about it if there has been more recent contact, and if there truly has not been, then she needs to begin putting forth more effort toward marital recovery, especially with the extraordinary precautions from Chapter 5 of SAA.<p>As far as threatening divorce, not only is this unnecessarily confrontational, it should never be done unless you are prepared to back it up and follow through, and if that was the case, then there would be no need for an announcement or threat. Mrs. Funk could just be served the papers, and she'd get the idea, I'm sure. I see this threat primarily as a tool for control on Mr. Funk's part and not a very effective one. Those of us truly contemplating divorce generally do not forecast it--we just do it and let the court summons do the talking.<p>The way to avoid the control problems that bother you, Mrs. Funk, is to take control of that yourself. Certainly you can see the need for the extraordinary precautions Dr. Harley advises in the wake of an A. As Dr. Harley says, Mr. Funk should not trust you. Really, neither one of you should trust the other, especially with the history you describe.<p>But there's an easy solution for that. BOTH of you follow the extraordinary precautions, and the problem is solved. Mr. Funk won't need to constantly check up on you if YOU constantly let him know your whereabouts and what you're doing and with whom. And Mr. Funk should do the same for you so you are both submitting equally or both in control equally, however you want to look at it.<p>Like I said before, the beauty of MB is that there is NO double standard. You cannot expect from your spouse what you do not provide to your spouse. It is mutual, it is fair, it is equal. Mrs. Funk's marital issues are every bit as legitimate as Mr. Funk's. The A is an extra issue that has its own dynamics, and both WS and BS have to do their parts to recover from it. But the underlying marital issues still need to be dealt with as they should have been dealt with BEFORE the A landed on top of them.<p>Deal with ending the A and withdrawal first. Once you get that taken care of, then you'll be able to deal with the other issues you've had all along.<p>[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Mr. Funk,
I am the WS, and I had A's with 4 different men in about a 6 month period. Four years later my H found out. As of June it will be a year from D-Day #1. I think God that my H decided to work this out. I believe that our M has gotten alot stronger because of all this crap. <p>MB is a great place for both of you to come to get great advice, and DR. Harley's books are great. I hope you two have bought and read "His needs, Her needs". If not I highly recommend doing so. I think it will answer some of your questions. I think you two need to communicate better. Tell eachother eveything that is bothering you.
I think that Mrs. Funk is confused and that you may have to Plan "A" her. I agree with her that no woman wants to be told what to do. My H constantly asks me the "Who, what, where, why's" but he says it's because he gets concerned, and I agree we need open communication.<p>I think that if the two people love eachother enough then they will go to any extreme to keep thier M. Counseling does help if you get the right person. But it takes both partners to make a M work. <p>Good luck you two are in my prayers. Sherry