You don't always have a chance when it's another person. You don't always have a chance when it's one of the items 1-4 either, as TR pointed out. The "wayward-or-distracted" spouse has to give you that chance.<p>- Tom

However, "addiction" (alcohol, drugs, gambling, pornography, have I forgotten anything?) might be added to the list. And those addictions are definitely on par with 1-4.<p>- Tom

My point in even posting this thread was to help us BS's identify weaknesses we might have ourselves that might take us from our marriages. Obviously we didn't partake of #5, it apparently isn't our weakness. But if 1 - 4 are, only by identifying them can we strive to not let them tear up our homes.

I disagree...I think that there are a lot of things in life that can hurt someone worse than an affair. I've seen the results of affairs firsthand (although I haven't experienced it)...and I'm pretty familiar with the feelings that go along wth it...there is a lot worse that people go through in this world...trust me on that.<p>I, too, wouldn't take any of those alternate affairs listed in the topic as something that could rival the pain of a love affair. They are, however, something that can weaken a relationship pretty seriously. I love the way that so many BS try to disregard the hurt they may have caused their spouse over the years by saying "but he/she's the one who had the affair!". So what? Wrong is wrong, hurt is hurt, and it doesn't go away, get disregarded, or get overshadowed by someone else's actions...you (the figurative you, meaning everyone) are still responsible for what you have contributed to the situation...just like your spouse is ultimately the only one responsible for not protecting themselves and giving into temptation.<p>Hurt isn't about putting it on a scale and weighing who has the "heavier" hurt...the whole "well I may have done/not done this, but you did/didn't do THIS" outlook is just not fair to everyone's pain. The hurts are still THERE, they DO NOT go away, and they are not to be ignored.<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

Towards the future, I agree wholeheartedly. Who's to judge hurt? And how much bad behavior short of an affair should a spouse have to put up with? I must admit if I had been in my WS's shoes, I might have done the same thing. In fact, looking back, I think I may have had an EA during the events leading up to his A. I didn't realize it was an EA, and it might not have been, but regardless I got very attached to someone and really missed them when their job transferred them elsewhere. No, it didn't hurt my husband like his A hurt me, mainly because he doesn't know about it. But the way it hurt my marriage was it diverted my attention from contributing to my marriage like I should have. Since my H was obviously not meeting my emotional needs, I should have talked to him about it. Items 1-4 do just what I mentioned, they fill ENs away from the marriage. They divert attention from the marriage to other things. Therefore the marriage suffers.

My WW would say I had an activities and career A, but that's just fog latin. She has no idea how much more I've been hurt by her A than she ever was. Period.<p>I'm with Conqueror. That list is bull$hit.

If you're inconsiderate of your spouse's feelings, and insensitive to their hurt, how can you really expect them to have sympathy for you? <p>My SO was like this...everything I brought up in therapy had a response from him like "Well, at least I didn't LIE" and "So what? I didn't screw someone else". <p>Of course...my response to that was something like..."Well, I can see how much you care about MY feelings...so why should I give a s**t about yours?"<p>Until you're willing to really *listen*, it's doubtful that you'll really be heard...<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamup:
<strong> And how much bad behavior short of an affair should a spouse have to put up with?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Boy is that an easy one! NONE! No one is holding a gun to anyone's head here as far as I know. All of us entered into the state of matrimony of our own free will, and we can all leave it of our own free will. Deception and betrayal are NOT necessary. My H had no obligation to put up with ANYTHING from me, nor I from him, but he DID have a moral obligation not to do something unnecessary to harm me, just as I did.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> I must admit if I had been in my WS's shoes, I might have done the same thing.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Why? Many of us WERE in shoes even more oppressive than our WS's, or at least as. In fact, it is usually the partner contributing the least to the M who has the A.<p>I have no quarrel with owning my contributions to the marital deterioration, and in fact I did that a long time ago and continue to do so. I'm still waiting for my H to do the same.<p>And there are degrees of pain, BTW. We have escalating punishments for the different levels of crime in our criminal justice system. Civil courts regularly make award judgments based on the level of pain and suffering they perceive the litigant to have experienced. And courts regularly assign percentage of blame in civil cases. This is part of the fabric of our culture.<p>My point in all this is that if a WS wants to restore their relationship, the best way to do that is to stop minimizing and assuming any kind of posture that conveys blaming the victim.<p>An integral part of MB is the EQUALITY of the system. The BS needs to own all their stuff, and the WS needs to do the same. And they both need to work at correcting their flaws as a partner.<p>However, I don't think it ever helps to paint victims with the same brush as perpetrators. There is a difference.<p>If they want to call those things marital neglect, then fine--we're all guilty of that at one time or another or maybe even many times and to severe levels. But adultery is a different issue.

Couqueror...<p>Typically in a court, there is a "winning" party and there is a "losing" party. <p>A relationship is not a courtroom...recognizing the validity of someone else's pain does not in any way lessen their responsibility for yours...but that goes both ways...

Jamup,
Personally, I see some validity in this..I know I was very guilty of family and activity over involvement...brought about, in part, by his over involvement in his work. So all the mixtures were there for one of us to have an A...the only reason it was him and not me was that it would have been one more thing to take care of..thanks, but I had enough.<p>And that statement says a lot about me right there...looking at an A as something I would have to take care of..not something that would take care of me.<p>T

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>Couqueror...<p>Typically in a court, there is a "winning" party and there is a "losing" party. <p>A relationship is not a courtroom...recognizing the validity of someone else's pain does not in any way lessen their responsibility for yours...but that goes both ways...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Nevertheless, judgments are made in relationships all the time. My H judged that I was not entitled to be as "single" as he was. The point is that there are differences between acts, differences between levels of pain, and differences between self-inflicted and other-inflicted pain.<p>Saying the adulterer's pain is the same as his victim's does not validate anyone's pain--it just promotes an attitude of minimization about the consequences of the act as well as the act itself.<p>Holding my H accountable for his marital sins does not impede me from holding myself accountable for mine. In fact, I submit that those of us holding our spouses accountable are likely to have already held ourselves accountable. If I'm not willing to tolerate certain behavior from myself, I'm not likely to tolerate it from my spouse either.<p>Will minimizing or dismissing my pain ease my H's? I doubt it. Me addressing MY actions that cause him pain is what will help with that. His pain resulting from his adultery, however, and my pain resulting from his adultery need action from HIM to fully resolve. What am I supposed to do to fix what's wrong in him that caused him to do what he did? Answer: There is nothing I can do except support and encourage him if and when he ever decides to fix it.

I don't mean to dodge any of my responsibility and I don't see that in the MB approach. Plan A is directed specifically at fixing items 1-4, or any other contributions the BS made to problems in the marriage. Plan A is all about changing the BS's own behavior. Plan A requires honest self-assessment, and some commitment to make changes.<p>Where I get hung up, is in trying to equate infidelity with those other issues. My WW had her own contributions to our marital problems, and those might be equated with the family, career, materialism, and other issues. But infidelity is something different. She went for months in dishonesty, cover-up, and betrayal. She planned a divorce ambush for weeks. There was a point at which we could have said, well, both of us have contributed equally to the problems. And she still wants to do that.<p>I know infidelity is not the worst life could present. I'm guessing the loss of a child would be the worst, but I don't really know. What I do know, is that this is the worst my wife could have done to me. Probably even including murder - that would have been over with quickly.<p>I do agree that there is an important point in this list, but I think the Harley Plan A is a better way of presenting it.<p>- Tom

My WW actually tries to compare us having sex before M as being unfaithful to our parents.<p> [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Geez. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks for sharing that information. It gives me something to think about. My counsellor had told me that she believes that I had my A out of revenge for being lonely, and it makes sense after looking at your list. My thought on my A, are still inconclusive. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

If you don't mind I thought I would offer something for consideration.<p>The affairs were listed as <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>. <p>1. Activities affair<p>2. Materialism affair<p>3. Career affair<p>4. Family affair<p>5. Love affair <hr></blockquote><p>I won't argue which one hurt someone most. Partly because it depends on the people involved. But,I would like to suggest that only one of these affairs does the following:<p>Destroys trust in ones partner<p>Destroys the self esteem of ones partner<p>Exposes the partner to life threatening diseases<p>And potentially causes the partner to raise a child that they are not the parent of.<p>I could go on, and some may make some arguements that 1-4 can in some circumstances do perhaps one of the things I mentioned, but none of 1-4 consistantly do most of the things I listed and perhaps even more.<p>I also think 1-4 is a needs issue and each of them can certainly cause a marriage to deteriorate, but #5 has some very very unique powers and the ability to damage the soul like few things can. THat is probably why it is a vow and one of the ten commandments.<p>Just a thought.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Thank you, JL! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jo

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Personally, I see some validity in this..I know I was very guilty of family and activity over involvement...brought about, in part, by his over involvement in his work. So all the mixtures were there for one of us to have an A...the only reason it was him and not me was that it would have been one more thing to take care of..thanks, but I had enough <hr></blockquote><p>You sound like me!!!!! I don't excuse or try to belittle the magnitude of what my spouse did by admitting I did wrong too. However, if 1 - 4 are forgivable, then #5 should be forgivable too! Once again I state that #5 does more damage to the spirit and soul of the BS than the other 4. But 1 - 4 do damage too. The wounded spouse in 1 - 4 feels second best, lonely, left out, etc. which all serve to lower the self-esteem too.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I do agree that there is an important point in this list, but I think the Harley Plan A is a better way of presenting it.
<hr></blockquote><p>This may be true. However, the reason I listed this organization's ideas was to provoke thought and discussion. I'm tickled that it has been successful in doing that. Maybe some of you have actually been helped by this thread. That was my desire in posting it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

My outtake on all of the types of affairs is that 1 - 4 could lead the other person to commit #5. However, #5 is certainly the most detrimental.