Dear OW,<p>I do not post much but lurk alot.<p>My marriage has been in recovery for 4 years. While my H's EMR was during his mid-life crisis years, the reasons it happened were just what everyone here has been saying. It was about HIM. <p>My H had a wife (me) who adored him, 3 almost grown sons who admired both of us, a respected position in our church, lots of friends. Everyone including me, thought we had the best marriage. <p>What went wrong? He met a woman on-line who made it seem as if he could do better. He had always had very low self-esteme. He fantasized that he could start all over again fresh, with someone who didn't know any of his faults and he could be the man that she believed he was. That's when he began to find fault with everyone and everything he had. The things he used to admire about me, the kids, his parents, etc. became things he would find fault with.<p>From reading everything I could and from the things he said, this is what I have pieced together. She offered an escape from reality (most of their discussions was centered around running away together) and a fantasy (at 45 he would start another family and never make the same mistates he made with us..he would be more patient, spend more time with his new kids that he would have with her). They wove this romantic world around themselves and believed the "soulmate" nonsense...theirs was the perfect love because they were so honest with each other and could tell each other everything...they could read each others minds...their relationship was more real because they fell in love before they met each other...therefore they were in love with the inner being of each other and not like other relationships where physical mattered. They were absolutely perfect for each other. He was preparing to leave me as soon as he could make arrangements.<p>His house of cards started to crumble when he noticed that she was not as perfect as he had wanted to believe. The fairy tale romance became his nightmare from hell. He begged me to give him a chance to make things up to me. I did and do not regret it. <p>Seems to me that most new relationships (EMRs included) are so intense that problems are overlooked to get the "high." An EMR in addition has the "common enemy" bond... its "us" against the world. It is an artifical way to build a relationship and the reason I think that the majority fizzle out in 6 months to 2 years.<p>OW, you made the right choice and it would not be unusual for you to recover and have moved on, way before the wife has even begun to heal. It took over 2 years for me to finally stop obsessing about that painful time of my life.

I am glad you have decided to learn more about yourself and why he acted the way he did. I am glad you finally took responsibility for what you were doing and ended it. This is a two way street, you and him were both wrong. <p>He was only thinking of himself. Wife was pregnant and fat. You probably look good to him. Wife after having baby is very tired, recovering from birth, dealing with baby. He feels left out. He feels wanted by you. He used you to fulfill some of his emotional needs. If you examine real close and ask whom he would choose, it would have been his wife and kid, not you. You finally wise up.<p>I would hope other people on this board would try to help educate you instead of being angry, and rude.

Please don't let $ stand in the way of counseling. It comes to a point where you can't afford NOT to do it. It may seem expensive at the time, but it's money very well spent in the long run. Nobody here is impartial, and nobody here is a trained, professional counselor.<p>My marriage would have never survived without it. We have spent over $5000 out of pocket to resolve the affair related issues. And we live on a VERY limited budget (you wouldn't believe me the amount if I told you). <p>There are also agencies, such as Lutheran and Catholic Social Services whose fees are based on income. Our first year of counseling we paid $20 an hour. Cheaper than going to a movie! I hope you will consider this, it really would help you. Good luck

Bravo WAT and others,<p> OW, please do keep coming here seeking help and the BS point of view to all of this. As others have said, everyone deserves a chance.<p> I ask those willing to actually think clearly, this question. Does it really matter that she went to her OMs home and had sex in the marital bed? Are you saying, after all you have endured, that this one detail would have ended your own marriages? You would have given up if that happened?<p> If, as some fear, you are here to cause further pain to those stupid BSes....well I guess the laugh will be on those willing to put their hearts on the line for a stranger. Won't be the first time that has happened on this site, and it won't be the last either. This is what makes these people such beautiful human beings.<p> I hope you find that which you seek.<p> jd

jd,
Since I'm hammering on that one fact, I'll assume you mean me. No, that one detail wouldn't make or break the reconciliation.<p>I take issue that OW uses that bed to illustrate how intimate & loving her relationship with the MM was.<p>I see a different side of that entirely.<p>I've said enough.<p>OW, I wish you well, it's great you broke it off with the MM, I hope you put enough positive out in the karma to ward off the circle coming your way. We reap what we sow and that includes the good things we do. You're young and can choose to go on to a really wonderful and productive emotional, romantic life.

Sheryl, I can see how you saw her post like that... but, just a different perspective here... I read her statement about the marriage bed as JUST info. I could be wrong, or I could be terribly naive. But I read her post as *info*, *details*, so that we would know how serious (intimate) her A was (not just a romp in the back seat of a car, in other words). I think she even realizes the importance of a detail like that - since she mentioned it. <p>I'm also thankful she mentioned it, because it proves (to her and to us) what a shallow, disrespectful MM he is. <p>OW, <p>you said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>At this point, I'm terrified of getting married and having a child and getting "my just desserts." <hr></blockquote><p>To ME, this proves her remorse, and recognition of doing something hurtful to a marriage, and to all people involved.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on why a new child caused enough stress for me to be a part of MM's life, <hr></blockquote> <p>Perhaps a husband could describe any feelings they experience during or after pregnancy, toward his wife? I don't have kids, but I suspect that men sometimes feel like their wife is unattractive because of the weight-gain, moodiness, etc. Or perhaps he feels neglected because of the hormones and stress she goes through during the pregnancy, birth, and attention necessary for a new baby. He could also be scared of being a new father - scared of filling the fatherly and financial role adequately. <p>Regardless, he was WRONG to seek consolation, sex, fun, attention, WHATEVER... from you. But those are some thoughts of possibilities to answer to your question.<p>Next,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>and if there's anything that I should keep in mind for the future-- besides never sleeping with a MM again-- I know <hr></blockquote><p>How did your relationship with the MM begin? You didn't hop in the sack with him right away (right?). Soooooo.... Advice for the Future (depending on your answer to that question), be VERY cautious befriending a MM - listening to his troubles... be extra cautious if he is bad-mouthing his wife - it's probably lies, or the sign of a WEAK man running from his commitments. Your relationship probably began as a friendship and grew from there. So there's your advice. <p>One more thought: If you are truly remorseful, do not contact that MM again - for any reason.<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

OW,
What are you REALLY trying to find out? You posted a thread recently on THE OTHER board about MM going to therapy and what to expect (if he will choose W or OW, will the counselor sway him one way or the other, etc). DO you really want help for yourself or are you just gathering information so you can analyze and use it to see if MM will come crawling back to you or if you can get the upper hand on the W? If you really want to help yourself, stop focusing on HIM and find out about what is causing you to even want someone so callous as MM.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>Sheryl, I can see how you saw her post like that... but, just a different perspective here... I read her statement about the marriage bed as JUST info. I could be wrong, or I could be terribly naive. But I read her post as *info*, *details*, so that we would know how serious (intimate) her A was (not just a romp in the back seat of a car, in other words). I think she even realizes the importance of a detail like that - since she mentioned it. <p>I'm also thankful she mentioned it, because it proves (to her and to us) what a shallow, disrespectful MM he is.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I agree it DOES point out how disrespectful the OM is (and her)... <p>I am not judging *what* she did. Lord knows I am not in the position to judge. <p>I'm also not speaking from a place of pain. My infidelity situation is looooooooong over.<p>What I am upset about is that there are newly (and not so newly, but still very hurting) BS's who come here for help in BUILDING MARRIAGES.<p>I must be getting old and cynical...

Probably the primary reason why there is this "intimacy" where a WS can talk so openly and deeply with an OP and not as easily with his/her spouse is a very important marital paradox:<p>The more important your spouse becomes to you, the more you need your spouse, so the less you want to risk revealing yourself IF you are hooked on other-validated intimacy. There is a major fear of rejection. There is much less risk opening up to the OP who, by comparison to the spouse, is a stranger. And who cares if you're rejected by an OP because there's always another one coming down the pike.<p>So, the very fact that a WS has an A is an indication of how very important his/her spouse has become to him/her.

Conqueror

Wow, interesting point.... makes sense.

Dear OW~<p>I had an affair when I was 24. I did some of the most stupid, horrible, disrespectful, hateful things during this affair. I even did some of the things you mentioned that you did (although I never played with his children in his and his wife's bed). I was young, sowing my oats, thinking it (the A) was something it wasn't, and thinking I was "bigtime" now.<p>The things I did were so horribly shameful that I am loathe to even think about them. But you know what, the fact of the matter is that I was a person capable of doing those deeds and I did indeed do those things. I can't take them back no matter how hard I try. But, what I can do is make amends the best way I know how. I can work on me so that I can be ASSURED that I will NEVER allow another man (or anyone) treat me the way I allowed myself to be treated. I will never allow another man to use me as his tool to disrespect his wife, his children, my husband or my child. I can make sure that I do NOT tread on another fellow sister and I can do my darndest to raise my daughter to be the person I wasn't big enough to be. I can also make sure that I never use another person in this way again. I thought I cared about the MM I was seeing, but I didn't. I cared about me and my feelings. I will never allow myself to use another the way I used him. I liken it to me "smiling in his face and twisting the knife in his back". I thought I was loving him, I was helping him to do some very bad and very hurtful things. I was very unloving.<p>I can tell you than RIGHT NOW, you are at a point where you really can learn the most from this situation. RIGHT NOW you can either open up and absorb and mull over what advice is given to you and learn and grow and become a person that you can respect, know that you can and WILL act with dignity, know that in the future you WILL treat others with respect now matter your own personal loss. I guess what I'm saying, is by learning NOW from THIS experience, you can go on to be someone with a fully formed conscience. You can go on to be someone who can empathize (be able to put yourself in another's shoes) and act accordingly. You can go on to be someone who can look in the mirror, conscience and dignity intact, and LIKE and respect the person looking back.<p>So, you can either take this opportunity that has presented itself to you and work very hard to be someone you can respect....work very hard to be someone who can and will be respected....or you could not take this opportunity and go through life emotionally the same as you are now. Do you want this? <p>I don't care one wit why you came here (unless if you came her to hurt others or to find out "underground" information to further your connection to this male), but the fact is, you ARE here. There is a wealth of knowledge, advice and experience for the taking. Take it.....use it.....to become a better you.<p>I do believe that we reap what we sow. That is why I sit on pins and needles because I am married and I have a husband that I love very much. There are women out there who will treat me with the same lack of respect that I treated another woman. There will be times that my husband is vulnerable. And most assuredly, there will be times when one of these women comes into contact with my husband at a vulnerable point. I hope and pray that my husband will treat me with the respect that I didn't show him. But, I will never know until it either happens or it doesn't. What I can do is prepare myself (just in case) and work on my marriage.<p>I can work on me. That is the best gift I can ever give myself. The same goes for you, OW. One day you will find yourself in a relationship where your mate (hopefully unmarried) means more to you than anything. We are all vulnerable. How will you grow from this experience so that you can handle what life (karma) throws at you?<p>You are young and there is so much life and opportunity ahead of you. You will get your "just desserts" but that doesn't necessarily mean that your husband will cheat on you. I got my just desserts. I get to go to my grave with the full comprehension of knowing how low I stooped for my own gratification and how many people I hurt that got in my way. And last, but certainly not least, when I look into my husband's eyes, I know that he knows what I did. If that ain't just desserts, I don't know what is.<p>selket<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

Wow. Thank you for your honesty. A lot to think about... what were the turning points for you? I am in a lot of pain and trying to turn it into something constructive, and I am proud that I have NOT contacted him, although I am still VERY confused. I count the days that I find the strength now that I couldn't before. I have to assume that there is a process for closure and learning, and that is why I am putting myself on the line here, and I have to say the strength that I have is from the feeback I get both here and at TOW. I find myself visiting here more than over there because I think I need to feel that shame as well as the support. If I only posted over there, I might keep up my delusion longer than I should. Your story seems as if it might be an inspiration to me changing my life... If you'd like to email me, my adress is Vera8888@aol.com.
Again, thank you.

WAT makes a good point and I'd like to apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusion (I thought you were a troll here to rub salt in wounds). Seeing you post an email address indicates otherwise. To me it seems you need a lot of attention, from a MM, TOW boards the MB boards. <p>Please stay here for that attention before looking to any MM for it. Think about finding books or groups to help build some self esteem. Think about how nice life might be if you don't let a MM or any other man use you again.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zorweb:
<strong>Conqueror

Wow, interesting point.... makes sense.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Can't take credit for it being an original idea. Came straight from Schnarch's Passionate Marriage. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But I did recognize the absolute truth of it. At one time during the A when my H was not initiating sex and I was feeling so rejected (didn't know about the A at that time), I remember thinking that I could have sex with a complete stranger easier than with my own husband! I had nothing to lose with a complete stranger, but a lot to lose with my H.<p>I think the very fact that the guy OW got involved with violated his W's home, bed, and motherhood proves how emotionally fused he is to his W and apparently totally dependent upon a reflected sense of self. A W knows you too well--the good, the bad, and the ugly. With an OP you get a fresh start and can present only the good, so feel really good about yourself looking into the OW mirror.<p>So, to answer your question, OW, YOU need to develop a higher level of differentiation in order to attract a man with a higher level of differentiation and therefore a solid sense of self that doesn't require another person to tell him who he is. I believe it is a strong sense of self that prevents affairs. It is a lot harder to betray yourself than someone else.

I have read these posts for the past few days and want to say to OW that as long as you remember the purpose of this site and the posters here (we are all here because of various degrees of pain in our lives), then you will learn and grow. <p>The past will be kept in the past. There is such a thing as mercy and forgiveness but it can truly only come if you are honestly repentant. <p>So now you are in pain. That is a sign of healing. Another MBer who is a single OW came here recently, she also is young and made some bad choices but from the last we heard, she broke off with MM a while back and after a short time alone (during which she was able to set new goals and direction for herself - she had a bit of MB bashing here to at the start - fiesty young un!), she has now met a nice unattached young man and is working on becoming friends. Nothing fast, just friendly. She visits here at times to let us know how she is doing. You can look for her periodic posts..... Shannon1. <p>The reason why I share this is so that you know what you can attain here if you choose. You have made some bad choices in your short lifetime. You now have the opportunity to make a better life. A few posters here have been in a situation similar to yours. Pay attention to them, they can give you many tips. <p>There is no guarantee on getting a perfect mate. But you can learn what to watch for. <p>Get ahold of the book, his needs/her needs. Learn what it means to be loving not just alluring. Big difference. True love is an enduring, long lasting and long suffering emotional quality. It goes along with trust and respect. It can not survive without it. <p>So for starters, work on trust and respect. <p>Read and let us know how you are doing. <p>Take Care and stay out of trouble.
L.

I agree that there's a correlation between sense of "self" and susceptibility to having an affair. After enough time, and under the right circumstances, anyone's sense of self can erode to the point of making them vulnerable. <p>Self-healing seems (to me) to be vitally important in affair recovery, in conjunction with relationship healing...

No flame here either. Years ago, I would have thought you were either just plain stupid or evil...but sometimes things happen when we are searching for love or happiness. <p>Ok, so you made a mistake and now realize it and want to learn from it. Good for you! Learn from it, but never forget it! The man you were with was very selfish....perhaps he was hurting or something as well....but thats another story.<p>You are only 24, right? You have years and years of happiness ahead of you! Go out and enjoy yourself, BUT be true to yourself. Don't be someones OW.... don't allow yourself to be anything other than THE WOMAN. You can find a man of your own (if thats what makes you happy)... just remember the pain that any A can cause to all the parties involved.<p>Also, there are no guarantees about a future H not having an A.... all I can advise is to keep up the communication... to be open and honest about feelings... and again, to be true to yourself.<p>Good luck.....and may you NEVER be an OW again!

OW~ <p>Might I suggest a name change to something more positive? <p>To be honest, my major turning point was when I realized what I was doing to the ones I supposedly loved. It was when I stopped thinking about only me and started taking some responsibility.<p>Of course you are confused.......and that is a good thing. Maybe it shows your conscience is niggling away at you? You have strength in you, it's there, use it even when you don't think you have it. Your strength is a power you possess that ONLY YOU can give to another. Keep that in mind when you feel tempted. There is nothing about this situation that you can't rise above.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have to assume that there is a process for closure and learning, <hr></blockquote><p>I may get some disagreement with what I'm about to say but having a "process for closure" isn't necessary....I see it as a tool (for many people) to keep dragging their feet. Closure is NOT necessary to heal.......you many never get closure, especially considering that you put your trust and emotions into the hands of a man who would lie to the people he was supposed to love above all others. So closure may never come concerning the relationship you two shared. <p>The best thing (IMHO) for you to do is to kill this connection right now and get it behind you and stop mulling over this man and why'ing things to death. Those things are not important and wasting time on them will only stunt your growth. You are dealing with a liar....don't give him any more of your energy because so far you have only enabled him to hurt you, others, and himself. The best thing you can do for YOU and the people you tresspassed against is to get yourself as far away from them as possible. Interlope no more in that marriage and leave him to flounder so that he will maybe wake up and start taking care of business the way it should be taken care of.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I find myself visiting here more than over there because I think I need to feel that shame as well as the support.<hr></blockquote><p>Well, I wouldn't say that your driving force for being here should be shame. Sure you should be ashamed of yourself.....but that shame will hit you full force sometime down the road. Shame can be a very useful tool to keep things in perspective. You are still foggy right now (hence your confusion) so forget about the shame at this point and work on, not how others make you feel, but, how you can get yourself out of this mess and become a better you. Trust me, when reality hits you, you will feel enough shame for everyone....again, don't waste time worrying about shame....worry about you and staying away from that family. AND, as a bonus (sarcastically said), when you find yourself really loving a man with a love that is pure you will fully appreciate (empathize) with the BS's here because you will be able to somewhat grasp just how much infidelty can possibly hurt. Listen to these spouses who have been betrayed. Read their pain and LEARN from it.<p>Another suggestion......do not post on the OW website while you are working on yourself. Again, trust me on this......I say go a month without posting there (they allow you and encourage you to focus too much on BEING and OW as opposed to BECOMMING your OWN SELF). After a month of working on yourself, questioning, getting feedback from all sides ( here, and possibly another website I can direct you to) and really think about what you have done and are doing......then go back to that website and just read. You will see how desperate and pitiful those women (and men) really are. I don't care how proud and tall those women stand right now......YOU will be able to see how pitiful they have allowed theirselves to become. <p>I have to tell you, you will get faster responses from me if you post here. I am open to you if you have any questions or would like to share with me.<p>Be good and strong and work hard,<p>selket

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by worthatry:<p>"So, CMiranda, and others, unless you have anything constructive to add, I humbly suggest you spend your time finding somebody on the forum to help or seek help for yourselves.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>"<p>Don't take my comment out of context. If OW came to this site hoping her MM's wife would recognize her she not only is cruel and rotten, she validates BS's opinions that OW come to this site to hurt people. I was ow and ws and I was accused of coming here to hurt people for alot less than boasting about my affair with someone elses husband. OW post seemed to be written with revenge in mind and when PI asked if she was her H's OW, it struck me that OW may have been hoping to be recognized. I think that is LOWER than Dirt. Sorry.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong>Probably the primary reason why there is this "intimacy" where a WS can talk so openly and deeply with an OP and not as easily with his/her spouse is a very important marital paradox:<p>The more important your spouse becomes to you, the more you need your spouse, so the less you want to risk revealing yourself IF you are hooked on other-validated intimacy. There is a major fear of rejection. There is much less risk opening up to the OP who, by comparison to the spouse, is a stranger. And who cares if you're rejected by an OP because there's always another one coming down the pike.<p>So, the very fact that a WS has an A is an indication of how very important his/her spouse has become to him/her.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Good post Conquerer! There is a lot of phony intimacy going on in these OP/WS relationships. The WS puts his best foot forward, the OP doesn't get to see the bad parts (at least not in the honeymoon period). They are partners in crime, sharing a secret, which gives a feeling of intimacy. OP thinks "He is risking everythign for me, he musrt love me so much." But in reality 99% of the WS don't think they could possibly get caught, even if they are careless.
My H was havign a big time MLS copounded by depression when he had his A. He actually told me (this is classic fogese) "Part of the reason I don't want to be married anymore is that you know me too well." He couldn't pretend to be anything with me, I knew who he was. But he could be whatever he felt like being to the OP. He created "Partyman!" for her. Of course I didn't know Partyman too well, but that was okay with me. I'd rather know the real person, not the fictitious one. But OW thought she knew him soooo well. Turned out in the end he didn't even tell her the correct amount of siblings he has lol. Or that his father had a terminal illness, his mother had a life threatening surgery during the A etc. So much for sharing everything. And after the fog cleared, one of his reason to come BACK to the marriage was "You are the only one who really knows me, and I love that you do, and that you understand me".