I have a strong gut level feeling about this. H was sexually abused by an authority figure in highschool, someone we both new and trusted. H still thinks it was HIS OWN fault. H's last OW was a powerful, charismatic, seductive, manipulative person, who met his needs with flying colors. He became completely emotionally dependant on her. As far as I am concerned it was emotional/mental abuse, which to me could be more damaging than sexual abuse. There is no EXCUSE for his EA, however I do see how unresolved abuse issues can keep a person in a vulnerable state for a lifetime. I really dont know how to approach the subject with him and now is not a good time anyway. Any similar experiences/thoughts? (H has said that what OW did was VERY SUBTLE, I call it predatory).

^ ^ bumping for mre help ^ ^<p>I don't have any personal experience with this, but I'll take a stab here with my thoughts.<p>Replaced,
I'm SURE that his experience in high school has affected him. We see QUITE often on these boards how common sexual abuse rears it's ugly head later in life - either in the WS or the BS - depending on the individual and how they handled it. Seems that it either causes control issues, or self-esteem issues.<p>I'm not sure about how to bring it up with your H. Not sure how comunication is going, or his willingness to learn why his A happened and how to prevent it again.<p>A couple of thoughts here... at an appropriate time, ask him if he ever thinks about his experience in high school. Ask him if he thinks it hasd long-lasting affects on him. I guess - to just get him thinking about it and talking about it. If he gets uncomfortable or angry, drop it. saying, "i was just thinking about it and wondered what you thought". If he knows you are on this forum, you could also say you read some posts from other people where prior abuse contributed to their susceptibility to affairs - and what did he think.<p>Overall, there's probably little you can do to "help" him, besides being there for him, and maybe try to get him to talk about it. gently.<p>You could learn more about it, and how to help him through some of the issues. If it caused him to be unsure of himself, you could step up your efforts at filling his admiration need. Help him feel great about his role in your life, so that he won't feel the need, or fall prey to the seductions of another woman... yes, I agree - "predator".<p>Just my thoughts... I could be wayyyy off base. I HOPE you'll get some more input.

Replaced,<p>My DIL experienced several years of SA as a child. S and DIL's MC says that the SA built the framework in which DIL thinks. Their M is very much affected by the SA. The way DIL sees the world has preset problems, ones that my S did not contribute to but from which he is suffering none the less. <p>ThornedRose has been very helpful, helping me to see how the female SA victim thinks. She has recommended a book, The Wounded Heart. I ordered it through Amazon. com, but it has not yet arrived. Our discussions have been from the perspective of the female SA victim. I don't know if it addresses the male perspective.<p>I do know that TR says that the SA victim (female) feels like she deserves the bad treatment given to them by OP because that is what they were trained early on to expect, and that they may not know how to accept the unconditional love of their spouse.<p>I will look forward to the responses you get from men since there is not as much out there about male victims. Most certainly, SA changes things fundamentally in the minds of the victims. TR recommends attending SA support groups for the spouse of SA victims. She also says there are two different stages for the SAed. One is opening acknowledging something happened. The second is doing something to come to terms with what happened. I know that my DIL's SA was like a time bomb waiting to go off and disrupt their M.<p>Good luck in your search for information.
Estes

Thanks Estes & Faith, I also posted on the OPRAH thread in th Recovery forum. The abuser not only molested, he influenced H's view of me and probably influenced his decision to marry me. We both knew and loved this man so much. Right this minute I am realizing that MY ENTIRE MARRIAGE IS BASED ON THIS MAN INFLUENCING H TO MARRY ME. I have always known something was wrong with our marriage, I had no idea it was this. This is overwhelming me right now, I truly dont know if I can bear it.

I hate that [censored] and I hope he rots in he#l. He molested my H, counseled H and I seperately about our relationship, influenced our view of each other, (I am starting to remember more details of how it was then). This was our highschool teacher/guidance counselor. I just remembered he invited several of us to his house one night just to hang out. For some reason I was the only girl. His wife was there, she went off in another room, didnt really mingle with us. We were 16/17 years old. I do remember how much fun we all thought this was to have this really cool teacher pay so much attention to all of us, and how important and special we felt. None of the other kids got this much attention from him. I have to stop, it is scaring me. I wonder how many other victims there were.

I also hate OW and hope she rots in he#l. She would say stuff to H like, "you need to move past that and move forward", when he was infatuated and making advances. She had total control. She was a self proclaimed counselor in our business, our marriage, H's personal issues including sex and childhood issues, spiritual issues, AND was our employee, proclaimed herself as a good friend, and openly flirted with H. This is all fact, it is in emails, on a phone tape, H has told me a little of it, and friends, employees, family and customers told me the rest. <p>WELL OW, I think H and I will decide for ourselves when we are ready to move past that and move forward. We dont need any more abusive counselors in our life, thankyou.<p>This is almost funny--OW was doing ALL of this stuff within 3 WEEKS of meeting my H. Fast worker.<p>I dont feel a bit guilty about hating these people.

{{{{{replaced}}}}}<p>IMO, I think it's good that you are sorting through this stuff. I encourage you to also write in a journal to get these thoughts out. KEEP posting here - I'm NOT telling you to go away... I just know how much it helps me to write my thoughts out.<p>You said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>WELL OW, I think H and I will decide for ourselves when we are ready to move past that and move forward. We dont need any more abusive counselors in our life, thankyou. <hr></blockquote><p>I think this is an important step for you in this process. That's exactly the way you need to think of the OW, and the A. YOU have to decide that SHE is no longer going to affect your lives.<p>You might even write her a letter (but DON'T send it!!!) with a lot of this stuff in it. Your discoveries, taking charge of your own life, etc.<p>Glad you are getting your arms around this... hang in there...<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

This stuff has got to come out and be faced. I can't begin to know how horrid it must be, but I know that it hurts to keep it in AND it hurts to get it out!<p>How much of this introspection is your H willing to do also? Seem that it will have to be done in order to have a healthy emotional future. That counselor is so evil! Does he still work for the school system? <p>As Faith1 advised, journal, write, post here. It will help to purge those awful memories that have been kept inside so long.<p>{{{Replaced}}<p>Estes

I have my own personal experience with childhood sexual abuse and adultery. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am extremely exausted right now. I will add more later.<p>Replaced....I think your thinking is right on target.<p>selket

replaced,<p>i keep saying abuse is the gift that keeps on giving...and it does. yes, i'd have to agree that your husband reacts to his world the way a victim does....the decisions he makes are clouded by his sense of betrayal....and in that regard it's hard to blame him. still, he is ultimately responsible for his own actions....it is only enabling to dismiss every mistake he makes on his past.<p>i was molested by my father....there is no greater betrayal than that...maybe mother i guess...but only that. still, real healing comes from taking control of my life....holding myself, not my past accountable for my actions.<p>grieve for your spouse, help him find peace and a REAL counselor who can help him....but do hold him accountable for his current decisions. this doesn't have to define him forever....and you can help with that. <p>here is the message he must hear....i love you. i will understand and help you...i will be patient...together we can build a place of security where these things can never hurt you again....come with me. <p>i faced my abuser....it was the most empowering thing i ever did....has he considered this? would he? if not....get a picture of this guy....blow it up....make a dart board or a doll...help him to act out his pain. get him into a support group.<p>I am appalled at how little help there seems to be for men. you are strong...when i see a need for something important to me...i go into action and organize it if it doesn't exist.<p>
oh gosh....am i on a rant....sorry....<p>i just get so mad.

Somewhere in the MB site Harley says not to dwell on the past. I do not think he means to sweep serious issues that undermine our lives and marriages under the rug. <p>I'm confused about what Harley DOES mean about not dwelling on the past. Surely he does not mean this kind of stuff does he?<p>I find it very easy to accept things when I FULLY UNDERSTAND what happened, but until then it is a constant feeling of dis-ease and confusion.

I am sure that Harley does not include abuse in what he is referring to. This is a whole other issue, a profound, life-changing one. <p>However, maybe it could be construed to mean deal with it rather than dwell on it. Or maybe he means not to keep going over and over things that will not change simply by thinking about them and not taking action of some sort. <p>Estes

Is it common for a sexually abused person to be unable to feel rage at the abuser? To minimize, justify, take the blame for, even stick up for the abuser? <p>Everything all of you have shared is so important to me. I now know that I am not overeacting. That is something I have a big problem with, being afraid that I am making too much of something, or rocking the boat for no good reason.<p>I remembered something else H said about the male abuser when he was 8. The guy kept saying "you're not doing it right". Periodically H gets into a pattern of saying "I cant do anything right", "I never do anything right". It comes across as if to mean----that he is no good----sometimes it sounds as if he means that he can NEVER please me no matter what he does. He gets stuck in this and drives everybody around him NUTS. <p>Another thing---If I thank him, compliment or praise him, many times the answer is---"really?" He says this as if to mean---oh yeah, are you SURE about that? As if to question my sincerity. It actually angers me, it feels as if it is meant to somehow HURT me, (and it does, it feels like he is saying that I am a liar or that he doesnt trust my view of him). [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

replaced,<p>i feel certain that when harley is talking about the "past" he is talking about the "marital past" and not issues of upbringing, abouse etc. think of abuse in terms of an addiction....because in a sense....it acts the same way on a marriage....MB principles don't work the way they are supposed to when the damage it has created is still in place.<p>"worthlessness" is just one of the feelings abuse creates....especially when the events occur in childhood, because you grow up feeling as though you've been compromised..and used. guilt, unresolved anger, hopelessness, and the idea that you will never be good enough and no one really loves you are a few more of the crippling emotions you are left with. but one of the worst is that you deserved it in someway...it was your fault. you should have done something...could have done something.....you wanted to say no, or scream, or tell someone....and you didn't. you protected your abuser instead of yourself because he was someone you loved and trusted. and having once abandoned yourself....you just keep doing it. <p>it is very very common for the abused to stick up for these people...even displace the blame on themselves.....children especially do not have a well developed self until much later and their abusers have tricked them into believing this some how makes them special. for example...my daddy was my doctor as i said....which gave him license to examine me whenever he wanted. i knew...even then...i KNEW there was something wrong with the way he touched me. when i would cry and say 'daddy i'm not sick, i don't feel bad' he'd just tell me i was being so silly...that he was a doctor, and that i didn't have anything that anybody else didn't have. then i would feel stupid and ignore my own intuition...my own sense of what was right and wrong....it made me question myself instead of him...do you see how that works? and how it would follow you into the future?<p>i think you are right about the self-image problems you see in your husband relating back to these issues....i hope my illustration helps you see how. your sense of self is being formed at the same time as the abuse is dissecting it...it destroys your confidence and leaves you with the feeling that you are unworthy of love, respect or admiration. it is hard to get that back.

As a survivor of sexual abuse myself, I can give you a little bit of input on this topic...<p>Sexual abuse is something that tinges every single aspect of someone's life. It can be an almost totally debilitating experience until you begin to deal with it.<p>I was talking to someone on the recovery board about the "gray area" that many WS have in affairs. This is especially true for abuse survivors, as they typically cannot set boundaries like a non-abused person can. <p>Sometimes a WS initiates the EA...but due to their inability to extricate themselves from what they've started, they feel "trapped", like they can't escape their situation. When I met my OM, I had ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION of sleeping with him...but he pressured and I was literally unable to say "no". This was causing a lot of guilt until I did more rresearch into abuse survivors and saw how many problems I have as a direct result of what happened to me.<p>If someone is abused...they have control, and the power to say "no"...but they don't always see it, or are afraid to use it. I think healing and therapt regarding all of the issues that stem from the abuse are the only ways to get past this.<p>I admire spouses that can stick with abuse survivors. The survivor has a long road ahead...and it can be frustrating for the spouse, I'm sure.

Thornedrose has some extrordinary information about what abuse does to the neurological developement of children on the Oprah thread on the EN board. unbelievable!!! well acually...not unbelievable....explains so much.

Replaced, <p>Thank you for inviting me to comment on this thread. It is an honor to be invited. I suspect you may not like what I have to offer, but I will share my thoughts with you anyway. You can chose to accept what you like and ignore what you don&#8217;t. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Replaced:
<strong>Somewhere in the MB site Harley says not to dwell on the past. I do not think he means to sweep serious issues that undermine our lives and marriages under the rug. <p>I'm confused about what Harley DOES mean about not dwelling on the past. Surely he does not mean this kind of stuff does he?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>There are two primary approaches to therapy; inner child healing and cognitive therapy. Inner child healing deals with gaining an understanding of where your values and attitudes come from. When you have this knowledge, it can give us a sense of power over our attitudes and makes it easier for us to change. The other side of the coin is that if we see ourselves as victims from our past experiences, it often leads to a feeling that we are powerless to overcome the negative feelings and hence, dwelling on it becomes a barrier to change.<p>Cognitive therapy deals with changing our attitudes regardless of where they came from. We can quite smoking without knowing what underlying insecurity might be contributing to the habit. We can just chose to stop and apply self discipline to achieve this goal. We can learn to love our spouse in a similar way. That is what Plan A is all about. We chose to love regardless of the past issues and it becomes a habit. <p>The MB concepts are all cognitive approaches to marriage healing. When people call into Dr. H&#8217;s program and talk about past &#8220;inner child&#8221; issues he redirects them to &#8220;what they can do today&#8221; to overcome the negative attitudes they developed from those past issues. This is what he means when he says &#8220;don&#8217;t dwell on the past&#8221;. He wants us to look at today as being the first day of the rest of our lives and chose our attitudes based on what will work for us today, not what happened to us in the past. <p>Does this make sense? <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Replaced:
<strong>Periodically H gets into a pattern of saying "I cant do anything right", "I never do anything right". It comes across as if to mean----that he is no good----sometimes it sounds as if he means that he can NEVER please me no matter what he does. He gets stuck in this and drives everybody around him NUTS.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>People learn at an early age to measure their success by how other people react to them. This can cause our self-esteem to become dependent on &#8220;external&#8221; factors - job promotions, compliments, being invited to post on a thread...etc. Because self esteem is so important and we can&#8217;t control these external factors we become vulnerable to other people. Those who learn how to push our buttons will be able to manipulate and control us. They use our need for external reassurance to make us do things we may not want to do. You can call this abuse if you like but it is far to common to suggest it is &#8220;Evil&#8221;. I would even bet that you are guilty when it comes to using your H&#8217;s vulnerability to manipulating him to do what you want. <p>When we do things that we don&#8217;t want to do we often think of them as being a form of &#8220;gift&#8221;. For example, your H may cut the grass knowing this is what you want him to do. Lets assume he doesn&#8217;t value a neat yard and thus has no desire to cut the grass himself,. He is doing it because it is what you would want. It is a gift. <p>If your H was totally independent of a need for external reassurances, how you react to his gift would have no consequences. He would perceive that he has done good and walk away feeling gratified by his kindness. But because he has learned to measure his worth according to how other people respond, he finishes the job and then looks for your reaction. If your reaction supports his perception, he feels good. If it doesn&#8217;t he feels abused. <p>The thing is that may not perceive his action as a gift. To you, cutting the grass is a responsibility. To thank him for meeting a responsibility would be inappropriate. Hence, he looks to you for gratitude and gets complacence. I am not suggesting you are wrong to be complacent, I am just suggesting that this is often how the dynamics work. One spouse perceives they are giving a gift and the other perceives the same action as complying with responsibilities. <p>Over time these differences in perspective build up. The dependent person begins to feel like the &#8220;gifts&#8217; they give are never valued. They can never do enough to earn their spouses gratitude. Their self esteem diminishes and they begin to question what it is they are doing wrong. They think &#8220;I must be doing something wrong or I wouldn&#8217;t feel this way&#8221;. <p>In a sense, it is allot like the spouse who doesn&#8217;t feel &#8220;in love&#8221; when their needs aren&#8217;t met. They think &#8220;there is something wrong for me to feel this way&#8221;. They often get trapped into perceiving that they must have never loved their spouse - or - that they will never love again. It creates a sense of hopelessness and panic. In your H&#8217;s case, he doesn&#8217;t feel any love for himself because his internal needs aren&#8217;t being met - he has become dependent on external influences to meet them and doesn&#8217;t know how to meet them himself. Hence, there are times that he feels he has never been a worthy person, he is hopeless and panics. <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Replaced:
<strong><p>Another thing---If I thank him, compliment or praise him, many times the answer is---"really?" He says this as if to mean---oh yeah, are you SURE about that? As if to question my sincerity. It actually angers me, it feels as if it is meant to somehow HURT me, (and it does, it feels like he is saying that I am a liar or that he doesnt trust my view of him). [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>
No he doesn&#8217;t trust your view of him because he doesn&#8217;t trust your motives for giving him praise. <p>Praise can be a way to build some ones self esteem. It can also be used as a reward and when that happens, it is manipulative. If praise is only given when it is &#8220;deserved&#8221; then it is a tool for manipulation. When it is used against someone who has a high external need for praise it is a powerful tool. When it is used regularly, it becomes a source of resentment. When I perceive that my W only praises me for the things SHE wants me to do, I feel abused and resentful. I would rather she didn&#8217;t give me any praise at all. I cannot trust her motives for giving it. <p>Another factor is that people who are dependent on external gratification often put their boundaries aside to get their esteem needs met. Hence, it is possible (likely) that there have been times he has set aside his own personal boundaries to try and earn your gratitude. <p>A personal example is when I fail to say something about my D&#8217;s age after my W has lied. W steps up to a ticket counter and says D is XX (looks it) but D is actually XX+1. I will stand there with my mouth shut and pay the fee. I want to say... &#8220;Sorry, she was mistaken, we actually need a junior ticket&#8221;. But that would be an LB to W. When my W does this she is abusing me. I am being forced to violate my own boundary in order to please her. I go away feeling bad. Each time she does this she is chipping away at our mutual trust. <p>In all these cases the key issue is that we are taking actions that don&#8217;t consider our spouses feelings. They may be small and not worth discussing What we don&#8217;t realize is the cumulative impact we have - or - we are not aware that they are doing things that they feel are abuse. We may even admire our spouses for doing the very things they feel violated about doing. <p>Does this make sense?

makes sense to me!!! Thanks HH!!!<p><faith1 printing and re-reading><p>that was a common "dance" in the early years of our relationship: H often said, "I can't do anything right"... I thought we resolved those issues - -> I would be less critical, and he would try to stop feeling inadequate... I think those feelings just got stuffed and the resentment built in both of us...<p>just rambling... sorry!

Replaced~<p>It's funny how when I was younger I could say "I was molested" and it didn't bother me. It really didn't bother me to say that. It would just roll off of my tongue as if I was saying "I went to the store" or whatever. Now, however, it's been like pulling teeth to be able to type it.<p>You asked this question...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Is it common for a sexually abused person to be unable to feel rage at the abuser?<hr></blockquote><p>Yes it is or at least it was so for me. I didn't feel anything for a long time. Only one of my abusers actually apologized to me (mind you, she was my aunt and she was slobbering drunk)....I felt sorry for her and I felt I OWED her forgiveness and I felt that she really hadn't done something sooooo terribly wrong to begin with. WHAT? How could I possibly feel those things....especially KNOWING that she was my mother's sister and she had an affair with my father and she had molested me. NOW I get really angry. I emailed one of the riff-raff right after the apology and my email started off with something like " The strangest thing just happened to me. I don't know how I feel about it". This very dear friend was angry...boy was she. She helped me realize that...YES...I could be angry and I had every right to be!<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>To minimize, justify, take the blame for, even stick up for the abuser?<hr></blockquote><p>Minimize. Yes, that's exactly what I did. I also took blame because of the situation....I was 13 or 14 and I had asked her if I could drive her car. She said yes (she was with me) and she asked me to pull over and I did. That's when she molested me. I tried to play it off because she was drunk and she's also bi-polar. <p>There were other members of my family who also molested me. I recently found out that my older brother was also molested by my step-grandfather. Strangely, I was IRATE over the fact that he did that to my brother. I don't recall ever feeling that way about what he did to me. <p>I haven't received any counceling for the sexual abuse but I will tell you this. I didn't willingly lose my virginity but the first time I had consentual sex it was with my first love (my huband). After we were married, I had more than one affair. I comepletely validated myself with my sexual prowess and my sexuality. I even equated sex with love concerning my husband. I still have a problem with that....he's going through a "dry-spell" (although, thankfully it's picked back up) and I felt completely unloved by him....simply because he didn't want to have sex. Even when things are on the up and up with us, I still feel that there is something blocking me and keeping me from completely letting down my guard. I just feel, oh, I don't know.......walled up.<p>I happen to think there is a VERY strong connection with sexual abuse and promiscuity (and that could even many times be related to extra-marital affairs) and why people view sex the way they do.<p>It makes me really REALLY angry that someone took me as a child and complety effed up my head. They took something from me that was so precious and pure and it CAN'T ever be gotten back. You know, sometimes I try to think about being a very young child (4 years old) and there wasn't a time in my life that I can't remember NOT being very (unhealthily) aware of my sexuality. It's just not right.<p>Sometimes I think that if I don't think about it it will just go away. But I know it won't.

I'm so sorry this happened to your husband, Replaced. I am sooo very sorry that you are being affected by this as well. It's a pity that all this shame, guilt, problems coping, etc can't just be heaped right on the shoulders of the person who did these terrible terrible things. There is no name bad enough to call them so I won't even try....but know this, I hate those people.<p>selket<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

I think it's pretty outrageous for ANY therapist to try to minimize the effects of something as monumental as childhood abuse and put it on the shelf...<p>I don't care if it is Dr Harley, or anyone...that's just totally wrong...<p>Unless I'm misunderstanding somehow?<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>